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Putting to rest the myths about Task Killers/RAM Optimizers and the like

@talupia , did you install Clean Master yourself? If so, then you should be able to remove it and the likelihood of being pre-installed is very slim. At this point, a factory reset seems the most prudent course of action. Remember to back up all your data that you want to save. I have a little tutorial here to make sure you've got everything you want to save.

When that's done, the first thing you want to do look for Clean Master on your phone before you connect to any networks. Remember that if you have your phone set to backup apps and data it will begin pushing them to your phone after a reset as soon as you register with your Google account. If it's not there, you should be good. If it is there, you are going to need to either root your phone or flash other firmware.
 
EarlyMon said:
I've checked and can't find another case like yours. :(

What phone do you have?

Depending on the model, a factory data reset may be in order.

Not all malware can be detected, only that which is known.

Not being able to uninstall Clean Master sounds insidious.
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my phone is a samsung galaxy s4 in my carrier is Verizon. The app did not come installed on my phone. What I did was go to the Verizon store and talk to their guys. They were not able to uninstall it either so they did a factory reset. That finally got rid of it. I was glad to get it off my phone because I was concerned that it was malware. I don't think it improved my phone performance at all that and Battery Doctor actually made it worse. Thank you so much for your suggestions and comments. I really appreciate it
 
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My phone seems faster after a reboot. I thought managed java code was supposed to do automatic garbage collection and free memory. Although it's possible that the system hasn't released the memory yet (caching recent apps) and I'm switching apps quickly.
 
Nintendo1889 said:
My phone seems faster after a reboot. I thought managed java code was supposed to do automatic garbage collection and free memory. Although it's possible that the system hasn't released the memory yet (caching recent apps) and I'm switching apps quickly.
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Garbage collection did improve in Gingerbread, dramatically.

But all garbage collection does is properly take care of allocated memory that the dev later de-allocated.

If a dev lets his app core leak - or if some underlying service is core leaking (uselessly growing in memory due to improper coding) - then no garbage collection can fix that.

Far too many apps may fall into that category, and if that's your experience, then an occasional reboot is the best way to attack that - especially if one of the libraries is doing it, in which case, it may be the only way to clear it.
 
Thanks for the link EarlyMon. I started reading this thread and then lost it and im lazy with the search bar. I have absolutely no problem posting out in public instead of using PM, I simply notice that there is an ettiquit about where to post and am often unsure. I realize that it has to do with organization and neatness, accessability of info for for those who end up at the forums for a random search, but it is daunting at times. Sometimes you just wanna ask stuff ya know :) ?

To the meat of my question which I am sure does belong in this general area. I understand from this thread and previous reading that android self maintains, and does not require task killing or defrag (one of the first things I learned as I grew with android....cuz I thought those things were neccessary) but what I dont understand is why these apps come to be in the first place. I understand why undereducated folks will buy them, but not why ppl will MAKE them (make the apps that is). And how on earth they get into the Play Store? Surely Google is aware that these apps are snake oil, because the follks that approve such apps are surely knowledgable in how Android works!? I had intended to ask about a particular app that I use (which is a multipurpose swiss army knife) but then i realized that when it "cleans memory" it is doing what you are talking about.... snake oiling. The other tools seem to work legitamately though and are for much more mundane/less system invasive purposes.

I now have to go back through this thread and hit "like" a bunch of times on a bunch of separate posts. Theres good info in here !
 
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knoober said:
Thanks for the link EarlyMon. I started reading this thread and then lost it and im lazy with the search bar. I have absolutely no problem posting out in public instead of using PM, I simply notice that there is an ettiquit about where to post and am often unsure. I realize that it has to do with organization and neatness, accessability of info for for those who end up at the forums for a random search, but it is daunting at times. Sometimes you just wanna ask stuff ya know :) ?

To the meat of my question which I am sure does belong in this general area. I understand from this thread and previous reading that android self maintains, and does not require task killing or defrag (one of the first things I learned as I grew with android....cuz I thought those things were neccessary) but what I dont understand is why these apps come to be in the first place. I understand why undereducated folks will buy them, but not why ppl will MAKE them (make the apps that is). And how on earth they get into the Play Store? Surely Google is aware that these apps are snake oil, because the follks that approve such apps are surely knowledgable in how Android works!? I had intended to ask about a particular app that I use (which is a multipurpose swiss army knife) but then i realized that when it "cleans memory" it is doing what you are talking about.... snake oiling. The other tools seem to work legitamately though and are for much more mundane/less system invasive purposes.

I now have to go back through this thread and hit "like" a bunch of times on a bunch of separate posts. Theres good info in here !
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I think they are around for the pre-gingerbread users, based on what you and earlymon said.

Perhaps an app that detects memory leaks or apps that are no longer running, but did not deallocate their memory?
 
Nintendo1889 said:
I think they are around for the pre-gingerbread users, based on what you and earlymon said.

