The Gun Law Discussion

[PrinceCorwin]

I really don't care if making guns illegal would actually succeed in keeping them out of the hands of criminals. I am not willing to sacrifice American liberty for the sake of security. Locking everyone in a cage from 7 pm until 7am would prevent late night crime but I'm not willing to support such an infringement upon my liberty.

Anyone who is willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.
There are many socialist countries on this Earth... move to one of them if that is your preferred way of life.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I think what he's getting at is the that those drugs are still on the street regardless of the fact that they are illegal. Stating the redundant fact that criminals don't obey laws.

I don't think anyone made the argument that making guns (or certain kinds of guns) illegal would eliminate gun crime. Could it limit it or alleviate it though? I, personally, think the answer is yes with the right laws.

 

[copestag]

and what in your mind would the "right laws" be?

registration?..... proven it doesnt work

 

[A.Nonymous]

and what in your mind would the "right laws" be?

registration?..... proven it doesnt work

Registration has never been done in the US on a national scale. Not sure how you can say it doesn't work. Registration wouldn't necessarily be preventative anyway.

 

[pbf98]

please elaborate on which "right laws" criminals will obey. The point out there still is when you take away some guns from the people who could other wise purchase them, it leaves those guns to still be purchased by criminals.

I have heard people say "Criminals get guns from people who purchase them legally" well selling firearms to a criminal can make yourself a criminal, and if caught supplying to criminals they wouldn't be able to legally buy them.

 

[Ibrick]

Look at the null hypothesis of your statement. If we made meth and heroin legal tomorrow would we see usage go up, down or stay the same? If the answer is up, then having them illegal does cut down on usage even if it doesn't prevent it entirely.

Actually studies have shown that the legality of narcotics isn't a factor in an individuals decision to use or not.

I'll see if I can dig up the survey, but there was a study done of high school kids and the reasons they chose not to do drugs, rating them in importance and influence. Being illegal was last on the list after, family, friends, health, religion.

 

[copestag]

Registration has never been done in the US on a national scale. Not sure how you can say it doesn't work. Registration wouldn't necessarily be preventative anyway.

no but registration has been tried in some of the most dangerous places in teh country....... places where guns dont come in from outside sources.... its not working in California...... its not working in NY..... registering legally obtained guns does nothing toward decreasing crime committed with illegal guns

and if not preventative what possible purpose could it serve..... other than the government as well as the public knowing who has what

 

[A.Nonymous]

Actually studies have shown that the legality of narcotics isn't a factor in an individuals decision to use or not.

I'll see if I can dig up the survey, but there was a study done of high school kids and the reasons they chose not to do drugs, rating them in importance and influence. Being illegal was last on the list after, family, friends, health, religion.

I would lay odds (and I bet there are studies on it) that legalizing marijuana for medicinal use correlates with an increase in usage. It's too early to see results from Colorado's recent legalization of marijuana, but I'd lay odds that in the real world usage goes up as well.

 

[Ibrick]

I would lay odds (and I bet there are studies on it) that legalizing marijuana for medicinal use correlates with an increase in usage. It's too early to see results from Colorado's recent legalization of marijuana, but I'd lay odds that in the real world usage goes up as well.

I would have to disagree with that, in fact I would say a very, very, small percentage of people would start smoking marijuana after it was legalized. Recreational users, wouldn't change. Medicinal users on the other hand might try it if their current course of medicine wasn't working, or they wanted to try an alternative to prescription drugs.

We're way off topic here, but anyone who thinks the 'war on drugs' has been a success, is being ignorant to the facts. Its been a tremendous waste of money and has accomplished pretty much nothing.

To tie it back to the OT, sort of.. anybody with a set of eyes and half a brain can see crime has pretty much stayed the same recently and has consistently decreased over the long run. The firearms Obama is targeting are used in a negligible number of crimes. In NY last year a rifle was used in 2% of all crimes involving a firearm. All rifles, not just AR's and AK's that seem to be the focal point. Break it down to just 'military style, assault rifle, death machines' and who knows how low that number is. Close up the 'gun show loophole' where .7% of guns used in a crime were purchased and everyone can sleep better a night knowing those criminals can just as easily go a different route, but hey, it sounds like a reasonable restriction regardless of the facts so let's go with it.

This is all just posturing and its pathetic. Obamas speech reading kids letters, having kids up on the stage is sickening. Joe Biden having the audacity to say he spoke to all sides and came up with a proposal they all could agree on is nothing but a bold faced lie. The group assembled was hand picked and was nothing but a group of 'yes men' and pro gun control advocates.

I realize this doesn't have anything to do with your post that I quoted, just felt like ranting. :banghead:

 

[Speed Daemon]

Once again, the point is missed... the crimes committed with the guns are already against the law. Simply making a law against the tools used is pointless. Of course stealing should be illegal. I never said that crimes should not have corresponding laws. But just because stealing is illegal, we shouldn't make owning a crowbar illegal. Many people use them for purposes other than crime, just like guns.

Well said.

