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Our Rights!!!

SamuraiBigEd said:
Sorry Stinky, it was a joke. There was nothing wrong with your post and any input is appreciated.
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Naah it's not ur mistake dude. It's not ur fault. I shouldn't be so damn sensitive anyway.

It's not ur fault at all. And i am sorry to all if i cannot control myself... i really need to control that.

I have not had a good time lately and growing up here has made me well slightly intolerant of some things and i get tired of all the crap everyday.... but that's no reason / excuse to take it out on others at all anyway.

anywayz...

To get back to the main topic,

@ copeStag,

Ja maybe it is too much to call it a human rights violation, but i hope everyone might agree that is very wrong when every (i'd say about 99%) of all cellphone manufacturers won't put the Aerial outside of the cellphone so you can replace it urself... they used to do this with every cellphone back in the day...

And don't tell me you need to be a rocket scientist to replace it. Cause then we would all need to have permits / papers to just brush our damn teeth...

It's wrong and the human race is going backwards when they (companies) do this.

We should be going forward not backwards. I might be going into troubled waters by what i am about to say... but the world is filled with fools and idiots and they don't even realize what's going on half the time. In fact they don't even care... and that's the worst part of it all...

Anywayz i understand it's not a violation of human rights... but it's starting to get there.

And why don't they make it modular? I know everyone says it's because it makes it cheaper... well you know what??

It makes it A LOT more expensive when you have to replace an entire cellphone every 2 years to upgrade instead of just replacing the CPU or something else instead of upgrading. It will save you a fortune instead... but no... they want to milk you for everything you have. And a cellphone is now a necessity... you have to have one to survive. It is a safety device. And no You can't tell me you don't need one nowdays. That's insane.

Once again i apologize for my rudeness and yes i should be more tolerant. Sorry.
 
@ copestag

And who's talking about bloated firmware thats a problem anywayz? Yes it is destructive but it doesn't matter actually:

IF everything was modular / replaceable then you could just replace the ENTIRE whole damn EPROM / ROM urself and put what ever operating system you want on there anyway without the worry for bloatware so that's the end of that discussion... anywayz... i have my point of view and it won't change unless i am givin good reason to change my point of view.

Anywayz...
 
Copestag,
The violation of human rights was in the lockdown of the system and thus stating that you void trhe warranty of you modify it in anyway. It had nothing to do with bloatware.

Let's use your shoe example. If there is a warranty on all parts of the shoe, you shave off the bottom part of the shoe bothering you, and your shoelace just snaps, would/should your warranty be denied? No... Certainly it isn't a HUMAN right, but it seems to be some sort of right. Perhaps the word usage wasn't completely appropriate for the matter at hand.
 
Stinky Stinky said:
IF[/U] everything was modular / replaceable then you could just replace the ENTIRE whole damn EPROM / ROM urself and put what ever operating system you want on there anyway without the worry for bloatware so that's the end of that discussion... anywayz... i have my point of view and it won't change unless i am givin good reason to change my point of view.
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Again, this would be a complete and utter failure due to the costs involved. Nobody would be buying the product becuase it would be a clunky, huge handset with potentially lower specs than the competitors at a giant markup. We are used to phones that cost about $200 to manufacture, thus retailing at $500-$700. Can you imagine what a phone that costs $400 in parts to manufacture would actually cost to build?
 
lordofthereef said:
Again, this would be a complete and utter failure due to the costs involved. Nobody would be buying the product becuase it would be a clunky, huge handset with potentially lower specs than the competitors at a giant markup. We are used to phones that cost about $200 to manufacture, thus retailing at $500-$700. Can you imagine what a phone that costs $400 in parts to manufacture would actually cost to build?
Click to expand...

Hmm no i disagree with you buddy and no offence.

Just like PC's it is much cheaper to change / upgrade 1 or 2 parts every now and then when they get old instead of changing the whole cell phone out for a whole / entire new one.

Do you see what i am trying to say?

It is cheaper to not keep on "upgrading" the whole thing and just replace some parts every now and then do you see what i mean? It will be much cheaper in the long run instead of "just tomorrow" kind of behaviour.

