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Romney vs. Obama

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Well that's just it, he doesn't believe that the good of the party is what is important...its the good of the country that matters. He's not about to change his philosophy just to help obtain a victory for the republicans over the democrats, that is what is wrong with the system, party politics trumps representation of the people.

He's not attempting to win the game after losing (imo), he's simply refusing to play it on their terms. I'd do the exact same thing, I'd stand on my principles in thinking that my party has lost it's focus on the real job and is only concerned with staying in power. Should he join another party or form his own? In an equal political landscape, yes. But in the real world he would never be heard, so he does what he has to.

My take on his stance would be akin to Rosa Parks not giving up her seat...to hell with the way its always been done, time to do what is right. I just can't take issue with someone for standing up to the big boys even though it makes his life harder and causes him to become marginalized.

I'd perhaps share your view more easily if Romney et al were all playing with sportsmanlike conduct, but if you and I are playing a game where you use every dirty trick in the book to win, I'm damn sure not going to shake your hand afterward!
 
If he doesn't believe that the party is the answer then why is he trying to get the GOP nomination so he can take advantage of the resources of the party? You can't have it both ways IMO. You can't claim the party is corrupt and want to use it's resources at the same time.

Any way you look at it IMO Paul has lost this game. The voters aren't going out to the polls to vote for him. We can debate/discuss why all day long and that's fine and dandy. At the end of the day, the polls are pretty clear. People aren't voting for him. Paul ignores the fact that his message isn't resonating and that people aren't interested in it and tries to steal delegates that voters have decided should be pledged to other candidates. That is what ticks me off.

Romney, Santorum and Gingrich aren't using any political tricks. They were going out and giving the voters reasons to vote for them. That didn't work for Paul. So he's basically ignoring what the voters want figuring that they'll come around to his side eventually.

With Paul I find myself liking his politics, but hating the man. Obama seems like a great guy. Father of two. Likeable. Doesn't seem to have any skeletons in his closet. Can't stand his policies. I'd get a drink with him any day, but wouldn't vote for him. Paul I could see myself voting for, but wouldn't want anything to do with because of the underhanded way he plays the game and his seeming disregard for what the people want.
 
Romney’s former classmate: ‘You have to take it into account’ – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

CNN said:
Washington (CNN) – Phillip Maxwell wishes he had done something to stop it.

Maxwell, a Michigan attorney, is still haunted by what he claims he witnessed on the campus of the state's elite Cranbrook School in 1965: a young Mitt Romney and a group of friends holding down a classmate named John Lauber and cutting off chunks of his long hair.

"It was not an event you take a lot of pride in. And it was that way for all of us," Maxwell told CNN.

Maxwell confirmed the story, first reported in the Washington Post. However, he insisted the incident was far worse than a high school prank.

"I'm a lawyer. I know what an assault is. This kid was scared. He was terrified. That's an assault," Maxwell said.

Romney said in an interview with Fox News Radio he does not recall the incident described in the Post article. But the former Massachusetts governor acknowledged he engaged in pranks that "might have gone too far" and apologized for any harm done during his time at Cranbrook.

"Back in high school, I did some dumb things, and if anybody was hurt by that or offended, obviously I apologize for that," Romney said.

Maxwell told CNN he is disappointed in Romney's response to the story.

"He says he doesn't remember it and I find it difficult to believe," Maxwell said in a telephone interview.

"It's unfortunate that Mitt simply hasn't owned up to his behavior," he added.

Maxwell, who told ABC News he is a registered independent who has voted for both Democrats and Republicans, said the episode is "relevant" in the campaign as a window into Romney's character.

"I guess you have to take it into account. Are you the kind of person who would stop the abuse of an innocent person?" Maxwell asked.

To this day, Maxwell regrets he will never have the chance to make amends with Lauber who, according to the Post, died in 2004.

"I wish I could have apologized to him," Maxwell said.

Late in the day, the Romney campaign provided statements from other former classmates of the GOP contender.

"Mitt was a thoughtful guy with a great sense of humor who cared about his classmates. He had a good perspective on how to balance all the pressures high school students face. He would never go out and do anything mean spirited. Clownish, yes. Never mean," Richard Moon, one ex-classmate said in the statement furnished by the campaign.

