Our Rights!!!

[cipher6]

Point 1 & 2 refer to the approval process that could be set up.

Right, it COULD be set up, there are lots of cool things companies COULD do. If you think there is big enough demand for such an idea, why not start your own phone manufacturing company and implement the idea.

But just because a company doesn't go with an idea you think is cool, doesn't make them some evil corporation trying to screw you.

Point 3, yes, but I should not have to do that in the first place, none of the bloatware is a necessary component of the Android operating system so it should not be "locked".

The manufacturer warranties the device, your carrier puts on the bloatware. HTC sells phones to Verizon, who then puts the stuff on there... You should be upset with the carrier for adding the bloatware, not the manufacturer for their warranty policy.

Point 4, that is not exactly what Microsoft got sued for. They were shipping with Internet Explorer, which you could remove if you wanted

A number of videotapes were submitted as evidence by Microsoft during the trial, including one that demonstrated that removing Internet Explorer from Microsoft Windows caused slowdowns and malfunctions in Windows.

Removing iExploer was part of the issue, at first Microsoft tried to say, windows had to have explorer as part of the OS... bloatware. Point is, phone companies aren't the only ones to do this.

Point 5, that is exactly why I propose such a testing procedure. I am not asking for anything unfair or to be coddled in any way, just come up with a system that ensures everybody can set up their phone the way they want that is fair for all parties including the manufacturer and carriers.

Thats a valid argument, and I'm with you 100% and if a phone company started doing this, I would try to use them. But not doing this is not a violation of your rights.

 

[EarlyMon]

I agree there, but let me ask you this... is there bloat-ware on your phone? can you follow instructions enough to take it back to stock if you had to file a warranty claim? So whats the issue?

For me, the issue is one of elitism.

It requires some legerdemain to root a phone to remove that bloatware. An addition cost is added for the user to obtain an app that will safely freeze rather than remove that bloatware. Additional skills and possibly a not-small amount of time are required to surf the net and to then find what's safe to remove.

Then - the rooting must be performed in such a way that doesn't impact all radio functions. For many phones, this requires unlocking the bootloader, a permanent act that cannot be covered up.

And then there's the issue of now relying on the dev community for further updates once rooted.

And that's just to run the stock rom without bloatware.

And then there's the issue of your phone going dark, you can't attempt recover to a previous state, you take it in to find that it was easily fixable, but is no longer warrantied.

Why can't Joe Blow and Sally Nally just be able to remove bloatware without all of the skills involved in that elitism? They certainly can on their desktop machines.

The bloatware is advertising back to the carriers. Some percentage will try it. Some percentage will use it. That's a small percentage, but it's still a big number, so it's highly profitable.

I don't advocate removing that potential revenue stream from the carriers and the software firms and whomever else is in that foodchain. Why bite the hand of my suppliers?

I simply advocate freedom from elitism for those who would not opt to spend their money in that foodchain.

That's a win-win for everyone.

Then - anyone wanting to root and play performance / feature gains - fine. You're off the reservation by your own choice.

Bloatware removes choice from consumers and creates a caste system among users.

For my point of view, both of those are fundamentally wrong things to happen in an appliance marketplace - all else is secondary.

 

[nlsme]

If the entire arguement is about bloat, maybe you should. Look into the iphone. Google has expressly stated that "open" is for the manufacturer to do as they please, and doesnt apply to the end consumer. With that comes the fact that there is money to be made by forcing bloat on you. Apple takes a completely different approach.

 

[Pepe7698]

There may be some confusion over what a warranty legally consists of. A warranty is designed to protect against failure due to MANUFACTURER defect in either materials or workmanship. Using the car warranty example - it does not cover any failure due to wear & tear, improper use, unauthorized modification or failure to properly maintain your vehicle. What a manufacturer can consider improper use or improper modification is very, very broad. Read the warranty manual in the last vehicle you purchased - it is worded specifically to give the manufacturer an out. Dealerships must first diagnose the cause of the failure before they can apply for a warranty repair - and the manufacturer can refuse it. I have seen cases where the manufacturer has sent out one of their own people to evaluate a warranty claim if they do not trust the dealerships assesment. And this is considering most mechanics have years of schooling and on the job training so they can see what may or may not have caused the failure.