And about the size.... i don't really mind if it is slightly bigger... that can be overcome because computers are always getting smaller... Do you remember how big computers were in the good ol days? They were the size of entire city blocks.... it's great to see evolution happen and us going foward so that won't be an issue someday...someday it won't be an issue...

And about the price....all modern day PC's parts are 120% reaplceable... and laptops are getting there... Modern day desktops are like this and it's because it's actually cheaper in the long run... Imagine if you would be forced to keep changing your whole computer out every time do you see what i mean lordofthereef dude? That is the true definition of theft in motion by the cellphone manufacturers...

And to answer your "it will have lower specs problem":

This is what evolution is all about. Trying to do the impossible and make it better and not making it worse for everyone. We should be going fowards not backwards... do you see what i mean buddy? Computers were massive / gigantic in size and very weak in power so that won't be a problem.... someday we will make computers much better and faster than before and smaller than before do you see?....

And i really do think it really is starting to border on human rights. It's getting there...

And i will be on my best behaviour this time round instead of being a jerk like last time. So i will keep my cool this time. Hopefully at least.
 
EarlyMon said:
Not sure how one does it unless rooted.
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can't you flash the the boot.img in recovery?
that's how I changed mine

EDIT: most of my friends who have rooted have no intention of going further (custom kernels)
Also if you screw it up you can still boot into recovery, my phone has two
 
Don't get where everyone blab my human rights are violated. You are buying a product and that manufacturer gives the device and not you a warranty. You modify anything on the phone from its original format then it violates the device warranty.

Its funny when someone disagrees with a company or government. The first thing they yell is they violated my rights. They say this because they know there is nothing else they can say to justify their dislike. People needs to realize their freedoms and rights come with limitations. I can Jay walk if I feel like it. I can't exceed the speed limit because I feel its my right. Its the company rules and their device.

So if you don't like it then make your own device they way you like it. Then manufacture it and sell it. That is one thing that is your right to do.
 
EarlyMon said:
Everyone didn't blab it, Stinky did, he's from South Africa and has had been set upon with freedom issues of late.
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Alright my apologies to all.

But it's not as of late EarlyMon... sadly i have had this issue since day 1 and have a very hard time controling it. This country has low freedom and i am sensitive about it sometimes my bad :(

Anywayz, sorry if i hurt anyones feelings. I think it would be wise if i stayed out of this conversation, any way i am too baised when it comes to this type of topic! :)
 
lordofthereef said:
Again, this would be a complete and utter failure due to the costs involved. Nobody would be buying the product becuase it would be a clunky, huge handset with potentially lower specs than the competitors at a giant markup. We are used to phones that cost about $200 to manufacture, thus retailing at $500-$700. Can you imagine what a phone that costs $400 in parts to manufacture would actually cost to build?
Click to expand...


I disagree that the current generation of smart phones (iPhone, Inc, whatever) cost $200 to manufacture. I doubt they cost $50 to manufacture, including the pennies per hour the workers who are involved in putting them together make.
 
ok, is it a human rights violation that I can't replace the motor in my blender?

Its not a human rights violation, or any kind of rights violation that a company didn't sell you a product will all the bells, whistles, and customization options you wanted.

Yes, open source hardware phones would be cool... but there are lots of hurtles to overcome. Technical/Affordability/Legal etc...


I think we need to keep this in the relam of reality and keep everything in perspective. Not getting options you wanted on your phone IS NOT a human rights violation. Taking that angle will just make us look like idiots.

Now, bloatware, some enterprising lawyer, might at some point, see the feasibly of a class action lawsuit for some of that. For unwanted apps, that have nothing to do with the system, and cause problems, like lessen battery life, uncontrollable data usage etc. It might be a tough fight, but a class action suit, might be able to put an end to that.

Also, if enough users make enough noise, they can force a change... but you've got to make a lot of noise, and show how it hurts their bottom line... like people jumping to other OS or carrier to get away from it.

For example, if it could be shown many people ditched an HTC device for an iPhone because of what Verizon or Sprint load up after the fact, they might take steps to keep the carriers from loading up that stuff.

