RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
No problem. My response probably sounded harsh but I was just trying to help save us both time. I hope this solution works for you and your boss.
-
After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.
We can now synchronize Outlook & Android without a 3rd party app or Exchange Server!
- Thread starter RazzMaTazz
- Start date
purpledog10
Lurker
This is fantastic! Thank you so much for this, RazzMaTazz. It's even better than my Blackberry since I don't have to use a desktop interface; it's all automatic in the background. Almost perfect with the only thing missing is syncing the categories, but I can live with that. Thanks!
obladioblada
Newbie
It is great!
Did you know that Tasks (To-do items) also sync between Web Hotmail and the Android Phone? (It does so on my HTC Sensation). It is just pity that it does not sync back to Outlook through the Outlook Connector!
Did you know that Tasks (To-do items) also sync between Web Hotmail and the Android Phone? (It does so on my HTC Sensation). It is just pity that it does not sync back to Outlook through the Outlook Connector!
Thank you Razz for figuring this out and helping everyone!
Ok, I have a new question. Hopefully you or someone can help me with, because I am seriously stumped. As I have mentioned before, I am doing this for my two bosses and their phones. Everything worked out ok with my first boss, now I am in the process of doing boss #2's phone.
I installed outlook connector on my computer, added her hotmail, and transferred all of her contacts, so I could sit throughout the day and clean them up and merge before adding the connector on to her computer. So, I cleaned them all up and looking pretty. I go to her computer, add her hotmail to her connector, and the contacts show up looking completely different on her computer!! As in most of them don't even have addresses, where as mine do on my computer. So, I don't understand how her hotmail contacts look one way on my computer but then totally different and messed up on her computer.
Ok, I have a new question. Hopefully you or someone can help me with, because I am seriously stumped. As I have mentioned before, I am doing this for my two bosses and their phones. Everything worked out ok with my first boss, now I am in the process of doing boss #2's phone.
I installed outlook connector on my computer, added her hotmail, and transferred all of her contacts, so I could sit throughout the day and clean them up and merge before adding the connector on to her computer. So, I cleaned them all up and looking pretty. I go to her computer, add her hotmail to her connector, and the contacts show up looking completely different on her computer!! As in most of them don't even have addresses, where as mine do on my computer. So, I don't understand how her hotmail contacts look one way on my computer but then totally different and messed up on her computer.
julian8690f
Lurker
Hi! I've gone through this thread carefully and was trying to fix my Samsung Galaxy Note.
After a while, I managed to sync my Contacts but for some reason, not my Calendar entries.
To clarify, I managed to sync my Outlook Calendar to Hotmail the first time. My entries go all the way back to 2 Dec 2002 and its in Hotmail and consequently, also sync to my Galaxy Note Calendar.
However, after that first sync, I can't seem to sync my Outlook Calendar to Hotmail anymore.
Changes made in Outlook Calendar are not picked up in Hotmail Calendar.
Obviously, these entries are then not synced to my Galaxy Note Calendar.
I hope I'm making sense and that someone can help me.
Thanks.
After a while, I managed to sync my Contacts but for some reason, not my Calendar entries.
To clarify, I managed to sync my Outlook Calendar to Hotmail the first time. My entries go all the way back to 2 Dec 2002 and its in Hotmail and consequently, also sync to my Galaxy Note Calendar.
However, after that first sync, I can't seem to sync my Outlook Calendar to Hotmail anymore.
Changes made in Outlook Calendar are not picked up in Hotmail Calendar.
Obviously, these entries are then not synced to my Galaxy Note Calendar.
I hope I'm making sense and that someone can help me.
Thanks.
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
Glad to hear you got it working for boss #1.
It's not clear to me how you "transferred" your bosses contacts to your PC. The best way would have been to add your boss's Hotmail account to your PC and let the contacts sync (Send/Receive) through the Hotmail server. If both your PC and your boss's PC are syncing to the same Hotmail account, then your edits should synchronize back through Hotmail's servers. (I regularly add & edit my contacts on my laptop PC, desktop PC, & Android phones, and they all sync.)
Do your edits show up on Hotmail's web interface? If not, then your PC isn't syncing to Hotmail's servers. If so, then your boss's PC isn't syncing to Hotmail's servers. In either of those cases, you should check the Send/Receive settings of each PC to mak sure that each PC is syncing with Hotmail's servers.