There is no reliable way for a on site tech to determine if you did something to roast your phone. I can understand why they are skittish about allowing modification. Do I like it, not really; but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. As the market sits, this is where we are at. Of course, full purchase price only on phones w/ no recourse to the seller would probably alleviate it. How many people are willing to pay full retail for these phone w/ no guarantee it would be supported.

Using the car analogy again: everyone wants to drive Bugattis, but pay for Civics.

 

[EarlyMon]

Interesting that an iPhone appear as an option in an Android discussion as being a less elitist solution.

As I stated - give people the option to remove it like they do on their desktops.

That would drive the impetus for rooting down, imo.

Anyone left would be free to root and lose warranty.

It's not a technical issue - it's a political one. The bloatware is tagged as system software, rather than the simple application software it truly is.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Of course, full purchase price only on phones w/ no recourse to the seller would probably alleviate it. How many people are willing to pay full retail for these phone w/ no guarantee it would be supported.

Unfortunately we don't even have this option, even at full price you are still stuck with the bloatware.

 

[Pepe7698]

Nexus One offered this; didn't it. I actually considered it; but was scared off by reports of random screen cracks. As sales figures go - wasn't it an utter failure. Very cool phone, I actually regret that I didn't pony up for one when it was available. Then again, history may show that the Nexus One sales model was just too far ahead of its time to be succesful.

 

[cipher6]

If the entire arguement is about bloat, maybe you should. Look into the iphone. Google has expressly stated that "open" is for the manufacturer to do as they please, and doesnt apply to the end consumer. With that comes the fact that there is money to be made by forcing bloat on you. Apple takes a completely different approach.

THERE is your answer. Instead of crying about how your rights were violated by a company selling you a product you don't like 100%, why not buy a different product? Boycott Android and Google until they force carries to keep bloatware off their phones.

Interesting that an iPhone appear as an option in an Android discussion as being a less elitist solution.

Its not elitism, its business, thats how it works. If you don't like what company A is selling, you go buy what company B is selling.

As I stated - give people the option to remove it like they do on their desktops.

I agree, thats a feature I would like... so is a HDMI jack on my incredible... Its not a violation of my rights that they don't offer that.

It's not a technical issue - it's a political one. The bloatware is tagged as system software, rather than the simple application software it truly is.

Its a business issue, the carriers think they can get more revenue out of bloatware than making people happy by giving them the ability to remove pre-installed apps.

It requires some legerdemain to root a phone to remove that bloatware. An addition cost is added for the user to obtain an app that will safely freeze rather than remove that bloatware. Additional skills and possibly a not-small amount of time are required to surf the net and to then find what's safe to remove.

And if I want to mod my car, it requires special knowledge and maybe money.

And then there's the issue of your phone going dark, you can't attempt recover to a previous state, you take it in to find that it was easily fixable, but is no longer warrantied.

Which is why HTC will not warranty a phone you've altered to remove what Verizon put on it.

The bloatware is advertising back to the carriers. Some percentage will try it. Some percentage will use it. That's a small percentage, but it's still a big number, so it's highly profitable.

I don't advocate removing that potential revenue stream from the carriers and the software firms and whomever else is in that foodchain. Why bite the hand of my suppliers?

Thats what giving the ability to easily remove blaotware would do. Its there for a reason, it makes them more money... If enough people get pissed about it, and start changing carriers because of bloatware they would stop. But as it is, I think its only the technically inclined (who can easily remove it on their own) who get upset about bloatware in the first place.

Why can't Joe Blow and Sally Nally just be able to remove bloatware without all of the skills involved in that elitism? They certainly can on their desktop machines.

I know many computer users who wouldn't know how to remove pre-installed software, don't know why they should, and have probably never thought twice about pre-installed software on the PC or phone.

Fact is, it only bugs a small percentage of smart phone users.

I simply advocate freedom from elitism for those who would not opt to spend their money in that foodchain.

That's a win-win for everyone.

Not if everyone just removes their apps and never tries them. Give the ability to easily remove and the amount of people using them and their revenue from it, goes down.

