Regarding Scientology...

[Bob Maxey]

So is a group that advocates for animal rights. What does "animal rights" mean? A ban on animal testing? Conservation? Responsible pet ownership? Ban on furs? All of the above? None of the above? Completely subjective.

Animals have the right to give their live for a more flavorful betterment of man. Lets stop finding them so cute. They are filled with marbleing, needed fat, blood and goodness that is best served rare on my plate with a nice potato and a cob of lovely butter covered corn.

Pigs have a place on my plate, too. Fish? They are loved and welcomed; especially a nice hunk of salmon.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Love that movie!
So, when does a cult become a "legitimate" religion? Is it just the number of believers or some other measure? It seems like Mormonism is getting close to crossing the line. I'm curious to see if people will really feel comfortable voting for Romney when they inevitably start learning more about the Mormon beliefs.

Just for the record, I'm agnostic. I'm not trying to pick on anyone's religion, I don't support any organized religion.

I live in Salt Lake City and I feel qualified to discuss those rascals. Trust me, many of those people that discuss the LDS church usually have nary a clue about the Mormon faith. I'll give you that some of the beliefs of Joseph Smith were rather odd, but all religions have an oddity or two in their early history.

What is important is not how the Mormon Church started out, but where they are now. Same as the Catholic Church. Delve into their early history and you will learn how brutal an organized group can be.

The Mormon Church also used violence to solve problems in the early days. Smith had several people around him that took care of problems.

Today, the LDS Church does far more good than bad. Consider their welfare system. You take Church assistance and you are expected to work for it. Not like the government welfar system that give food stamps to almost anyone and they do not need to work.

 

[OutofDate1980]

You're absolutely right. One group in Alabama does this. Therefore every single religious group across the country does the exact same thing.

This just got the attention of the media, perhaps others are more PR savvy. This ministry activity is a furtherance of a religion therefore legal.

We can debate the market scope of this group is unnecessarily narrow, but doubt this group cares.

If this group has correctly defined its market, then nothing succeeds like success, could be a trend setter.

 

[OutofDate1980]

... What is important is not how the Mormon Church started out, but where they are now. ...

Appears their business has a competitive advantage over old fashioned secular business, less reliance on the capital market for funding among others.

A combination of religion and business the new model for free enterprise?

How the Mormons Make Money - Businessweek

 

[OutofDate1980]

... They are filled with marbleing, needed fat, blood and goodness that is best served rare on my plate with a nice potato and a cob of lovely butter covered corn. ...

Bon app

 

[A.Nonymous]

This just got the attention of the media, perhaps others are more PR savvy. This ministry activity is a furtherance of a religion therefore legal.

We can debate the market scope of this group is unnecessarily narrow, but doubt this group cares.

If this group has correctly defined its market, then nothing succeeds like success, could be a trend setter.

Why would it not be legal? It's a private organization.

The market already determines which advocacy groups succeed and which one's fail.

 

[Bob Maxey]

There should be no tax exemptions for religious organizations. By definition they are a creed and provide no benefit to the general public, only to the subset that comprise the members of said creeds.

Why should non members property taxes be higher to subsidize exclusive creeds that pay no property taxes?

Wrong. Churches serve the community. Yes, they also serve their members, but public service has long been part of organized religion. Here in Utah, the LDS Church does lots of things for lots of people.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Bon app

 

[OutofDate1980]

... Do not believe everything the Guardian says. ...

or in the Archives of Internal Medicine, the source of the Guardian article.

Get your information from a Big Fat Liar, known to make one stupid.

 

[Gmash]

Wrong. Churches serve the community. Yes, they also serve their members, but public service has long been part of organized religion. Here in Utah, the LDS Church does lots of things for lots of people.

Churches often serve their communities, but they are not required to. Perhaps they should have to prove they are providing a service in order to gain the tax exempt status. Even then, it should only be a partial exemption, not a total free pass.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Why would it not be legal? It's a private organization.

The market already determines which advocacy groups succeed and which one's fail.

Were going around in circles, so I'll just paste my previous responses.

"The fact is religions can legally discriminate that would be unlawful outside of the practice of religion."

"Let the "believers" decide which are worthwhile, not Caesar choosing which creed to bestow its blessing upon."

 

[OutofDate1980]

Wrong. Churches serve the community. Yes, they also serve their members, but public service has long been part of organized religion. Here in Utah, the LDS Church does lots of things for lots of people.

Yes the community may need help after the tax exempt religious owned business runs the taxed secular owned business bankrupt.

 

[A.Nonymous]

1. Any organization can discriminate about who they serve or who they allow to be members. Not restricted to only religions.

2. The feds aren't "bestowing their blessing" on anyone. Both Planned Parenthood and the local anti-abortion clinic are both 501cs. Unless you're going to argue that 'Caesar" is blessing both sides for whatever reason.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Churches often serve their communities, but they are not required to. Perhaps they should have to prove they are providing a service in order to gain the tax exempt status. Even then, it should only be a partial exemption, not a total free pass.

U.S. churches as opposed to other nonprofits are exempt from filing federal tax returns (Form 990), also religions have no legal obligation to open their books to the public or its own members.

Your suggestion would need to overcome these hurdles to be implemented.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[OutofDate1980]

1. Any organization can discriminate about who they serve or who they allow to be members. Not restricted to only religions.

