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%@#%@ the unions!

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cipher6 said:
I wouldn't call Rush a liar, but he ignores many nuances and details, in the name of a strengthening his argument and creating an entertaining and high rated show.
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His deductive reasoning is a train wreck. People love to observe a daily train wreck.
 
cipher6 said:
Then your aiming for a utopia that will never exist. And here we have to chalk it up to difference of opinion. You can manipulate data on paper all day long, but a society and economy isn't a bank account that can be administrated on paper. You can try all day long, for the magic tax rate or income ratio or this or that, and you will never get the utopia were everyone moves out of poverty, but you will most likely destroy your economy in the process.

Utopia's don't exist. Communism tried what your proposing, taking from each according to what they could afford, and giving to each according to what they needed. They collapsed. Their economy couldn't sustain itself. It might sound nice, you might even be able to work it all out with models and statistics on paper, but it will never work in real life, because human nature can't be reliably modeled, the human condition can not be captured with statistics and numbers. they are useful when applied correctly, but a dream where there are no poor people, where everyone works hard and does whats expected of them just won't happen.
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I'm not trying for a utopia. There are countries in existence right now that do an excellent job of what I want. If we met their standards (such as Denmark, Sweden and to a lesser degree Canada), it still wouldn't be a utopia, but it would be satisfactory.
 
Tom Ace said:
I do so love the tactics here. I provide explanation after explanation, and you guys just blatantly ignore them and ask for explanations. In my previous post, I explained why you and Rush are incorrect, along with saying that using anything Rush says is silly.

I don't really feel like explaining this to you again. If you want the explanation, refer to my last post to you. But the fact that you believe Rush never lies and that's where you get your opinions certainly explains how far gone you are. It really is sad that anyone takes him or his cohorts seriously.
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And I have asked you to give me one example of a Limbaugh Lie. So far, no go.
 
Tom Ace said:
Rush and other right-wingers aren't the only ones guilty of this. It happens on the left too, but not nearly as much and not nearly as misleadingly as Rush and Beck do it.
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I say they all do it, for any news, the product is an audience to sell to advertisers. NYT, WSJ, Rush, Beck, all of them... Beck and Rush are just really skilled and successful, which bugs a lot of people.

I'm not trying for a utopia. There are countries in existence right now that do an excellent job of what I want. If we met their standards (such as Denmark, Sweden and to a lesser degree Canada), it still wouldn't be a utopia, but it would be satisfactory.
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BS, Canada has junkies and poor people too. There will never be a society were everyone works hard and does whats expected of them. You will never eliminate poverty, there will always be some who choose it over doing whats expected.

Downtown Eastside - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, how do eliminate poverty in a world where there will always be people that don't want to work? Do you force a good life on them? Give them homes and cars and everything else?

Taxing the rich more isn't gonna eliminate poverty.
 
tom ace said:
If you work hard and get an education, you can do well in life, and more often than not, you do. I'm not looking for that to be the case half of the time or 75% of the time, though.
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And lets look at the numbers... what would be a good statistic for you? Work hard get an education and 80%? 90% What about 98.3%? Would you be satisfied if 98.3% of people who work hard and get an education do well in life?

The lowest poverty rates were reported by workers with a college degree (1.6%).

1.6% of people who get an education and work hard end up below the poverty line. Now, how many do you think get an education then addicted to drugs or just screw off their life and can't or don't want to hold a job? Could it be in the 1.6% range?

As you get less educated, the poverty rates go up... could it also be, the less people WANT to work hard and improve their lot, the lower the chance they will get higher education?
 
who needs unions when you have the gov?

News Headlines

Government payouts—including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance—make up more than a third of total wages and salaries of the U.S. population
 
cipher6 said:
I say they all do it, for any news, the product is an audience to sell to advertisers. NYT, WSJ, Rush, Beck, all of them... Beck and Rush are just really skilled and successful, which bugs a lot of people.
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As I said, some liberal outlets are pretty bad when it comes to reality and the truth, but I have yet to hear one that's as bad as Beck or Rush. The big difference is that people like those two intentionally ignore facts that get in their way.