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
What do you mean by "Outlook Calendar" and what do you mean by "Hotmail Calendar"? Once you've copied contacts and calendar events from the contacts and calendar folders in your Outlook Data File to your Hotmail account (through Outlook), you need to stop using the contacts and calendar folders in your Outlook Data File, and start using the contacts and calendar folders in your Hotmail account (though Outlook).
julian8690f
Lurker
Apologies for not being clear.
What I meant was I entered an event in Outlook (Hotmail calendar) but when I sync Outlook (with Hotmail), it doesn't appear in Hotmail Calendar.
However, I've just checked my Hotmail Calendar and it's now synced!
But this is after a delay of 12 hours!
So now I know it works, I never doubted it........but it's delayed for way far too long.
Question: Why is this so (long delay) and how can I quicken it?
Next, I tested adding an event in my Galaxy Note calendar and syncing it to Hotmail.
This works perfectly and the event appeared in Hotmail Calendar almost immediately.
However, to my frustrations, my Galaxy Note calendar is not picking up events from Hotmail Calendar.
(even the ones above that were delayed from my Outlook to Hotmail for >12 hours)
Question: Why is this so and how can I fix this (on my Galaxy Note)?
Thanks!
What I meant was I entered an event in Outlook (Hotmail calendar) but when I sync Outlook (with Hotmail), it doesn't appear in Hotmail Calendar.
However, I've just checked my Hotmail Calendar and it's now synced!
But this is after a delay of 12 hours!
So now I know it works, I never doubted it........but it's delayed for way far too long.
Question: Why is this so (long delay) and how can I quicken it?
Next, I tested adding an event in my Galaxy Note calendar and syncing it to Hotmail.
This works perfectly and the event appeared in Hotmail Calendar almost immediately.
However, to my frustrations, my Galaxy Note calendar is not picking up events from Hotmail Calendar.
(even the ones above that were delayed from my Outlook to Hotmail for >12 hours)
Question: Why is this so and how can I fix this (on my Galaxy Note)?
Thanks!
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
The synchronization of a contact or event between your PC and the Hotmail servers should occur at your PC's next successful "Send/Receive" (F9). However, sometimes Outlook has sync problems (for any number of reasons).
On your PC, if you create a contact or calendar event and hit Send/Receive (F9), and then if you watch the Send/Receive progress box, it should display a green check mark if Hotmail synced properly. (Is the Send/Receive Progress window telling you that it synced properly?) If so, then the contact or event should be available on the Hotmail servers, and viewable through the Hotmail web interface. (Is it viewable through the Hotmail's web interface?) You can change Outlook's automatic Send/Receive frequency in the Send/Receive Settings. I set mine to 5 minutes. (Note that "Offline" means through the Internet, but not connected to a Microsoft Exchange Server. "Online" means when connected to a Microsoft Exchange Server.)
On your Android device you can set your Hotmail synchronization frequency as described in the original post. (I set mine for "push" so that it happens immediately.) If you create a contact or event on your phone and synchronize (manually or wait until the next automatic synchronization), then the new contact or event should sync with the Hotmail servers and you should be able to view it through the Hotmail web interface. (Is it quickly viewable through the Hotmail web interface?)
On your PC, if you create a contact or calendar event and hit Send/Receive (F9), and then if you watch the Send/Receive progress box, it should display a green check mark if Hotmail synced properly. (Is the Send/Receive Progress window telling you that it synced properly?) If so, then the contact or event should be available on the Hotmail servers, and viewable through the Hotmail web interface. (Is it viewable through the Hotmail's web interface?) You can change Outlook's automatic Send/Receive frequency in the Send/Receive Settings. I set mine to 5 minutes. (Note that "Offline" means through the Internet, but not connected to a Microsoft Exchange Server. "Online" means when connected to a Microsoft Exchange Server.)
On your Android device you can set your Hotmail synchronization frequency as described in the original post. (I set mine for "push" so that it happens immediately.) If you create a contact or event on your phone and synchronize (manually or wait until the next automatic synchronization), then the new contact or event should sync with the Hotmail servers and you should be able to view it through the Hotmail web interface. (Is it quickly viewable through the Hotmail web interface?)
julian8690f
Lurker
Thanks for your quick answer!