I carry a pretty complete tool kit in my truck, including a crowbar that I originally bought to chip ice off the pavement when I had to park outside. Now it's just there in case I'm ever the first on the scene of a wreck, and need something to pry open a car door...and to open wooden crates of course.

What's sad is that I could be tried and convicted of "burglary tools" because I would want to save someone from dying in a burning car.

In another case, a cop told me that I couldn't have a flashlight in the passenger compartment of my car "because it could be used as a club". That was ironic, considering that the cop was there because someone had used his car as a battering ram in a fit of road rage. Yeah...it's OK to use the deadly force of a car to express anger, but the world must be made safe from people who might use a flashlight for anything other than its intended purpose!

The law books are brimming with redundant and discriminatory laws that benefit only a select few, and can be abused to ruin innocent lives. The last thing that this country needs is more of the same. So-called "preventive laws" that punish people based on a presumption that they might commit a real crime violate the word and the spirit of the Constitution.

Never mind the 2nd Amendment; how about the presumption of innocence? This isn't "The Minority Report". Making new laws with the intention of preventing a crime, but not giving each and every affected person their right to due process is wrong.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I have never heard of someone being charged with having burglary tools for having a crowbar in their car. I actually have one in mine. No good reason for it TBH I just bought it for a project, took it where I needed for my project and never took it out once I was done. I honestly can't think of a single legit reason for it to be in my car. I spent 6 years around a 911 center and not once in my life did I ever see a car accident where a life could've been saved if someone had showed up with a crowbar so that's a highly, highly improbably scenario. Still it harms nothing so I carry it around 'cuz I'm too lazy to move it someplace else.

The cop telling you you can't have a flashlight is an idiot. If you had a baseball bat sitting on your passenger seat would that be illegal? Of course not. And a baseball is designed specifically to club things. That is it's purpose in life. Having a club is not illegal. Clubbing people with said club is. I'd like to see what law says you can't have a club in your car 'cuz I can club someone with anything I've got in my car. I wear suits. I have neck ties in my car. I could garrotte someone with one of them. There are no laws against such things and the officer who told you so was an idiot.

I'm still looking for an argument on how registration of guns is discriminatory at all. The presumption of innocence only applies to those who have been legally accused of crimes. No one has done that here.

 

[sntaylor]

So In The Long Term, Why Would A Ban On guns Not Help?

It Wouldn't Stop All Gun Crime, Let's Face It, Nothing Will! The Death Penalty Doesn't Stop These People So Why Would Having To Register A Gun?

At Least A Ban Would Cut Down The Number Of Guns Available To Purchase, And Over Time Gun Crime Would Come Down.

This Is Obviously Not An Option Though Because Of The Second amendment..... Something That Seems To Me, Was Written Out Of Fear?

Every Argument I Have Heard About Guns, Comes Down To Fear? I Can't Help But Feel Sorry For You As It Seems To Me, reading These Arguments, You Live Your Life In Constant Fear....I Have T
To Carry A Gun In Case I Get Robbed/Someone Else Starts Shooting Up/Aliens Invade

I Walk Down The Street Without A Thought Of Being Mugged Or Anything ElseWe Don't Have Guns So Don't Fear The Few Available On The Black Market.... Its Different If People Use Them For Hunting/Target practise..... I'm Only 5Ft7 And Built Like A Twig, So Not Like I Can Really Protect Myself From Being Jumped Etc.... But I Still Don't Feel A Need To Carry A Weapon For Protection!

 

[A.Nonymous]

No one has proposed a ban on guns. Just pointing out the obvious.

 

[PrinceCorwin]

I have never heard of someone being charged with having burglary tools for having a crowbar in their car. I actually have one in mine. No good reason for it TBH I just bought it for a project, took it where I needed for my project and never took it out once I was done. I honestly can't think of a single legit reason for it to be in my car. I spent 6 years around a 911 center and not once in my life did I ever see a car accident where a life could've been saved if someone had showed up with a crowbar so that's a highly, highly improbably scenario. Still it harms nothing so I carry it around 'cuz I'm too lazy to move it someplace else.

The cop telling you you can't have a flashlight is an idiot. If you had a baseball bat sitting on your passenger seat would that be illegal? Of course not. And a baseball is designed specifically to club things. That is it's purpose in life. Having a club is not illegal. Clubbing people with said club is. I'd like to see what law says you can't have a club in your car 'cuz I can club someone with anything I've got in my car. I wear suits. I have neck ties in my car. I could garrotte someone with one of them. There are no laws against such things and the officer who told you so was an idiot.

I'm still looking for an argument on how registration of guns is discriminatory at all. The presumption of innocence only applies to those who have been legally accused of crimes. No one has done that here.

Well now you have heard of it... I was charged with misdemeanor "carrying a dangerous weapon" for walking down the sidewalk with a lugwrench hanging through my beltloop at night. A woman had pulled over with a flat tire on evening and I walked home to get the lugwrench (she had a jack but no wrench to remove the lugs). I walked back, changed her tire and she drove away. As I was walking back home, a cop charged me up and took me to jail because there were no witnesses to the event and he said carrying the lugwrench in that manner was illegal.