2. The feds aren't "bestowing their blessing" on anyone. Both Planned Parenthood and the local anti-abortion clinic are both 501cs. Unless you're going to argue that 'Caesar" is blessing both sides for whatever reason.

Which part of the word "unlawful" is confusing ? "The fact is religions can legally discriminate that would be unlawful outside of the practice of religion."

Just a few posts up was an example of a religion that members must be of European ancestry. Your local Rotary club would lose it tax exemption in a heartbeat for that unlawful discrimination.

Property tax exemption and tax deductible donations are privileges for entities the government has granted tax exempt status. It doesn't matter if these entities are called the Catholic Church or Planned Parenthood.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Which part of the word "unlawful" is confusing ? "The fact is religions can legally discriminate that would be unlawful outside of the practice of religion."

Just a few posts up was an example of a religion that members must be of European ancestry. Your local Rotary club would lose it tax exemption in a heartbeat for that unlawful discrimination.

Property tax exemption and tax deductible donations are privileges for entities the government has granted tax exempt status. It doesn't matter if these entities are called the Catholic Church or Planned Parenthood.

That's not true at all. Private organizations discriminate all the time.

 

[OutofDate1980]

That's not true at all. Private organizations discriminate all the time.

In employment unlawful discrimination includes discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.

If a tax exempt Rotary club refused to allow membership based on race, then it could lose tax exempt status because discrimination based on race is not within the furtherance of its tax exempt purpose.

In the previously referenced Church of God's Chosen, believes that the Europeans and their descendants are the chosen people of God, per its religions website, therefore what would otherwise be termed as unlawful discrimination, i.e. discrimination based on race, falls within the furtherance of its tax exempt purpose, i.e. religion.

The LDS also had policies that discriminated against people of black African descent while being tax exempt, but had a revelation in 1978 and changed those policies.

The government unsuccessfully attempted to revoke the tax exempt status of the Church of Scientology.

The key point is that churches tax exempt purpose is the furtherance of a religion. The IRS makes no attempt to evaluate the content of the belief system in its evaluations for religious tax exemptions.

 

[A.Nonymous]

The Boy Scouts are a non-religious non-profit and discriminate against gays.

The purpose of the tax exemption is not to further a religion it's to encourage charitable giving.

 

[OutofDate1980]

The Boy Scouts are a non-religious non-profit and discriminate against gays.

"In employment unlawful discrimination includes discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information."

The purpose of the tax exemption is not to further a religion it's to encourage charitable giving.

That's your definition of purpose, not the IRS's, do some research. I previously cited an IRS link Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: that's a start.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Hate to break it to you, but if the feds are giving a tax exemption for the specific purpose of promoting a religion it's a cut and dried violation of the church/state separation. But whatever.

If you don't want to give, don't give. It's no skin off my nose. If people don't give to a particular non-profit that non-profit goes away. The market already determines which one's succeed and which one's don't. The process encourages giving which is a good thing and non-profits provide a lot of services to their communities. Encouraging people to give to them means the feds and other private sector agencies have to spend less money providing services. I fail to see why this is bad in any way shape or form.

 

[OutofDate1980]

Hate to break it to you, but if the feds are giving a tax exemption for the specific purpose of promoting a religion it's a cut and dried violation of the church/state separation. But whatever. ...

Hate to break it to you, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that providing tax exemptions to religion did not violate the Establishment Clause (Walz v. Tax Commission), in this case houses of religious worship, just for being a house of religious worship. As it applied to all religious organizations, an individual religion was not establish.

Owning a house of religious worship is a furtherance of a religion, but not a necessary or exclusive activity. The religious organization can place advertizing on its property promoting its religion and still be tax exempt. The activities for the furtherance are almost endless.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Here's an old Rolling Stone article. Hubbard was a prophet.

Inside Scientology | Culture News | Rolling Stone

In his 1983 autobiography, Over My Shoulder: Reflections on a Science Fiction Era, the sci-fi writer Lloyd Eshbach describes meeting Hubbard in the late 1940s. "I'd like to start a religion," Eshbach recalls Hubbard saying. "That's where the money is."

I tend to listen to those who knew L. Ron. Like Harlen Ellison. They were friends and he also reports the reason LRH created Scientology was to hook the rubes and fools. And Ellison would likely agree with Mr. Eshbach. Not really a secret, but no scientologist will discuss what they already know about the church's founder.

Harlen mentioned that LRH was a good writer and he used multiple typewriters and paper on rolls to write several pieces at the same time. Ron decided to use paper on rolls because he thought it took too much time to change paper.

I doubt the rich and famous can leave Scientology even if they wanted to leave. My theory is Tom Cruise is scared of scientologists and their leadership and what they might do. TC has power in Hollywood, but even he cant spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder for nut bars with weapons.

Stay the heck away from scientology is my only advice.

 

[Bob Maxey]

The Boy Scouts are a non-religious non-profit and discriminate against gays.

Were you a Boy Scout/Cub Scout? Lots of reasons gay people are not allowed in the Scouts. I think all private groups like the Scouts should be allowed to determine who should be allowed in.

 

[OutofDate1980]

"All religions have been made by men." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet” –Napoleon Bonaparte

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." --Thomas Jefferson

 

[rushmore]

Seems that South Park summed it up quite well in the closet episode.