Bloatware removes choice from consumers and creates a caste system among users.

Yes, it removes choices, but the "caste system" of technical knowledge existed long before bloatware. Using your logic I could say, HTC and Verizon is violating our rights by not allowing me to change the color of the clock in my notifications. Its giving me less choice, and creates a "caste system" of people who know how to mod and change the color and those that don't

 

[byteware]

Guess I didn't word that correctly, they can't make you sign something requiring you to use only their products. It is illegal for them to require you to use a certain brand of products for vehicle maintenance or repair. The parts just need to meet certain criteria.

Could you explain which law bars them from making that a requirement?

 

[EarlyMon]

Yes, it removes choices, but the "caste system" of technical knowledge existed long before bloatware. Using your logic I could say, HTC and Verizon is violating our rights by not allowing me to change the color of the clock in my notifications. Its giving me less choice, and creates a "caste system" of people who know how to mod and change the color and those that don't

Well, you could say that except for the fact that I didn't say my rights were being violated anywhere here.

I do say that our consumer rights are being abused.

And the choices when that happens, is to vote with your feet as you say - or to seek consumer protection.

The caste system in technology did indeed exist long before this. As a past kernel and OS developer, parallel programming solution developer since the early '80s, and a member of the semiconductor industry, I'm at a higher level caste.

And it's simply my opinion that that's all unnecessary here because we're talking about a phone, where the only caste system should be one of economics of choice of plan and device - and not one of technical know-how.

 

[mikedt]

Dell can't void your warranty because you made changes to the operating system on your computer.

That might all depend on where you buy your computer...
Welcome to TechNewsWorld ... Best Buy seem to think otherwise.

"The manager of the Geek Squad informed me that installing Ubuntu Linux on my machine voided my warranty, and that I could only have it serviced if the original Windows installation was restored,"

 

[ASCI Blue]

with the car thing most aftermarket bits will void a warranty if the techs in question can convince themselves it does. I had an electrical issue a while back but also have an aftermarket deck. I yanked the aftermarket and put the stocker back. car got serviced even with an aftermarket amp/sub and different interior lighting cause my issue was a specific module issue.

however if my deck had been the cause of the failure they'd have been able void the warranty in that regard and I'd have had to pay for the module and labor to get it fixed.

the oil thing is interesting too, VW has specific requirements. in theory if their approved oil wasn't used and the engine falls apart no warranty work.

 

[mikedt]

I don't think that one can really compare computers with cars and phones. Change the operating software on a computer, in theory no harm can be done with this.

Change the operating software on a phone. It might well invalidate operating approvals and could even cause problems with the networks.

Change the operating software on a car's ECU. Well there is a whole load of potential problems here, type approvals, emissions, excessive fuel consumption, blown head-gaskets, thrown con-rods, seized big-ends, etc. etc. Non of which will be under warranty, if it can be proved that unauthorised software changes to the ECU was the cause.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Could you explain which law bars them from making that a requirement?

The Magnuson Moss Act is one, there are other federal and state laws covering this as well.

An auto manufacturer can not void your warranty for the use of aftermarket parts if those parts meet the specifications of the oem or other governing body.

Technically, they can't void your warranty for adding an EPA approved chip to your cars ECM although this one is hotly contended by the manufacturers(or at least as recent as the 90's when I worked in a performance shop). The catch here is there have been a precious few to gain that EPA approval.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

That might all depend on where you buy your computer...
Welcome to TechNewsWorld ... Best Buy seem to think otherwise.

"The manager of the Geek Squad informed me that installing Ubuntu Linux on my machine voided my warranty, and that I could only have it serviced if the original Windows installation was restored,"

You are also refereing to a particular group of idiots who have very little actual knowledge of the systems they work on. I have a friend who works for Perot Systems as a systems manager , which is a government contractor (recently bought out by Dell), a Geek Squad idiot tried arguing with her that she should get a Celeron in her laptop because it was a much more robust processor than the Core 2 Duo and far better for business applications!