Really appreciate the feedback.
I have followed your settings, i.e. auto-sync every 5 minutes.
I also 'force-sync' last night.
That's why I'm so confused.
The event from Outlook only appeared in Hotmail after a very long delay.
So much so, I thought that it couldn't sync (hence my initial post to this forum).
It's the same with my Galaxy Note.
I'm 'force-syncing' it and the updated events in Hotmail Calendar (from Outlook) just doesn't appear in my Galaxy Note.
I'm grasping at straws here but could it be that my Calendar data is too huge? I've got data/events going back to 2002.
The funny this is that I've tested my Galaxy Note Calendar by creating an event today and it appeared in my Hotmail Calendar almost immediately when I sync'ed.
Consequently, when I sync'ed my Outlook to Hotmail, that same event appeared in my Outlook....no problems, i.e. it works from Galaxy Note-->Hotmail-->Outlook.
Maybe there's some delays at Hotmail servers?
By the way, I'm in Malaysia and I appreciate that this may be odd hours for you in the USA......so thanks so much for taking the time to answer me.
Really appreciate the feedback.
I have followed your settings, i.e. auto-sync every 5 minutes.
I also 'force-sync' last night.
That's why I'm so confused.
The event from Outlook only appeared in Hotmail after a very long delay.
So much so, I thought that it couldn't sync (hence my initial post to this forum).
It's the same with my Galaxy Note.
I'm 'force-syncing' it and the updated events in Hotmail Calendar (from Outlook) just doesn't appear in my Galaxy Note.
I'm grasping at straws here but could it be that my Calendar data is too huge?
I've got data/events going back to 2002.The funny this is that I've tested my Galaxy Note Calendar by creating an event today and it appeared in my Hotmail Calendar almost immediately when I sync'ed.
Consequently, when I sync'ed my Outlook to Hotmail, that same event appeared in my Outlook....no problems, i.e. it works from Galaxy Note-->Hotmail-->Outlook.
Maybe there's some delays at Hotmail servers?
By the way, I'm in Malaysia and I appreciate that this may be odd hours for you in the USA......so thanks so much for taking the time to answer me.
julian8690f
Lurker
Hi RazzMaTazz, I've just checked my Galaxy Note Calendar and everything's there!!!!
For some reason, the events are only appearing after >24 hours!
Could it be due to the amount of data I am syncing?
Maybe I should try to sync only 6 months or less (instead of 'all calendar')?
I'm glad that it works but I need this sync to work faster.
12 or 24 hours delay simply doesn't work for me.
In fact, anything > 5 minutes gets me jumpy and worried.
For some reason, the events are only appearing after >24 hours!
Could it be due to the amount of data I am syncing?
Maybe I should try to sync only 6 months or less (instead of 'all calendar')?
I'm glad that it works but I need this sync to work faster.
12 or 24 hours delay simply doesn't work for me.
In fact, anything > 5 minutes gets me jumpy and worried.
julian8690f
Lurker
Hi RazzMaTazz, I'm sorry for cluttering up this forum.
I've changed my sync settings to 6 months on my Galaxy Note and it works perfectly now.
The syncs are almost instantaneous now.
Perhaps I should also clarify that I deleted all the 'local' Galaxy Note Calendar events (called My Calendar in Galaxy Note).
Basically, what's left on my Galaxy Note Calendar is only my Hotmail Calendar.
I think that was the issue and if so, it's disappointing because I didn't have this issue with iPhone 4 before, which allowed to sync all my events up to 2002.
Again, I apologise for taking up space....maybe I should have posted to a dedicated Galaxy Note forum.
Nevertheless, I've learnt so much from this forum and am really grateful for everyone's input and advice.
Thanks.
I've changed my sync settings to 6 months on my Galaxy Note and it works perfectly now.
The syncs are almost instantaneous now.
Perhaps I should also clarify that I deleted all the 'local' Galaxy Note Calendar events (called My Calendar in Galaxy Note).
Basically, what's left on my Galaxy Note Calendar is only my Hotmail Calendar.
I think that was the issue and if so, it's disappointing because I didn't have this issue with iPhone 4 before, which allowed to sync all my events up to 2002.