BS, Canada has junkies and poor people too. There will never be a society were everyone works hard and does whats expected of them. You will never eliminate poverty, there will always be some who choose it over doing whats expected.

Downtown Eastside - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, how do eliminate poverty in a world where there will always be people that don't want to work? Do you force a good life on them? Give them homes and cars and everything else?

Taxing the rich more isn't gonna eliminate poverty.
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Please try to pay attention. I said I'm not trying for a utopia. I never said we need to end up with a situation where we have no poor people or people that ruin their own lives. What we should have is a system that reduces that as much as possible. That's why I gave examples of real countries that do a very good job with the issues I've mentioned. As I said, they're not perfect, but realistically they do about as good a job with most things as one can expect from a country.
 
cipher6 said:
And lets look at the numbers... what would be a good statistic for you? Work hard get an education and 80%? 90% What about 98.3%? Would you be satisfied if 98.3% of people who work hard and get an education do well in life?

The lowest poverty rates were reported by workers with a college degree (1.6%).

1.6% of people who get an education and work hard end up below the poverty line. Now, how many do you think get an education then addicted to drugs or just screw off their life and can't or don't want to hold a job? Could it be in the 1.6% range?

As you get less educated, the poverty rates go up... could it also be, the less people WANT to work hard and improve their lot, the lower the chance they will get higher education?
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Why are you only focusing on people with a college degree? Do you think someone should need a college degree to have a good chance of not living in poverty?
 
byteware said:
With the exception of the Clinton era regulations that I posted... you haven't refuted those yet.
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And what regulations were those, in your own words? I don't have anything to refute until you explain to me these supposed extra regulations you speak of.
 
Tom Ace said:
Well, no one said you were a good listener. Liberal policies didn't cause the recession. Greed is what caused it.
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Hey Moderators? Are you ready to ban me, cause here I go.

Tom, you are a vastly undereducated and ever so foolish child with zero understanding of finances, the government, the history of our country, and just about everything else you care to address. You will never succeed in this country because that chip wont fit through the factory door. You life will be spent answering to your masters that apparently, tell you what to think.

You are quite un-American and ever so pitiful. You have no original thinking to add to the topic unless you can find something on the web that was written by someone equal to you and in support of views that are clearly wrong and laughable.

You need to read something other than the reading list provided by your liberal masters that control your brain.

You quoted me above asking for example of a Limbaugh lie and not only do you not provide even one example, you accuse me of not being a good listener and you immediately start to defend liberal politics. Clearly, you need to read a god damn book or 45.

Bob
 
Bob Maxey said:
Hey Moderators? Are you ready to ban me, cause here I go.

Tom, you are a vastly undereducated and ever so foolish child with zero understanding of finances, the government, the history of our country, and just about everything else you care to address. You will never succeed in this country because that chip wont fit through the factory door. You life will be spent answering to your masters that apparently, tell you what to think.

You are quite un-American and ever so pitiful. You have no original thinking to add to the topic unless you can find something on the web that was written by someone equal to you and in support of views that are clearly wrong and laughable.

You need to read something other than the reading list provided by your liberal masters that control your brain.
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Again, I'm sure this makes you feel better, and I understand that going off like this with wild and false accusations is much easier than actually addressing real arguments with logic and reason. But if you ever want to try to understand things rationally, I'll be around to guide you through it.

You quoted me above asking for example of a Limbaugh lie and not only do you not provide even one example, you accuse me of not being a good listener and you immediately start to defend liberal politics. Clearly, you need to read a god damn book or 45.