"Mitt never had a malicious bone in his body – trying to imply or characterize him as a bully is absurd," John French, another former classmate, said in another statement released by Romney's staff.

Romney campaign spokeswoman Andrea Saul said French "wasn't involved in incident and doesn't remember it happening." She did not elaborate on the statement issued by Moon.


It would make for some interesting foreign policy, I can see Nato holding someone like Gaddafi down while Mitt cuts his hair.
 
While you're right that Paul could accomplish some things without Congress, he wouldn't. He's a very strict constitutionalist guy and doesn't believe in passing laws by executive order the way Presidents for the past several generations have done. He doesn't believe the White House and the Congress should sit down and talk about the budget. To him that's something the Congress hashes out and then the President either signs or vetos it. At the end of the guy he's a guy who his own party doesn't care for right now. I can't imagine that changing if he's suddenly in the White House.
The budget process starts at the White House.


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The Romney story brings up an interesting point that I'd like to note: why has a thread that is supposed to focus on candidate vs. candidate talked almost exclusively about general economic policy and theory? I saw that a mod brought this up previously and understand that no political discussion can be complete without economic ramifications; however, can we focus more on the candidates' beliefs and stances on social issues? Without this, we are in danger of simply thinking of the election as party vs. party, which should not and cannot happen. Romney, for example, is an exceptionally poor candidate, even by Republican standards, I don't think I need to hash out every reason why.

I see posts from libertarians and Ron Paul supporters that seem to indicate that should (when) Ron Paul fail to secure the nomination, that their votes will go to Romney instead, which I find interesting. Can some libertarians discuss this, particularly from a social perspective? For example, I understand that most Paul supporters believe that issues like abortion and gay marriage should be left to the states; however, Romney as President would go directly against this. What's the reasoning for Paul supporters to go with Romney?
 
On March 24th, at a fire station in Marysville, the Paul campaign held a training session for delegates in the 39th LD. This event was promoted on the Snohomish County Ron Paul Meetup site and email invitations were sent out to county Paul delegates.

As the meeting was about to begin Lil Erickson recognized a Romney supporter sitting in the back. This wasn
 
The difference between what Romney and what Paul are doing is that Paul has basically lost. If Santorum was still in the race and doing the same thing, I would feel differently. Santorum and Romney were running very close and Santorum would not have needed to sway a whole lot of delegates to swing things his way.

Paul is different. He can't make the claim that voters want him when he hasn't carried the popular vote in a single state. He can't make the argument that the party really wants him because he is widely disliked in his own party. He strikes me in many ways as essentially a sore loser. He is like an MMA fighter who has had the snot beat out of him and now he's on the mat and Romney has him locked tightly in a submission hold but he refuses to tap out. He has clearly lost. No judge or spectator is going to argue that he is the winner. Yet here he is locked in a submission refusing to tap out if for no other reason than to force Romney to win by a referee's decision and deny him a submission or knock out victory.

Personally, I think the buck has to stop at the top. To me Romney's supporters started the underhanded crap because Paul supporters were doing it first. Doesn't mean it's right for either of them, but I feel like that's where it starts at. Paul's campaign is much smaller than Romneys which makes me more inclined to think that he is at least aware of what is going on. I personally think he's of the opinion that he's not doing anything wrong by scamming delegates from other candidates.
 
Paul is different. He can't make the claim that voters want him when he hasn't carried the popular vote in a single state. He can't make the argument that the party really wants him because he is widely disliked in his own party. He strikes me in many ways as essentially a sore loser. He is like an MMA fighter who has had the snot beat out of him and now he's on the mat and Romney has him locked tightly in a submission hold but he refuses to tap out. He has clearly lost. No judge or spectator is going to argue that he is the winner. Yet here he is locked in a submission refusing to tap out if for no other reason than to force Romney to win by a referee's decision and deny him a submission or knock out victory.
Your analogy implies that Paul ever really stood a chance. Besides a very brief period at the beginning, he's been in the basement of the voting in nearly every state. He isn't even in the ring. He's the guy on the sidelines heckling, shouting "I bet I could take all you guys on!!!"
 
can we focus more on the candidates' beliefs and stances on social issues........... Romney, for example, is an exceptionally poor candidate............. I don't think I need to hash out every reason why.


so what youre saying is you would like to discuss the candidates specifically...... but you wouldnt like to discuss them
 
I've done a little research and I'm still having difficulty understanding how RP is scamming delegates, can you explain how this is occurring so that I can understand it?