Perhaps an app that detects memory leaks or apps that are no longer running, but did not deallocate their memory?
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Once an app terminates under proper control, all memory ought be free unless there's a defective service library. That's VERY hard to track on desktops and is the bane of developers everywhere. Not going to happen in a simple user app here anytime soon.

The need for separate task killers went away in Froyo, nearly 5 years ago.

I have no idea why this garbage continues to flourish in the market beyond profit motives.

A day of reckoning where this garbage finally gets formally recognized as the malware it truly is can't come too soon for me.
 
That makes alot of sense. I guess I just considered that maybe anything pre ICS was gone by now. I once IRL saw a device with honeycomb on it, but assumed it was an oddball holdover of some sort. It never occured to me that these apps might still be needed by some folks and therefor have a legitimate place in the market. EarlyMon's explanations was the best I could figure (profit motive) , but I still couldnt see why Google would let people blatantly rip people off after all their fanfare about the Play Store being safe and free of malware. It's a claim they make as a part of their business reputation, and on that basis they shouldnt play around with these apps that will not live up to their claims. Its hard enough to accept the ones that push junk apps onto your device without permission, but that is a whole other kind of doodoo :) Thanks again guys.
 
I suppose it's supply and demand. People think they need these apps so someone writes them but if they didn't exist then people wouldn't think they needed them so it's became a vicious cycle.
I'm just wondering (having never used ios seriously) if the app store has similar apps?
 
funkylogik said:
I suppose it's supply and demand. People think they need these apps so someone writes them but if they didn't exist then people wouldn't think they needed them so it's became a vicious cycle.
I'm just wondering (having never used ios seriously) if the app store has similar apps?
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Yeah supply and demand may have some part in it, but if for some reason there were a demand for an an app that made your device defecate ebola on you I doubt Google would let it into the Store. Maybe they are just a placebo in a bizarre techno-psychology conspiracy being perpetrated by Google, Micro$oft and Facebook! The True Triad of Technological Evil! Seriously though, these apps works as badly as you say and should be gone :)
 
funkylogik said:
I suppose it's supply and demand. People think they need these apps so someone writes them but if they didn't exist then people wouldn't think they needed them so it's became a vicious cycle.
I'm just wondering (having never used ios seriously) if the app store has similar apps?
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Something tells me that iOS has no similar apps because of the very thing I was talking about... business reputation. Not to mention that the pool of devs for apple is much smaller and more exclusive. I dont think there are any Mac development dungeons where iOS users cobble together knowledge that is widely available to anyone who uses the searchbar and can follow directions (well maybe its not THAT easy). I picture labcoats and sterile, static free rooms shaped like an iMac, and secret clones of Steve Jobs cranking out the latest and greatest proprietary software/hardware combos :)
 
iOS is not a preemptive multitasking system and is a big part of the reason that people think that Android is missing the part that iOS includes. iOS can't run like Android, it multitasks like Windows 95 used to.

Business savvy and quality have nothing to do with it.

The top flashlight apps in the Play Store come right out and say that they need to access your contacts and the Internet, and many get permission to modify your files - and people go for that nonsense without giving a second thought to the idea of what's wrong with doing that just to turn on a light.

In both the Android and iOS official stores.

The stable of iOS developers is huge, the number of worthless iPhone apps is huge, and the malware problems with it are documented via a link in http://androidforums.com/threads/please-read-me-first-android-things-to-know.490778/ that compares the two systems for security. And guess what, they're about the same.

So let's have no more silliness about iOS in this thread, it's terribly off-topic as well as being a non sequitur.

Further iOS or iPhone discussion will be removed on that basis, this is the last word. :)
 
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So I dont know if this is off the topic of the thread and apologize if it is, but in the case of the flashlight... for confirmation purposes, turning on a light can be done without fancy permissions? I certainly would question contacts, but with my limited knowledge it would almost make sense for the app to need file modification (perhaps to override battery saving on the camera flash). As far as the internet goes.... I deleted a battery widget when I reviewed the permissions and found that it had internet (guess I should have looked closer but, once again the play store is supposed to be safe for even novice users--otherwise why have the "unknown sources" checkbox)

I guess I just dont want to feel silly for thinking app devs are legit and would only ask for permissions they really need, or that I may not have quite the neccesary knowledge to know what an app needs. You are right that common sense should be your most powerful guide though.

And am I really in trouble for talking about the iOS ? I swear Ill tell the mac nerds you punished me for talking them up! :) Seriously though, my apologies for going off topic, like I said before I do realize that the rules are to keep things organized and to make informations more easily accessable without reading through droves of off topic posts.
 
First picture is for a very good add-on flashlight with a whole lot of features.

Second is for the one built in to my phone, that needs even less because of how it accesses the underlying framework.

1425342038514.jpg

1425342056524.jpg


Here's the named service for my built-in flashlight.

1425342229892.jpg

Add up both and compare to the add-on, they're the same.

Flashlights need nothing special at all.
 