Bob
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I guess it gets pretty frustrating when you have such flimsy arguments, but if you could calm down for a minute, you'd realize I already told you a Rush lie. Liberal policies, despite what Rush says, did not cause the recession. The recession was not caused by the government forcing banks to give out all kinds of stupid loans. If you decide you want to respond again, please take the time to read before doing so. Also, it would help if instead of just letting your emotions do your thinking and talking, you used logic and reason instead. I can teach you how to do it, if you want.
 
Tom Ace said:
Why are you only focusing on people with a college degree? Do you think someone should need a college degree to have a good chance of not living in poverty?
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Because you said this:

If you work hard and get an education, you can do well in life, and more often than not, you do. I'm not looking for that to be the case half of the time or 75% of the time, though.
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The numbers show, get a college degree and work hard and you'll do good 98+% of the time. Less than high school educations, your still running a 83.5% success rate.

I agree, some of that 16.5% working poor, have bad luck and might have fallen on bad times... But I also think a large chunk are people not willing to put in their share of work.

I'm a perfect example of you don't need college education to succeed. Never went to college, but I'm still doing good, and continually improving my career and income.

What is it about Canada and Denmark you would like to emulate in the United States?
 
Tom Ace said:
Yup, and now explain to me what the extra regulations were in that post of yours. It's OK; I'll wait.
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It appears that you want to debate my words on the regulations, instead of discussing the regulations themselves.

Is that the case? or do you truly not understand the regulations that I posted?

There is no point in discussing my interpretation. The regulations are right there that prove my point.

If you cannot counter or discuss the regulations themselves, then state that, and I will explain them to you, and we can discuss them.

So, again... do you not understand them, or are you attempting to distract from them since you can't argue against them?
 
Tom Ace said:
And what regulations were those, in your own words?
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The regulations that I posted.

Why are you trying to get them "in my words", when they are right freaking there?

They are what we need to discuss. Quit distracting from them, and discuss THEM.

If you don't understand them, then I will gladly translate.

Tom Ace said:
I don't have anything to refute until you explain to me these supposed extra regulations you speak of.
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Do you not understand them? Or are you simply trying to distract from them?
 
cipher6 said:
Because you said this:

The numbers show, get a college degree and work hard and you'll do good 98+% of the time. Less than high school educations, your still running a 83.5% success rate.
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Even with those numbers, that's only to get out of poverty. I wouldn't call being a little bit above poverty "doing good" or a "success".

But really, that's one minor point. My point is that if you work hard, you shouldn't have to worry about poverty at all. If you also get a good education (at least a Bachelor's), you shouldn't be anywhere near poverty.

I agree, some of that 16.5% working poor, have bad luck and might have fallen on bad times... But I also think a large chunk are people not willing to put in their share of work.
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I don't think that's the best way to look at it. Without a doubt there are just lazy people who don't deserve anything. However, part of the problem many times is the culture kids grow up in. People assume that everyone is equally capable of realizing what they should do and how they should do it. Someone who grows up in poverty and doesn't have the same mental capacity as you or me might not have the same understanding of the world as we do.

I'm a perfect example of you don't need college education to succeed. Never went to college, but I'm still doing good, and continually improving my career and income.
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Sure, there are a lot of individual examples of people who either worked their way out of poverty or do well without a higher education. It's not that it doesn't happen; it's just that it's harder than a lot of people realize.

What is it about Canada and Denmark you would like to emulate in the United States?
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A lot of things: universal healthcare, good income equality, low unemployment rate, good unemployment system, good tax system, good GDP, among others.
 
byteware said:
It appears that you want to debate my words on the regulations, instead of discussing the regulations themselves.

Is that the case? or do you truly not understand the regulations that I posted?
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No, I want you to point out which of those things you posted you consider to be regulations.

I want you to say "This particular thing right here...was a new regulation".
 
Even with those numbers, that's only to get out of poverty. I wouldn't call being a little bit above poverty "doing good" or a "success".
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So, how do you define a good life or "doing good?"