For anybody that wishes to avoid it, that is store number 125 in San Antonio.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

with the car thing most aftermarket bits will void a warranty if the techs in question can convince themselves it does. I had an electrical issue a while back but also have an aftermarket deck. I yanked the aftermarket and put the stocker back. car got serviced even with an aftermarket amp/sub and different interior lighting cause my issue was a specific module issue.

however if my deck had been the cause of the failure they'd have been able void the warranty in that regard and I'd have had to pay for the module and labor to get it fixed.

the oil thing is interesting too, VW has specific requirements. in theory if their approved oil wasn't used and the engine falls apart no warranty work.

The deal is no manufacturer can prevent an aftermarket from producing a product, oil in this case, that meets the specifications. I believe that Castrol, Valvoline, Penzoil, Quaker State, Mobile, Amsoil and possibly Royal Purple and Red Line produce oil that meets those specifications.

There was a similar issue right around 2000 where Dodge began using ATF+4, which no aftermarket was making because they weren't openly sharing the formula. They went so far as to do a retroactive technical service bulletin making it the only approved fluid for many of their vehicles from the past 10 years and guess what, they were the only source. It did not take long before the aftermarkets started producing it.

I don't think that one can really compare computers with cars and phones. Change the operating software on a computer, in theory no harm can be done with this.

Change the operating software on a phone. It might well invalidate operating approvals and could even cause problems with the networks.

Change the operating software on a car's ECU. Well there is a whole load of potential problems here, type approvals, emissions, excessive fuel consumption, blown head-gaskets, thrown con-rods, seized big-ends, etc. etc. Non of which will be under warranty, if it can be proved that unauthorised software changes to the ECU was the cause.

I am using generalizations to make the point.

 

[cipher6]

Well, you could say that except for the fact that I didn't say my rights were being violated anywhere here.

I do say that our consumer rights are being abused.

Abused, violated, same thing... you don't have a "right" to dictate what HTC warranties or what software they load on their devices and sell you. If you don't like it don't buy it.

And the choices when that happens, is to vote with your feet as you say - or to seek consumer protection.

Consumer protection from what exactly? A product you don't like 100%? There is nothing for you to be protected from. You don't like bloatware, fine... I don't like the color of the clock in the notification bar, but there is nothing to be protected from.

And it's simply my opinion that that's all unnecessary here because we're talking about a phone, where the only caste system should be one of economics of choice of plan and device - and not one of technical know-how.

My wife has a Droid and knows 0 about computers and technology. Works fine for her, never had problems, and I never once heard her complain about apps she didn't like and couldn't get rid of... Not sure she even knows she can uninstall apps.

You don't need technical knowledge to own a smart phone. You only need it to remove bloatware, which you don't even know what bloatware is or why you would want to remove it unless you have some technical knowledge.


-----

Lets look at it like this...


I don't like the clock color. HTC should warranty my phone if I root it and flash the OS to change the color of the clock. People shouldn't have to have special knowledge just to change the clock color. Its their phone let them do what they want with it... I can change the colors on my PC.

They could set up a system (that costs money) where they review and approve aftermarket OSs that people can put on their phone so they can change the clock color.

By not allowing us to change the color of our clock, its limited our choices and abusing my rights, so I want to seek consumer protections.


Replace clock color with remove bloatware and thats your argument... sounds kinda silly huh?



ps: I agree with you about the annoyance of bloatware. And you came up with some cool ideas that I would LOVE to see a manufacturer implement. It could open up a whole other industry of after market OSs. You buy a phone then buy an approved OS that fits your style, that would be awesome. I'm with you 100% until you start saying you have some right being abuse or violated because you don't agree with the warranty policy or what features they put on the phone they sold you.

 

[EarlyMon]

OK - let's be clear - Samurai is discussing the warranty issue with other roms. I'm not on the same of the fence with him. As I'd mentioned, if you install a custom rom, you've made a choice to leave the reservation - meaning, you chose to take an action that voided your warranty over a _preference_ - like a clock color, or kernel performance or whatever.

I'm making a case for a simple user-capable system to lock down or remove bloatware without rooting that could be vendor supported by changing an existing flag in the apks in question back to normal - they are not system files, that's what's set that is locking them down.