Is he obligated to give his delegates (that he won through the votes cast for him) to Romney? I don't understand how not giving Romney his earned delegates is scamming, is he somehow stealing delegates earned by Romney?
 
The Romney story brings up an interesting point that I'd like to note: why has a thread that is supposed to focus on candidate vs. candidate talked almost exclusively about general economic policy and theory? I saw that a mod brought this up previously and understand that no political discussion can be complete without economic ramifications; however, can we focus more on the candidates' beliefs and stances on social issues? Without this, we are in danger of simply thinking of the election as party vs. party, which should not and cannot happen. Romney, for example, is an exceptionally poor candidate, even by Republican standards, I don't think I need to hash out every reason why.

I see posts from libertarians and Ron Paul supporters that seem to indicate that should (when) Ron Paul fail to secure the nomination, that their votes will go to Romney instead, which I find interesting. Can some libertarians discuss this, particularly from a social perspective? For example, I understand that most Paul supporters believe that issues like abortion and gay marriage should be left to the states; however, Romney as President would go directly against this. What's the reasoning for Paul supporters to go with Romney?



I think you answered your own question. You can discuss each individual candidate, but since we're really discussing a Democratic candidate vs a Republican candidate, you have to take into account party lines, and party track record. I replied to the mod's post and stated that I would personally like to see the flow of the conversation continue without it being artificially guided. I think the OP also stated that he doesn't mind it veering off the main topic because he felt all input has been relevant up to this point, even discussions about Ron Paul even though he's not in really in contention.
 
Turns out that the GOP has set up their election rules similar to the presidential election, popular vote doesn't count and is not needed to carry the delegates. So RP (nor any other candidate) doesn't need the popular vote according to the GOP's own policies.

I also found that he has been completely open about his delegate strategy and that it is perfectly within the rules. So where is the scam? Of course no one has to like his strategy, but to say that he is pulling a scam just simply isn't true when he's following the rules set forth by the GOP themselves. As a perennially disadvantaged underdog he's using a clever and legal strategy. Romney is using the best strategy of all, because it is available to him...money.

I'd bet some serious money that if RP somehow managed to pull off a brokered convention and win the nomination, the GOP would change their rules before the next election, that would be taking your ball and going home!
 
Paul Begala on Romney: Once a Bully, Always a Bully - The Daily Beast

"A less-commented upon part of the Post's story on Romney's teenage years is nearly as cruel as the bullying of his classmate. Cranbrook, Romney's elite private academy, had a teacher who was so visually impaired the kids called him "The Bat." Romney and a pal walked The Bat up to a door. Romney beckoned The Bat to walk through first, making a sweeping motion toward the door as if it were open, but it wasn't. The Bat walked into the closed door as Mitt collapsed in fits of sadistic laughter."

At least now we know he has a personality......not sure it's a good personality. I love how all these people come out of the woodworks near crunch-time.
 
I like both guys, either or at this point really.

As for Romney's high school years, we were all dumb, stupid, idiot kids. He's proven himself past that already.
 
I don't see how that story is even relevant unless you want to argue that a 65 year old man hasn't changed at all since high school. Let's be honest, is there anyone here who didn't do something foolish and stupid during high school? Next think we know we'll pull up the fact that Obama pulled a girl's pigtails in elementary school.

right? i know i'm the exact same person i was when i was in my teens.


It may or may not be relevant, but voters will definitely take note. What makes this more relevant is all the anti-bullying kick that everyone is on.

I tend to agree that what has happened in the past may not be an indicator of someone's current character, but when someone is confronted with their missteps of the past, it's good to see what kind of response is given. Romney's "I don't remember, but I'm sorry" sounds like a, "I want to be President so bad that I'll apologize to a long haired hippy if I have to". Not the most sincere reflection on his past IMO, but then again it's not as bad as "I didn't inhale".
 