But really, that's one minor point. My point is that if you work hard, you shouldn't have to worry about poverty at all. If you also get a good education (at least a Bachelor's), you shouldn't be anywhere near poverty.
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So, get that degree, then you can screw off the rest of your life? What about they guy that gets his degree then turns into a junky, or the guy that got a degree but gets into fist fights with his boss at every job? Is it just a degree then you should be guaranteed a decent income the rest of your life no matter what? What about someone who cheats their way through college then can't do simple things in their job? I've seen an engineer who didn't know how to calculate a slope.

How much personal responsibility do you require out of an individual?

I don't think that's the best way to look at it. Without a doubt there are just lazy people who don't deserve anything. However, part of the problem many times is the culture kids grow up in.
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I think I mentioned that a few pages ago. Culture not so much tax rates are what keeps generations poor... Nice to see you coming around a bit.

People assume that everyone is equally capable of realizing what they should do and how they should do it. Someone who grows up in poverty and doesn't have the same mental capacity as you or me might not have the same understanding of the world as we do.
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So, is that a failure of government or parents? What should we do? Push for a big public emphasis on the benefits of education and working hard? Should we deny poor people the right to raise their children? Or should we just give the children who grow up without being taught how to make it in the world prosperity? It's not their fault their parents didn't force them to study instead of roaming the streets, so lets just give them a nice house and car? Do you think that would end the perpetuation of that culture of entitlements and not working hard for what you want or make it worse?


Sure, there are a lot of individual examples of people who either worked their way out of poverty or do well without a higher education. It's not that it doesn't happen; it's just that it's harder than a lot of people realize.
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Life is too hard, so the government should do the work for you? I don't buy into that idea. Life IS hard, for everyone (some more than others.) But thats the way its always been, for all civilizations. Life will always be hard to some extent, you will always have to work. Government can't take that fact away. And, as you've noted its very easy, once you get the right attitude, to make it in our society, so I don't get what the issue is. Should the government raise all kids so they are instilled with the right attitude?

A lot of things: universal healthcare, good income equality, low unemployment rate, good unemployment system, good tax system, good GDP, among others.
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Whens the last time you heard anything about the power of the Danish entrepreneur changing the shape of world? Can you name any famous Danish inventors that changed the face of society? Sure there are some, but its not what their known for.

Yes, more and more public handouts can create more "equality", meaning less rich and less poor. But at the expense of personal liberty and freedoms. Its a difference in a countries philosophies, and I like ours. Whats nice, is in our free society, your free to roam the world.

French President Sarkozy spelled it out well in a speech to congress in 2007.

America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who
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Tom Ace said:
No, I want you to point out which of those things you posted you consider to be regulations.

I want you to say "This particular thing right here...was a new regulation".
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I think wikipedia sums it up best, for all you one cause folks.

The crisis can be attributed to a number of factors pervasive in both housing and credit markets, factors which emerged over a number of years. Causes proposed include the inability of homeowners to make their mortgage payments (due primarily to adjustable-rate mortgages resetting, borrowers overextending, predatory lending, and speculation), overbuilding during the boom period, risky mortgage products, high personal and corporate debt levels, financial products that distributed and perhaps concealed the risk of mortgage default, bad monetary and housing policies, international trade imbalances, and inappropriate government regulation
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And:

In its "Declaration of the Summit on Financial Markets and the World Economy," dated 15 November 2008, leaders of the Group of 20 cited the following causes:
During a period of strong global growth, growing capital flows, and prolonged stability earlier this decade, market participants sought higher yields without an adequate appreciation of the risks and failed to exercise proper due diligence. At the same time, weak underwriting standards, unsound risk management practices, increasingly complex and opaque financial products, and consequent excessive leverage combined to create vulnerabilities in the system. Policy-makers, regulators and supervisors, in some advanced countries, did not adequately appreciate and address the risks building up in financial markets, keep pace with financial innovation, or take into account the systemic ramifications of domestic regulatory actions.[
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