I'm going to push the limits of good taste one more time, and ask another question on this thread that I think may be marginally off topic... But we've come this far already right? That was an informative article ( thanks for the link) an it is getting bookmarked incase I need to refer back to it, but it brings to mind another question that I'll need an advanced user to chime in on. What happens when the Jerks get Smart? For instance, if they hide their unethical code in an app that has sensible permissions? A social networking app that can already read your contacts and it makes sense to give the permission to, and other things like that? If you have a link for me to read about that I would gladly look at it. Thanks again :) Sorry to ask so many newbish questions, but I picked my sn for a reason!
 
EarlyMon said:
For that we have the Google Bouncer, and a flag in the Play Store where you can alert Google in case something isn't right if it gets past it.

See also -

http://androidforums.com/threads/superfish.904980/#post-6895629

Hope that helps. :)
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Hope that helps is my line! Smiley and all :) Google bouncer is what I was talking about with the playstore being "safe for novice user" or whatever I said. And yes it did help, because now I know I have to learn to code if I wanna sleep at night, or maybe just that doing it yourself is the only truly reliable way. Phones are starting to look a lot like cars in that respect.
 
EarlyMon said:
Outside of what BD said - how do you know those things were actually running?


How did your apps and processes become "offenders?"

You can try System Panel (thanks crashdamage, I have it and forgot about it lol) or Quick System Info Pro.

I have before me my phone, just idling and showing me Quick System Info Pro data.

I have over 40 apps and processes - right now - consuming 0% (meaning, less than 1%) according to Quick System Info Pro. According to System Panel, many of those are around 0.2% cpu consumption historically. I have eight processes consuming between 1 and 2%. The total of all background processes and the kernel is going between 35 to 42%

Quick System Info Pro itself - needed 9% cpu for quite a while to sort all of that out - then dropped to 6, and now it's down to 1 or 2%.

Power consumption for memory is constant - doesn't matter if you're using 1% or 99% - ram requires constant power.

The only variables for power consumption are the processor(s), the radios and the screen - and basically, the only power variable for apps is cpu consumption.

System monitors tend to consume more power than most of the apps.

Automatic task killers need to monitor the system - so let's try an experiment.

I've installed Battery Doctor.

And it's telling me that I have 39 problems that it needs to optimize.

I find this very interesting because the 39 apps that it's identified are ALTOGETHER using less than 15% of my battery - and that's only in RARE spurts, if ever. For the majority of the time, those apps are using ZERO PERCENT of my processor when I'm not using them.

And right now, when Battery Doctor said they needed to go - they were using - 0.0% of my cpu.

So, let me go and instrument my running processes - what do I find?

That Battery Doctor is using 5% of my cpu resources to identify the 39 apps and processes that are right now using ZERO PERCENT that it wants to kill.

If I let it "optimize" - it's going to use more cpu power for the "clean up" - and then the operating system is going to get quite confused thinking an error occurred with 39 hibernating apps that it was doing just dandy managing all on its own - so it's going to get busy trying to sort out its management tables - all at a higher cpu cost than normal.

So - using Battery Doctor to find apps using zero resources is going to take 5% cpu.

But its proportional now isn't it?

My total CPU load is below 50% - and 5% on 50% is actually a 10% increase in CPU power consumption.

Now - add another 5% - at least and I'm joking that it's that low - for the system to sort out what Battery Doctor "optimized."

Same math again - and what did I just demonstrate?

Battery Doctor just hit my processor with a 20% power increase at each optimization cycle -

All to kill apps that were quietly using NO power resources.

(Note - kill. What does it mean to kill something not actually running? What did Battery Doctor actually do? Think about it.)

You can try this yourself, repeat my steps - I promise you'll get the same results (more or less, depending on your phone's processor and what you have it configured to do).

Now - you tell me - who's the real offender here?

Android?

Apps quietly being managed and minding their own business?

Or Battery Doctor?

See why we all keep calling it snake oil now? ;) :)

PS - I've uninstalled Battery Doctor.

They ought to call it Battery Doctor Moreau because that thing is its own horror show.
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Although this thread is old, I just came across it today and must thank you EarlyMon for all of your postings regarding the various "snake oil" apps. Sometimes I go for a while without checking in on Phandroid Forum, then once I do, I have to spend time undoing all of the dumb stuff I've inflicted on my mobile device, lol.
 
Most permissions for apps like a flashlight app are to put in annoying ads there. Internet access to deliver the ads, contacts and messaging to read certain things about you to target the type of ads.
 
Honestly, I have wondered before what they do with those permissions. Common sense will tell you that Facebook might want to use your contacts where a battery widget has no business with the info. But if it does get the permission is there any wiggle room for that dev to say... " well uh Mr Google sir, I needed contacts because the battery is connected to the neck bone and the neck bone is connected to the Contacts..." .
Also I have seen some apps that claim you can grant permissions piece meal (one or none, or anything in between) . Any truth to those? I've never investigated them personally.
 
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