It may or may not be relevant, but voters will definitely take note. What makes this more relevant is all the anti-bullying kick that everyone is on.

I tend to agree that what has happened in the past may not be an indicator of someone's current character, but when someone is confronted with their missteps of the past, it's good to see what kind of response is given. Romney's "I don't remember, but I'm sorry" sounds like a, "I want to be President so bad that I'll apologize to a long haired hippy if I have to". Not the most sincere reflection on his past IMO, but then again it's not as bad as "I didn't inhale".

We are talking about an incident that literally happened 40 years ago. There is a significant population of voters who weren't even alive when this incident took place. Yet we're supposed to think it reflects on his character today?
 
I find it humorous that Obama is praised for changing his view (or at least saying he changed his view) recently, but Romney gets attacked for something he did when he was a child. Presumably, Rooney has changed his view on bullying, so shouldn't he be praised for that change as well? Or is the past only irrelevant when it comes to Obama?

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Turns out that the GOP has set up their election rules similar to the presidential election, popular vote doesn't count and is not needed to carry the delegates. So RP (nor any other candidate) doesn't need the popular vote according to the GOP's own policies.

I also found that he has been completely open about his delegate strategy and that it is perfectly within the rules. So where is the scam? Of course no one has to like his strategy, but to say that he is pulling a scam just simply isn't true when he's following the rules set forth by the GOP themselves. As a perennially disadvantaged underdog he's using a clever and legal strategy. Romney is using the best strategy of all, because it is available to him...money.

I'd bet some serious money that if RP somehow managed to pull off a brokered convention and win the nomination, the GOP would change their rules before the next election, that would be taking your ball and going home!

Paul's strategy flagrantly violates the spirit of the law but not the letter. He's scamming in the sense that he's gaming the system. Voters have spoken and said that they want the delegates to go to other candidates, but Paul doesn't care. What's worse is that he's lobbying delegates who are required by party rules to vote for other candidates to get out of their obligations. He's wanting them to abstain from voting on the first ballot. Then they are free to vote for anyone they choose. Again, this is a flat out underhanded tactic IMO.

As I said, it would be one thing if Santorum was doing it. Santorum was running very close with Romney. If he could sway some delegates he would have a very real chance of having a huge impact on the platform if not being nominated himself. Paul has no chance at all. Why is he doing all of this if not out of spite? Even if he does manage to get nominated, he can't expect the party to back him at all. There's no chance he gets elected. I find the way Paul is conducting his campaign to be spiteful.
 
Paul's strategy flagrantly violates the spirit of the law but not the letter. He's scamming in the sense that he's gaming the system. Voters have spoken and said that they want the delegates to go to other candidates, but Paul doesn't care. What's worse is that he's lobbying delegates who are required by party rules to vote for other candidates to get out of their obligations. He's wanting them to abstain from voting on the first ballot. Then they are free to vote for anyone they choose. Again, this is a flat out underhanded tactic IMO.

As I said, it would be one thing if Santorum was doing it. Santorum was running very close with Romney. If he could sway some delegates he would have a very real chance of having a huge impact on the platform if not being nominated himself. Paul has no chance at all. Why is he doing all of this if not out of spite? Even if he does manage to get nominated, he can't expect the party to back him at all. There's no chance he gets elected. I find the way Paul is conducting his campaign to be spiteful.

The GOP set up their rules, RP is a GOP member, he is following the rules that his party put in place. That is the long and the short of it, no matter how much you disagree with it or despise it, it is not a scam.

Who are these voters that have spoken, and why does anything they say have any relevance?

You probably already know this, but perhaps the conversation merits a quick recap;

In States with a primary the delegates are assigned based on a percentage of votes (unless its a winner take all State like Florida) the delegates RP collected are his. Further, delegates can state their support for a candidate or remain uncommitted.

Caucuses are simply meetings, open to all registered voters of the party, at which delegates to the party's national convention are selected. When the caucus begins, the voters in attendance divide themselves into groups according to the candidate they support. The undecided voters congregate into their own group and prepare to be "courted" by supporters of other candidates.