Again, I apologise for taking up space....maybe I should have posted to a dedicated Galaxy Note forum.
Nevertheless, I've learnt so much from this forum and am really grateful for everyone's input and advice.
Thanks.
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
My calendar has very old data (going back several years) but I have no problem instantly syncing in either direction. I would expect the synchronization software to be smart enough to to only deal with new/revised contacts & events, and so I wouldn't expect old data to cause recurring sync lag. (And again, the years-old calendar data doesn't cause me lag.) It sounds like some kind of issue with the Galaxy's Calendar software. Thanks for taking the time to post your solution. Maybe it'll help other Samsung owners.
obladioblada
Newbie
All works well for me. My question is:
The Outlook-Hotmail-Connector syncs all Outlook folders to the web-based account. Can I disable it from syncing the Outbox but keep the sync with the other folders (Inbox, Sent Items, Calendar, Contacts etc.)
The reason for this: My Outlook is set to send via my own mail provider. If for some reason the mail in Outbox is not sent immediately, the item in Outlook/Outbox syncs to the WebHotmail/Outbox and is being sent from there and the recipient gets: “sent from aaaaXXXX@live.com on behalf of YYYYYY”
aaaaXXXX is a meaningless prefix (I do not have a real Live/Hotmail account just Windows Live ID) and YYYYY is my normal mail provider.
If the recipient does not notice this and uses “Reply” his reply to me is not delivered and he gets an error message.
The Outlook-Hotmail-Connector syncs all Outlook folders to the web-based account. Can I disable it from syncing the Outbox but keep the sync with the other folders (Inbox, Sent Items, Calendar, Contacts etc.)
The reason for this: My Outlook is set to send via my own mail provider. If for some reason the mail in Outbox is not sent immediately, the item in Outlook/Outbox syncs to the WebHotmail/Outbox and is being sent from there and the recipient gets: “sent from aaaaXXXX@live.com on behalf of YYYYYY”
aaaaXXXX is a meaningless prefix (I do not have a real Live/Hotmail account just Windows Live ID) and YYYYY is my normal mail provider.
If the recipient does not notice this and uses “Reply” his reply to me is not delivered and he gets an error message.
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
Obla: I have multiple accounts on Outlook from AT&T, Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo, etc., but I have never seen the behavior that you describe. In fact, I just tried to replicate that behavior by going offline and shutting down Outlook with non-Hotmail emails sitting in my Hotmail Outbox, but I couldn't replicate your problem.
The outgoing mail server for any particular email is determined by the outgoing mail server settings for account that particular email was sent "From:". If you compose a new email, then in the upper left of the email, you can select the "From" account. If, for example, that "From:" account is set to Name@YadaYada.com AND if your outgoing mail server for that account is SMTP.YadaYada.com, then to my knowledge (and in my 15 years of using Outlook) that email will be sent from YadaYada.com's SMTP server. Always. It would never be sent from Name@Live.com or the Live.com outgoing mail server.
If you default data file is your Live.com account, then an email "From:" Name@YadaYada.com might sit in your Live.com outbox on Outlook before going out. But it should actually be sent from the YadaYada.com mail server. (That's the way mine works.)
Are you sure that you're sending your emails "From:" the right account? You can set the default "From:" email account, but how you do that depends on your version of Outlook. It is worth noting that with older versions of Outlook (XP & 2003) when you composed a new email the default "From:" account would appear in the upper left of the email, and you could override that by selecting another account in the drop-down menu. I'm not sure about Outlook 2007 (which I skipped) but with Outlook 2010, that default "From:" account is typically, automatically overriden based on the emal account (Inbox, sent items, etc.) you're currently viewing at the time that you create a new email. (But you can override Outlook 2010's choice using the "From:" drop-down menu.) So in Outlook 2010, even if your default mail account is set to YadaYada.com, but you compose an email while viewing your Live.com Inbox, your "From:" box will show Name@Live.com and your email will be sent from the Live.com servers unless you override the "From:" account.
As a somewhat related side note that may be of interest (although it doesn't solve your problem), only recipients who use Outlook will get the "sent on behalf of" notice. That's a safety feature that Microsoft built-into Outlook to help Outlook users avoid spoof-email scams. I don't know of any other email reader that provides such a notice.