There doesn't need to be any new laws, no rights have been violated, this is how the marketplace works. If enough people demand a product, ie. smart phones with no bloatware, someone will supply that product to make money.


I think the first step is one of education. How many non-technically inclined smart phone owners do you know? How many of them know what bloatware is, or if its even messing with their system. I think first off, if your pushing for a change, is to educate people about what bloatware is, what it does, why its there, and the over all pros and cons of it all. A small group of technically inclined people isn't gonna make an impact. Its when they get average Joe and grandma Bee, calling in complaining some app won't stop running and is sucking battery life etc. that it will make an impact.
 
hakr100 said:
I disagree that the current generation of smart phones (iPhone, Inc, whatever) cost $200 to manufacture. I doubt they cost $50 to manufacture, including the pennies per hour the workers who are involved in putting them together make.
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I don't remember the exact figure, but it is in the neighborhood of $130 to manufacture. There is a website that disassembles products and does a cost analysis to find out what they cost to produce and they have done the Evo and iPhone both.
 
I wish there were no network customised firmwares, rather instead, upon first connection to network, the networks changes are installed to /Data free of charge
Preferably optional
makes more sense
 
lordofthereef said:
Agreed. So then the issue here is how does the company protect itself without making the owner of their product feel like it is a violation of their rights?
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Good query. More to the point, what rights as cell phone owners do you all think are inviolable and what rights do the providers absolutely have the right to claim?

Nothing can be settled if everyone has a different idea so what do you all think?

Do you all think each company should be forced to offer a rooted and cell phone by law and at a reasonable cost or perhaps the same cost?

Bob Maxey
 
SamuraiBigEd said:
To summarize my position, I do not advocate free run rooting and rom'ing while maintaining warranty coverage. I do support a manufacturer/carrier based approval system which would include the ability to flash a rom that contained the proper "approval key".
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Sounds good, but then aren't we still at the mercy of a company that might not approve the ROMs we want to use? To be fair to one and all, we should be allowed to use any ROM but under your system, we might not be able to do so unless approved.

Unless I miss your point.

I do understand the worries over bad ROMS and problems that can occur when one roots, hence, some sort of approval might be a good idea.

Perhaps we should consider taking it one step at a time and make carriers either provide phones with root access or a utility available on the carrier's web site that will allow root access. And plenty of warnings to tell the rooter the potential problems and ways to (hopefully) avoid them.

Give the average non-technical Joe access to root and there is a chance something bad will happen and it is not the carrier's fault, so I am not sure it should be covered. I'll consider opposing views if you think I am wrong.

Bob Maxey
 
Ok guys..

There are few things I want to say on this.

First, I am disgusted someone actually flat out said "if bloatware is a problem, go to the iphone!"

You mean to tell me that in OPEN SOURCE, you shouldn't have control over what you can do with your own phone? what kind of chopped up backwards logic is that?

Yes, part of what is sold on any given android phone is not open source and I am well aware of this.

There is still no logical reason that I should not be allowed to remove totally unrelated software from my phone just because the company doesn't want me to.

Second, IDGAF whether I pay full price for the phone OR I sign a contract.

Either way you look at it the company is going to make their losses from that phone up during my contract.

*IF* I cancel my contract, I have to pay a termination fee which means, yet again the company recovers its losses.

As far as I am concerned, once I sign that contract, that phone is by all rights mine to do with what I want.

Moving on in this argument.

Why should I *NOT* have root access to my phone?

Why does my phone *NOT* come with root access enabled?

I buy a computer, I have windows and I have access to programs which could brick my cpu by pushing it out of spec.

We can discuss what someone "could" do all day long given administrative access on a phone or computer.

Superuser is very powerful, therefore very dangerous.

However, if we go back to the dell example.

If I buy a dell and install linux, then here is how I see it.

If something goes wrong software wise, I have forfeited my right to receive help in the form of the dell helpdesk.

If something goes wrong with the hardware, I still have a warranty on that machine because, the parts are still suppose to work so long as I am not overclocking or something

Yes, flashing a bios will void you warranty if it is a custom bios.

However, installing linux doesn't mean I lose my warranty on my HDD.

