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US Federal Elections 2012

I think those missing tax returns showing Romney's illegal foreign bank accounts, which he received amnesty is more outrageous, but each his own.

"Mitt Romney turned in a polished performance in last night's presidential debate
 
ElasticNinja said:
All I heard is that Romney won, and Obama sounded tired or something.
I wonder how the next one will go though. It sounded as if Obama was too calm and conservative as usual, I wonder will he change his game.
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Obama looked and sounded taken aback. There were times he looked frustrated and came off as if he was on the defense. Romney came off looking like he was in control. As expected, both guys lied their asses off. Romney is being called on the carpet for it though and Obama given a free pass. It's ridiculous.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Obama looked and sounded taken aback. There were times he looked frustrated and came off as if he was on the defense. Romney came off looking like he was in control. As expected, both guys lied their asses off. Romney is being called on the carpet for it though and Obama given a free pass. It's ridiculous.
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In all fairness, Romney has spent months bullshitting while Obama has, in general, at worst told half-truths or exaggerated. Not quite ridiculous.
 
Every report of the President acting poorly comes with glowing praise of Romney. I saw the debate. The President didn't look or sound bad at all. No "looking away", watch-gazing or anything like that.

OTOH Romney's inability to control himself when it came to hogging time and always getting the last word was still creepy. Not as bad as in the primaries, but still pretty bad.

Romney probably won if only because the low information voters don't know that the chances of him keeping any of those promises are nil, based on past history.

I guess that's all that matters at this late date. Even I didn't care enough to parse the rhetoric that I've heard a thousand times before.
 
Well, of course Romney is full of shit too.

Look at his comments of Spain, about the US and Spain spending 42% of GDP on government. Yet who gets more services and which one has a lower budget deficit?
 
Speed Daemon said:
Every report of the President acting poorly comes with glowing praise of Romney. I saw the debate. The President didn't look or sound bad at all. No "looking away", watch-gazing or anything like that.

OTOH Romney's inability to control himself when it came to hogging time and always getting the last word was still creepy. Not as bad as in the primaries, but still pretty bad.

Romney probably won if only because the low information voters don't know that the chances of him keeping any of those promises are nil, based on past history.

I guess that's all that matters at this late date. Even I didn't care enough to parse the rhetoric that I've heard a thousand times before.
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Romney didn't exactly "hog time". Obama got a full 5 mins or so more than he did. I watched the debate. The President was constantly looking down, pursing his lips, etc... A humorous look from a Taiwanese site I think - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iNhUI8ktHuw#!

And yes, Obama launched his share of bald faced lies. He claimed Romney proposes a $5 trillion tax cut which isn't true. He claims that premiums have gone up slower in the last two years and it's because of Obamacare which isn't true. He claimed that he'd raise taxes only to the Clinton era levels which isn't true and he claimed his "$4 trillion" deficit reduction plan which isn't true either. But we're going to claim these are "half truths" though.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Romney didn't exactly "hog time". Obama got a full 5 mins or so more than he did. I watched the debate. The President was constantly looking down, pursing his lips, etc..
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I've read several interesting pieces today about presidential candidate body language and what it conveys. However, I want to point out that all the instances of Obama looking down and seeming to convey deference or defeat was actually something else entirely - he was writing! You can see him very clearly taking notes as Romney speaks. I'm not sure how I'm the only one to notice this, but I definitely don't think this somehow puts him in a negative light.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Romney didn't exactly "hog time". Obama got a full 5 mins or so more than he did. I watched the debate. The President was constantly looking down, pursing his lips, etc...
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Sorry but your ridiculing of the President's facial expressions doesn't equate to time. The truth is that Romney was constantly interrupting and demanding time that he didn't deserve. And the moderator did cave in and give it to him. I have the video as proof.

Since you brought it up, precisely what is so wrong with the President taking notes as Romney spoke? You did notice that was what the President was doing because you watched, right?

And yes, Obama launched his share of bald faced lies. He claimed Romney proposes a $5 trillion tax cut which isn't true. He claims that premiums have gone up slower in the last two years and it's because of Obamacare which isn't true. He claimed that he'd raise taxes only to the Clinton era levels which isn't true and he claimed his "$4 trillion" deficit reduction plan which isn't true either. But we're going to claim these are "half truths" though.
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Considering how many contradictory claims that Romney has made, it's not fair to say that someone who tried to score a constantly changing story a liar. Although it's fair to say you have a difference of opinion about specific numbers (factcheck.org thinks that the money saved by Obama ending Gulf War II shouldn't go to Obama's credit), calling him a liar over it is less than honest. The concept of an estimate is well understood. Estimates are not lies.

To his credit the President made the effort to make estimates and cite real numbers instead of saying "elect me and then I'll tell you". If you prefer a mystery plan over a real plan with numbers that will only "firm up" when it actually happens, that's your choice.
 
RazorSharp said:
I've read several interesting pieces today about presidential candidate body language and what it conveys. However, I want to point out that all the instances of Obama looking down and seeming to convey deference or defeat was actually something else entirely - he was writing! You can see him very clearly taking notes as Romney speaks. I'm not sure how I'm the only one to notice this, but I definitely don't think this somehow puts him in a negative light.
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Looks like it's two of us. And I have video from two separate networks to prove it. To all those who took cheap shots against the President: nice try, but we got ya!
 