And FYI... carrying things like bolt cutters and crowbars in your car if you cant prove that your profession necessitates such things is grounds for being charged with carrying burglary tools... at least in Texas.

 

[A.Nonymous]

That is a bizarre law. I carry rope and duct tape with me at all times just in case. Does that make me a potential kidnapper?

 

[Bob Maxey]

and what in your mind would the "right laws" be?

Here Are the Rejected, ‘Unpatriotic’ Amendments From the NY Gun Law That One Dem Preferred Not Be Seen | Video | TheBlaze.com

Here are a few proposals. Not sure what to think. Apparently, some want these things considered:

Confiscation of

 

[pbf98]

confiscation will not happen, even if it were I think it would be met with too much opposition when carried out.

1 gun a month per person? sure I don't often buy guns at all in a month, but saying there would be a limit would just be stupid.

limit magazine possession to two? .. too loosely defined, per gun? total? either way just another stupid proposal.

as far as a crowbar, most cars in the 80s and prior came with crowbar in in the trunk that had a head to take off the lugs of your tires. My last car had one, and after having to help someone change a tire I had it in my backseat.

I have heard of laws against 4 D-cell battery flashlights in my state

 

[Bob Maxey]

confiscation will not happen, even if it were I think it would be met with too much opposition when carried out.

1 gun a month per person? sure I don't often buy guns at all in a month, but saying there would be a limit would just be stupid.

limit magazine possession to two? .. too loosely defined, per gun? total? either way just another stupid proposal.

as far as a crowbar, most cars in the 80s and prior came with crowbar in in the trunk that had a head to take off the lugs of your tires. My last car had one, and after having to help someone change a tire I had it in my backseat.

I have heard of laws against 4 D-cell battery flashlights in my state

I agree, it likely will not happen. Shows the mindset, however. My guess is if if DID happen, most people would comply.

 

[A.Nonymous]

The bizarre thing is that cops carry large flashlights specifically for the purpose of being able to use them as a club if the situation calls for it.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I would lay odds (and I bet there are studies on it) that legalizing marijuana for medicinal use correlates with an increase in usage. It's too early to see results from Colorado's recent legalization of marijuana, but I'd lay odds that in the real world usage goes up as well.

When CA legalized it, you had to have a medical card. Those were handed out freely BECAUSE people who were not sick saw it as a way to smoke dope legally.

Bloody damm right use will go up. anyone who thinks otherwise is an abject moron!!!

 

[Ibrick]

When CA legalized it, you had to have a medical card. Those were handed out freely BECAUSE people who were not sick saw it as a way to smoke dope legally.

Bloody damm right use will go up. anyone who thinks otherwise is an abject moron!!!

That's not use going up. That's recreational users abusing the system.

Legal use would appear to go up, but would those applying for cards still be smoking regardless of the law? My money would be on absolutely.

 

[Speed Daemon]

I have never heard of someone being charged with having burglary tools...

Ignorance may be bliss, but it's not a suitable replacement for an actual point.

When it comes to the crowbar, or any of my tools for that matter, they are bought and paid for and have legitimate purposes. It shouldn't require having some elite status such as being "around a 911 center" (yes, I know how the system is rigged) in order to escape persecution.

By the same token, because the system is rigged, and favors a select few, leaving the rest of us at the mercy of the whim of a police system that has been given too much power, that is an excellent example of why gun owners (or any other group that's a target for profiling) shouldn't have any more special labels attached to their names. Breaking the system afurther is not a solution to anything.

The presumption of innocence only applies to those who have been legally accused of crimes.

Oh, I'm pretty sure it also applies to those who are illegally accused as well.

 

[Speed Daemon]

I have heard of laws against 4 D-cell battery flashlights in my state

Interesting. I've been given two of the 3 D-cell Maglites as gifts, and wondered who came up with that idea, considering that D-cells are sold in packs of 4, not 3. Then I realized that the battery makers profited from such waste. To think that otherwise innocent people are being punished with criminal penalties, and having their lives ruined for something as crass as to increase corporate profits! That's really twisted.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Interesting. I've been given two of the 3 D-cell Maglites as gifts, and wondered who came up with that idea, considering that D-cells are sold in packs of 4, not 3. Then I realized that the battery makers profited from such waste. To think that otherwise innocent people are being punished with criminal penalties, and having their lives ruined for something as crass as to increase corporate profits! That's really twisted.

You can relax. the poster you are replying to did not say there was such a law (and there is likely NO SUCH LAW) against such flashlights, only that he heard there was a law. Should there actually be such a law, I think you will beat the rap in court.

As for the Big Battery Conspiracy and waste, you are seeing too many scary things in your closet. No such conspiracy is underway. BTW, you can purchase 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 D-Cell Maglites, so no waste.

i personally recommend the 5 cell lights. Just the right size for finding things that go bump in the night and then beating them silly.

 

[Bob Maxey]

That's not use going up. That's recreational users abusing the system.

Legal use would appear to go up, but would those applying for cards still be smoking regardless of the law? My money would be on absolutely.

No, it is more people using it because it is "legal" and easy to get. Most definitely, legalization means increased use.