When it comes to phones we can discuss all of the possible dangers of what "could" happen with your phone.

However, computer manufacturers don't discriminate (within reason) to what you did with your hardware...

You void your right to ask for help if you decide to run linux but, if you decide you want to run linux, you are probably intelligent enough to troubleshoot and fix your own problem should you have one.

I fail to see why my phone should be any different.

If I overclock it and fry it, my bad.

If in 2 months everyone who has had my particular phone for 6 months or so starts saying their screen is dead, and their phone is chanting "EI EI CTHLULHU FTAGHN, and pictures of a creature with a scaly green man like body with long out stretched dragon wings and tentacles covering its face are appearing at odd intervals on the dead screen.

I think that it isn't too much to ask for a new phone when it happens to mine if everyone else is reporting the same problem rooted or un rooted.

Why should I not be allowed to have total control over software on my phone?

There is a linpack app out.. I don't see any indication it requires root.

You could hypothetically overheat your phone using that alone and if it doesn't require root..

Then it completely defeats the point some user made earlier about faulty code overheating the GPS...

My views are that if it doesn't push hardware settings outside of spec, then fair game to use it.

I mean my point is when you boot linux on the dell, you make the assumption its not going to kill your hard drive or anything else.

If your hard drive physically dies, the manufacturer doesn't say "well hypothetically it could have been the fact that you loaded dos that killed your os!"

I say as long as I don't use software to oc or something along those lines.. there is no logical reason my warranty should be voided.
 
Bob Maxey said:
Sounds good, but then aren't we still at the mercy of a company that might not approve the ROMs we want to use? To be fair to one and all, we should be allowed to use any ROM but under your system, we might not be able to do so unless approved.

Unless I miss your point.

I do understand the worries over bad ROMS and problems that can occur when one roots, hence, some sort of approval might be a good idea.

Perhaps we should consider taking it one step at a time and make carriers either provide phones with root access or a utility available on the carrier's web site that will allow root access. And plenty of warnings to tell the rooter the potential problems and ways to (hopefully) avoid them.

Give the average non-technical Joe access to root and there is a chance something bad will happen and it is not the carrier's fault, so I am not sure it should be covered. I'll consider opposing views if you think I am wrong.

Bob Maxey
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You make good point, but if the rom you want to use pushes the hardware past its rated specs then it should not be approved to retain warranty coverage. If something you do causes the damage then you should not be covered, if however you load a stable working rom that operates within parameters then you should not be penalized, that is the point I am trying to make. That and getting rid of bloatware.
 
Seriously, a phone manufacturer isn't going to warranty hardware running software they didn't write. Pure and simple.
 
cipher6 said:
Seriously, a phone manufacturer isn't going to warranty hardware running software they didn't write. Pure and simple.
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Why not? If it is a derivative of the stock software and operates within the given hardware parameters there is no reason whatsoever it should not be warrantied. Even if it is another OS entirely, like the Windows/Linux examples made so far, if it works within specification there should be no problem.
 
SamuraiBigEd said:
Why not? If it is a derivative of the stock software and operates within the given hardware parameters there is no reason whatsoever it should not be warrantied. Even if it is another OS entirely, like the Windows/Linux examples made so far, if it works within specification there should be no problem.
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Simple, it's an expense that doesn't generate revenue.

Setting up a system to review custom ROMs and figure out which ones are stable enough costs money. There are also legal issues, if you approve a rom, and it screws up someone's phone, or someone sneaks a trojan in there and steals peoples bank accounts, the manufacturer is gonna get be liable as well.

Even if the manufacturer just allowed root, that would create a lot of support calls from people running into issues, and those support calls cost money.

Even if they didn't support anything, but allowed root and roms and only warranted hardware. It would cost more money to investigate to determine if it was hardware defect or software pushed it too far. I many cases there would be no way to accurately make that determination.


Anything like that costs them more money, and if they don't think that functionality will generate enough income from new sales to pay for the cost plus a bit of profit, its not something thats going to get done.

And face it, we are a minority, the majority of smart phone owners don't want to learn the nuts and bolts, flash custom firmware, and custom kernels.
 
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