The outgoing mail server for any particular email is determined by the outgoing mail server settings for account that particular email was sent "From:". If you compose a new email, then in the upper left of the email, you can select the "From" account. If, for example, that "From:" account is set to Name@YadaYada.com AND if your outgoing mail server for that account is SMTP.YadaYada.com, then to my knowledge (and in my 15 years of using Outlook) that email will be sent from YadaYada.com's SMTP server. Always. It would never be sent from Name@Live.com or the Live.com outgoing mail server.
If you default data file is your Live.com account, then an email "From:" Name@YadaYada.com might sit in your Live.com outbox on Outlook before going out. But it should actually be sent from the YadaYada.com mail server. (That's the way mine works.)
Are you sure that you're sending your emails "From:" the right account? You can set the default "From:" email account, but how you do that depends on your version of Outlook. It is worth noting that with older versions of Outlook (XP & 2003) when you composed a new email the default "From:" account would appear in the upper left of the email, and you could override that by selecting another account in the drop-down menu. I'm not sure about Outlook 2007 (which I skipped) but with Outlook 2010, that default "From:" account is typically, automatically overriden based on the emal account (Inbox, sent items, etc.) you're currently viewing at the time that you create a new email. (But you can override Outlook 2010's choice using the "From:" drop-down menu.) So in Outlook 2010, even if your default mail account is set to YadaYada.com, but you compose an email while viewing your Live.com Inbox, your "From:" box will show Name@Live.com and your email will be sent from the Live.com servers unless you override the "From:" account.
As a somewhat related side note that may be of interest (although it doesn't solve your problem), only recipients who use Outlook will get the "sent on behalf of" notice. That's a safety feature that Microsoft built-into Outlook to help Outlook users avoid spoof-email scams. I don't know of any other email reader that provides such a notice.
obladioblada
Newbie
Just to make it clear: This is a very minor issue. In 99.9% of the time Outlook has no problem sending the mail using the SMTP account of my provider (Name@btinternet.com). Only in those rare instances that btinternet.com's SMTP server is not available, it is being synced to web-hotmail BEFORE Outlook has had the chance to send it via btinternet.com and since it now sits in web hotmail's Outbox it is delivered from there as if I have composed it in web hotmail and NOT in outlook
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
I'm stumped. Sounds like a job for Microsoft support team. I'd be interested to hear if you find a solution. Good luck!
2BH
Member
I am on day 2 of my new Razr and have discovered a problem with the stock email client. When I replied to an email on my old DInc, the icon in Outlook would show that I replied to the email, with the Razr it does not. Exchange email is a huge part of my day and knowing which emails I replied to while on the road and which I need to reply to when back at my desk with Outlook is very important.
A secondary problem is that when in Outlook, it also does not allow me to open all related messages to an email like I could when using my DInc to reply to emails, basically, Outlook shows no confirmation that I replied to any emails from my Razr except in my sent folder, the emails sent from my Razr are there. It appears there is a connector problem
Is there a way to get the stock email app to play well with Exchange/Outlook or is there another app I should use?
A secondary problem is that when in Outlook, it also does not allow me to open all related messages to an email like I could when using my DInc to reply to emails, basically, Outlook shows no confirmation that I replied to any emails from my Razr except in my sent folder, the emails sent from my Razr are there. It appears there is a connector problem
Is there a way to get the stock email app to play well with Exchange/Outlook or is there another app I should use?
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
Outlook/Exchange issues are outside of the scope of this thread. I'd suggest that you ask your company's IT people or start a new thread.
I appreciate the effort and input of Razz, and others for this info.
- Looks like the Hotmail option is limited to only addresses and contacts.
- Doesn't sink "to-do list, memos, tasks" etc.
- There are a LOT of compromises in Hotmail accounts. Everymonth, i get a note saying that hotmail accounts have been broken and are NOW sending out junk email (not good).
That being said...i still appreciate the work that Razz put into this post.
I realize that Google owns Droid...and because of such...they are FIGHTING Microsoft for market share.
Therefore, finding a data-sync program will be difficult.
Too bad RIM doesn't get into the mix and create a program for Droid-Outlook Users.
- Looks like the Hotmail option is limited to only addresses and contacts.
- Doesn't sink "to-do list, memos, tasks" etc.