Voters in each group are then invited to give speeches supporting their candidate and trying to persuade others to join their group. At the end of the caucus, party organizers count the voters in each candidate's group and calculate how many delegates to the county convention each candidate has won.

As in the primaries, the caucus process can produce both pledged and unpledged convention delegates, depending on the party rules of the various states.

As I stated earlier, the voters are inconsequential once delegates are chosen and those delegates can choose to remain uncommitted. In other words it wouldn't matter if 100% of the primary and caucus voters wanted RP to win the nomination, if the delegates choose to remain undecided they can pledge their support for Romney at the convention. The voters have no voice, just as in the general election.

There must be a reason why the GOP made their rules this way, I'm sure it wasn't an accident, in fact I'd wager its so that delegates can be bought if need be, reap what you sow.

I hardly think he's doing it just for spite, he gains two things by doing this; he gets more free publicity / media coverage and gets his message out. If he'd dropped out back when Perry did...well, are we talking about Perry anymore? He also sends a message to young people with political aspirations...one man with very little money, no party support and a brain, can make a difference. What good is publicity if its negative you say? Better than no one knowing you even exist, many people have walked to the bank from negative PR.

Romney and the GOP have known about RP's plan for months, either they aren't worried at all or they're idiots for not sitting down with RP and making a compromise to avoid a brokered convention.

I hope he is able to make it a brokered convention, that will effectively end the Republican bid for the White House and I'd much rather deal with the known factor of another 4 years of Obama than the uncertainty of Romney. People that vote for a candidate based on his party affiliation rather than his qualifications are as much a part of the problem as the two parties in power are.

I'm tired of politics as usual, I want real change and I'll support anyone that can do it legally. (at some point I'll probably support a physical revolution, right to overthrow a tyrannical government and all, defining tyranny is the problem)

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not only insane, it's just plain stupid.
 
Paul is running by the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. The voters are the voters who have gone to the primary. Many times so far they have voted for Romney or Santorum or Gingrich and Paul's people have stuck around to make sure that even though the voters are pledged to Gingrich, for example, they are really Paul supporters. He's not just trying to win a certain percentage of the delegates in states where delegates are allocated he's trying to get delegates that VOTERS have decided should be allocated to someone else to vote for him instead. That's the problem. Currently he's trying to get delegates who are required, by party rules, to vote for Romney to not vote for Romney. No candidate has tried to do that since the 70s.

I agree with you that if he gets a brokered convention the Republican party loses in a landslide. If he somehow gets the nomination (which I don't think is likely actually), then I think that will effectively split the party in two if not three parts. The conservatives won't vote for Paul. The centrist wing backing Romney won't back Paul either. I could see Romney running a fairly successful 3rd party bid.

The party won't negotiate with Paul. The flat out do not like him because he doesn't play the political game at all. Some people say this is a good thing so you can take it as you will. They won't negotiate with him because he is not likely to give up anything in the process.

What Paul is doing is just as much a scam as the guy scamming free drinks at a bar. At least I know why the guy at the bar is doing it.
 
Why are RP's tactics in the GOP playbook if they don't want anyone to be able to use them? They've had 4 brokered conventions in the past and all resulted in a loss in the presidential election. You'd think that they'd change their rules after the first couple of times, unless of course they are sometimes used to the benefit of the most popular choice among the party members. There has to be a reason why these rules are in place. I think the GOP are getting exactly what they deserve. Although I'm probably more irritated with them than usual (and biased) since they're coming to my neighborhood to clog up the roads and act like royalty.

I think Obama wins in a landslide if the convention is brokered, regardless of what Romney does. If he goes third party it'll be just one more relentless flip flop ad attack barrage from Obama.

If they won't at least try to negotiate with RP, its just more proof of how ill-suited the Republicans are to run the country. Running the risk of losing it all versus trying everything you can to save the election is typical of the GOP, although we could probably say the same about the Democrats too.

And if we actually have a close election, look for voter fraud issues in Florida to spice things up again, the Republicans have been been busy trying to eliminate non-citizen (illegal) voters...with a broad brush.
 
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