In many cases, those apks can have a negative effect on users that do not want them. My idea makes everyone's life easier in the long run - less rooting, less support, fewer complaints, fewer people shopping elsewhere for their second choice.

And, I'm granting your example out of principle - you can replace clocks with one of other colors without rooting or voiding a warranty - but for the sake of clarity, let's pretend that your example holds - an example is an example, I understood your point.

They - the carrier/maker combo, who can be sure - have taken an action profitable in their eyes that is causing consumer issues. I still believe it's abusive to paint some people into a corner where their only choices are another phone, maybe another carrier, or void their warranty - over something as easily remedied as bloatware. There's no _reasonable_ way that _reasonable_ consumers can foresee the consequences of some bloatware, no matter how good shoppers they are or how much fine print they read ahead of time. It's for that reason that I find this an abuse of consumer rights.

Carriers already have another mechanism to move forward and mine's done it. I removed Qik as bloatware. In a market update at one point, I got a new Sprint tab that allowed _exciting updates_ to their bloatware - including Qik. So - it's either a user-level apk that is vended in the market freely - or it's a system apk - they ought not try to present them as both.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Nokia turned a blind eye to custom firmwares as it didn't affect the HW problem

of course, I could remove my touchscreen driver and pretend I had HW fault

 

[Pepe7698]

Magnuson-Moss does not specify exactly what can or cannot be covered in any prticular product. It only sets clear guidelines of can be considered a warranty (full or limited) how to diclosure said warranties and what remedies are available. Now states may have different regulations that must be met.

By the way, adding any aftermarket part can void a warranty. Anything that allows it to operate any different from what the manufacturer intended can void a warranty. That applies to any product; cars, toasters, or phones.

 

[ElasticNinja]

changing a HDD or Mini PCI-e accessory in a laptop would not void warantee

 

[byteware]

changing a HDD or Mini PCI-e accessory in a laptop would not void warantee

Actually, it very much can.

 

[AngryHatter]

I have been thinking of late, why is it the carriers and phone manufacturers are held to a different standard than other companies? Really, if you buy a car and change any component they are not allowed to void your warranty if it is an EPA approved part, they can't void it for running different oil as long as it meets API specifications, or more on target Dell can't void your warranty because you made changes to the operating system on your computer. Somebody please explain to me why Sprint, ATT, Verizon and T-Mobile can!

Yes, that is a somewhat rhetorical question, I understand the motivation behind it, the all mighty dollar. They want their precious apps protected, want, no expect me to use those apps, never mind the fact that I couldn't give a flying flip about Nascar or the NFL. I paid for it, I want the phone to be equipped and run the way I think it should!

Once again, I have been giving it some thought. Look at the number of Android (and yes, even iPhone) users out there, look at the number of sites devoted to Android. If we could get together and let our voices be heard we might actually get some recognition in Washington, maybe even some regulations passed!

Don't get me wrong, if you brick your phone while rooting you should be S.O.L., but if you are like most and can successfully follow instructions, accomplish this task and end up with a stable operating phone I don't think we should have to be worried whether or not we will be able to get warranty service or insurance replacement.

If the carriers want to fully subsidize our phones or go on a lease program, then more power to them. If, however, we have to pay at all for the phones then we should be able to do as we please with them.

I think we should get the other forums involved, get all our voices together and see if we can get something done about this!

Wait...someone wants MORE regulations passed?
Good luck.

While I do understand your point, I disagree about the phone - although I do agree with more regulation on general.
(It has historic perspective - AT&T used to own the equipment - i.e. the phone - you owned nothing)

My guitars all are very explicit in explaining, modify this and the warranty is null and void. This has been my rant against Apple for years - proprietary and expensive. So I vote with my pocketbook. I don't own Apple stuff.

Courts are just beginning to grapple with the electronic age - are emails private between husband and wife? et cetera.
I suspect this would occupy a back burner.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Actually, it very much can.

if you stab the MB with the screwdriver

 

[byteware]

if you stab the MB with the screwdriver

Or the HardDrive causes a fault in the system. Or the Motherboard HardDrive power circuit fries.

Anything that could have been caused by YOUR changes will not be covered under warranty (and after that point, the warranty would be voided).