- There are a LOT of compromises in Hotmail accounts. Everymonth, i get a note saying that hotmail accounts have been broken and are NOW sending out junk email (not good).
That being said...i still appreciate the work that Razz put into this post.
I realize that Google owns Droid...and because of such...they are FIGHTING Microsoft for market share.
Therefore, finding a data-sync program will be difficult.
Too bad RIM doesn't get into the mix and create a program for Droid-Outlook Users.
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
There are lots of 3rd party solutions listed on Syncdroid.net. Gsyncit & CompanionLink are popular and seem good.
Sounds like your password is getting hacked. That's easily solved by picking a secure password (not just a word or word + number).
Thanks Razz...i will check that site.
HOTMAIL
Not my password...i've never had a Hotmail account....BUT i know SEVERAL ppl who have been hacked using hotmail.
~T
HOTMAIL
Not my password...i've never had a Hotmail account....BUT i know SEVERAL ppl who have been hacked using hotmail.
~T
RazzMaTazz
Android Expert
I see lots of friends getting their email accounts get hacked by spammer's password-guessing-robots, on Hotmail, Gmail, Yahoo Mail, AOL, et al.
Dear RazzMaTazz,
Thank you so much for this posting. I am a newbie to Android (just bought a Galaxy Tab, having been on Windows Mobile before that!!!). The beauty of your solution, as you say, is that it is simple, straightforward and comprehensive. And if set up properly, it works a treat!
However, I think you may have missed out something in your instructions - perhaps because it was too obvious. It concerns email synchronisation. In addition to moving your calendar and contacts to your new Hotmail-based folder in Outlook, you also have to move your email Inbox there - otherwise, email coming into your Outlook email client will not be replicated onto Hotmail, or from there onto your Android device. It will remain locally on your computer.
Second (and again apologies if this is too obvious to more experienced users), you can copy across to your Hotmail-based account not only your Inbox, but also any sub-folders you have created in Outlook. For me, this is crucial. I have a whole range of folders in which I file by subject/category incoming and outgoing emails. All these can be dragged across to your new Hotmail-based account - and will then appear on your Android device also. Brilliant! Just one warning: folders will not copy across if they contain any 'illegal' characters for Windows. These include: / ? ; " ' and many other you may use. Your best option is to rename all your folders to eliminate these characters before you copy it across.
One final point. If you want your emails to download immediately to your Android device even when you are away from your Outlook-based home computer, you need to set your Hotmail account to "send/receive from other accounts", using your home email account. This means that, even if you are not at your home computer downloading pending messages via Outlook these will download to your Hotmail account - and from there automatically to your Android device.
Apologies again if any of this is obvious to more techie-based people than I. My main point is: RazzMaTazz's solution rocks!!!
Thank you so much for this posting. I am a newbie to Android (just bought a Galaxy Tab, having been on Windows Mobile before that!!!). The beauty of your solution, as you say, is that it is simple, straightforward and comprehensive. And if set up properly, it works a treat!
However, I think you may have missed out something in your instructions - perhaps because it was too obvious. It concerns email synchronisation. In addition to moving your calendar and contacts to your new Hotmail-based folder in Outlook, you also have to move your email Inbox there - otherwise, email coming into your Outlook email client will not be replicated onto Hotmail, or from there onto your Android device. It will remain locally on your computer.
Second (and again apologies if this is too obvious to more experienced users), you can copy across to your Hotmail-based account not only your Inbox, but also any sub-folders you have created in Outlook. For me, this is crucial. I have a whole range of folders in which I file by subject/category incoming and outgoing emails. All these can be dragged across to your new Hotmail-based account - and will then appear on your Android device also. Brilliant! Just one warning: folders will not copy across if they contain any 'illegal' characters for Windows. These include: / ? ; " ' and many other you may use. Your best option is to rename all your folders to eliminate these characters before you copy it across.
One final point. If you want your emails to download immediately to your Android device even when you are away from your Outlook-based home computer, you need to set your Hotmail account to "send/receive from other accounts", using your home email account. This means that, even if you are not at your home computer downloading pending messages via Outlook these will download to your Hotmail account - and from there automatically to your Android device.
Apologies again if any of this is obvious to more techie-based people than I. My main point is: RazzMaTazz's solution rocks!!!