Speed Daemon said:
Sorry but your ridiculing of the President's facial expressions doesn't equate to time. The truth is that Romney was constantly interrupting and demanding time that he didn't deserve. And the moderator did cave in and give it to him. I have the video as proof.
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Once again, Obama got a full 5 mins or so more of speaking time than Romney did. So, if Romney was "hogging time" he sure did not do a good job of it since the President got significantly more time than he did.

Considering how many contradictory claims that Romney has made, it's not fair to say that someone who tried to score a constantly changing story a liar. Although it's fair to say you have a difference of opinion about specific numbers (factcheck.org thinks that the money saved by Obama ending Gulf War II shouldn't go to Obama's credit), calling him a liar over it is less than honest. The concept of an estimate is well understood. Estimates are not lies.
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Here's the example I saw on one site. I'm too tired to see if it was Factcheck or some place else. Let's say you borrow $50k a year every year for four years to go to college. Then you graduate. Can you really say you are saving $500k over the next ten years? Is that an honest statement? That is exactly what Obama is saying. The irony is that when Bush didn't include those numbers in order to make his budget estimates look smaller the Democrats called him on it. Bush's argument was that we didn't know if we'd still be at war then, if the war would be worse or better, etc... therefore such estimates would be inaccurate. Dems still called him on it claiming he was avoiding including them to make his deficits look smaller. Now they gladly claim them (even though they don't exist) in order to inflate their numbers. It's a complete lie and, again, it's one that both sides tell quite willingly when it suits their purpose.

To his credit the President made the effort to make estimates and cite real numbers instead of saying "elect me and then I'll tell you". If you prefer a mystery plan over a real plan with numbers that will only "firm up" when it actually happens, that's your choice.
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I'd prefer neither of the above. Since both agree that we should go further into debt I'll pass on both and look for someone who's actually fiscally responsible.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Once again, Obama got a full 5 mins or so more of speaking time than Romney did. So, if Romney was "hogging time" he sure did not do a good job of it since the President got significantly more time than he did.
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Incorrect.

Romney - 50:24
Obama - 31:06
 
wow ........ I cant even find those numbers on the most liberal of sites..... even they know how to tell time and every one of them say Obama had over 4 minutes more time speaking than Romney

but its your story.... tell it how you want....... stick to the liberal motto.... 'never let the facts get in the way of a good story'
 
I watched the debate and was shocked that the polls said Romney won by such a big margin. It seemed to me that Obama was content to give Romney the rope to continue hanging himself. Problem with that is, apparently most Americans are too dumb to notice that Romney seemingly changed all the positions he's been running on overnight. Most politicians are bad, but Romney takes flip flopping to a whole different level. He just appears to have no core values whatsoever. He's now trying to take back his 47% comments after just saying he stood behind them. This guy truly scares me because we honestly have no idea what he really believes in besides his twin obsessions of making money and the Cult of Mormonism.
 
Gmash said:
I watched the debate and was shocked that the polls said Romney won by such a big margin. It seemed to me that Obama was content to give Romney the rope to continue hanging himself. Problem with that is, apparently most Americans are too dumb to notice that Romney seemingly changed all the positions he's been running on overnight. Most politicians are bad, but Romney takes flip flopping to a whole different level. He just appears to have no core values whatsoever. He's now trying to take back his 47% comments after just saying he stood behind them. This guy truly scares me because we honestly have no idea what he really believes in besides his twin obsessions of making money and the Cult of Mormonism.
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Here's the thing with debates (and politicians in general)...only ~7% of winning/losing comes from what they actually say. ~38% comes from how they say it and ~55% comes from their non-verbal communication (i.e. where they are looking while the other person is talking).
 
I googled those alleged times and came up with nothing. The numbers showing Obama speaking for nearly 5 mins longer are from CNN and a number of other places so I'm willing to rely on them in absence of anything else from a credible source.
 
It looks like Koch and Rowe have a heated contest to see which can cheat, lie, and steal the most.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/05/u...y-voter-fraud-claims.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"The Florida Department of Law Enforcement said it was reviewing "numerous" claims involving a company that Mr. Sproul runs to determine if a criminal investigation is warranted. Complaints have surfaced in 10 Florida counties, among them allegations that registrations had similar signatures or false addresses, or were filed under the names of dead people. In other cases, party affiliations appeared to have been changed.

In recent days, similar claims against Mr. Sproul have arisen in Nevada and Colorado. Mr. Sproul, 40, a former executive director of the Arizona Christian Coalition and the Republican Party in Arizona, is well known in political circles there. Since 2004, Mr. Sproul's companies - he has operated under several corporate names - have collected more than $17.6 million from Republican committees, candidates and the "super PAC" American Crossroads, mostly for voter registration operations, according to campaign finance records."
 
A.Nonymous said:
I googled those alleged times and came up with nothing. The numbers showing Obama speaking for nearly 5 mins longer are from CNN and a number of other places so I'm willing to rely on them in absence of anything else from a credible source.
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My mistake, I got the times from an infographic, but clearly I should have done more research to corroborate!
 
RazorSharp said:
My mistake, I got the times from an infographic, but clearly I should have done more research to corroborate!
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no big deal.... you just failed to read what your numbers were actually representing

let me clarify them for you:

Romney - 50:24 (amount of time spent bitchslapping an idiot)
Obama - 31:06 (amount of time spent staring at shoes in shame)
 
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