Why do we still debate things like this?

[A.Nonymous]

I read this article today on the local news site. A bill is going to be debated in committee about whether parents should be able to opt out of vaccinating their children. I wonder why this bill is even being debated. Vaccination saves lives and prevents disease. That is a fact. It's backed up by many, many, many studies. There are no medical groups with any credibility that support opting out of vaccines. In fact, just about every medical group in our state has come out opposed to this bill. All the studies back them up.

But the argument isn't based on studies or solid research, instead it's from the very small minority of people who's kids have bad reactions. Yes, there are a very small percentage of kids who have allergic reactions to vaccines and some even die. That's bad. No arguments there. We should work on cutting that number down. No arguments there either. But penicillin is dangerous to some people. No one argues that we should ban penicillin.

Am I the only one who thinks it's ridiculous that this is even up for debate? Shall we debate whether gravity really exists next?

 

[SUroot]

parents should be able to opt out of vaccinating their children.

But penicillin is dangerous to some people. No one argues that we should ban penicillin.

Those are not comparable arguments. As it stands, you choose whether to take penicillin. The equivelant argument is that they are force-feeding your child penicilin and your child dies as a result.

They are not talkign about banning vaccinations. They are giving the option to opt-out.

 

[A.Nonymous]

If I opt out of penicillin (and take another drug), I don't endanger myself or the health of the community. If you opt out of a vaccine and thus become a carrier of something like polio, that does present a threat to the community.

 

[dan330]

maybe an easy test before vaccnation is given... to remove the kids that are allergic.

 

[SUroot]

You're a father, two of your children died from vaccinations. Your third is about to be vaccinated. Are you honestly saying that you'd be quite happy to risk your third child's life because some android forum member believes polio may come back if you didnt?

 

[MSUgEEk]

If I opt out of penicillin (and take another drug), I don't endanger myself or the health of the community. If you opt out of a vaccine and thus become a carrier of something like polio, that does present a threat to the community.

Negative. If you choose not to get vaccinated and become a carrier of a disease, but the people around you are vaccinated, then you pose no risk to them. I personally think vaccinations are getting a bad rep for the wrong reasons. I'll be vaccinating my kids, but I don't know that you should be REQUIRED to vaccinate against everything.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Negative. If you choose not to get vaccinated and become a carrier of a disease, but the people around you are vaccinated, then you pose no risk to them. I personally think vaccinations are getting a bad rep for the wrong reasons. I'll be vaccinating my kids, but I don't know that you should be REQUIRED to vaccinate against everything.

Not necessarily. There's herd immunity involved. Vaccines aren't 100% effective on everyone. There are some who have no ill effects from the vaccine, but don't acquire the immunity either for whatever reason. Those people are still protected from measles, for example, because no one in the community has it or is carrying it. That person acquires some immunity because there are no or few vectors for them to be infected. They are unlikely to ever cross paths with an infected individual. However, if half the population isn't immunized, then their chances of crossing paths with a carrier are much higher.

 

[IOWA]

It's called freedom.

 

[melim]

maybe an easy test before vaccnation is given... to remove the kids that are allergic.

Allergic to what? Do you know how much crap is in biologics? The companies that make them don't even know a lot of the time (and when they do they don't care) if there's a contaminant. And it's not just about allergies.

I'm no parent and therefore have no dog in this fight, but I'm absolutely against forcing parents to vaccinate their kids. And like SUroot said, this discussion is flawed from the outset, as no one is looking to ban vaccines.

 

[novox77]

I do believe in choice and don't believe we need government regulation regarding vaccination.

I also believe that vaccination is the right choice, as the benefits vastly outweigh the drawbacks.

Further, there are a lot of uneducated people and conspiracy theorists who believe that vaccination was responsible for really bad things. These are simply people who don't understand that correlation does not imply causation.

You hear it with the flu shot all the time... "I got so damn sick after the flu shot. Therefore the flu shot gave me the flu." No one disputes that someone got sick right after the shot. But whether the shot CAUSED the illness is not proven simply because the person got sick. Statistically, this correlation is in the minority.

And like these forums, things don't get attention until there's a problem. The people who do get sick make the noise, and people assume they are the majority. They are not.

 

[dan330]

to the OP... here you go..


debating...

because we all have an opinion

 

[nyydynasty]

Not necessarily. There's herd immunity involved. Vaccines aren't 100% effective on everyone. There are some who have no ill effects from the vaccine, but don't acquire the immunity either for whatever reason. Those people are still protected from measles, for example, because no one in the community has it or is carrying it. That person acquires some immunity because there are no or few vectors for them to be infected. They are unlikely to ever cross paths with an infected individual. However, if half the population isn't immunized, then their chances of crossing paths with a carrier are much higher.

i'm not taking sides, here, but I do agree with this. For example (a poor example but still...) - I recently went to the doctor to get a checkup, one of which was to get a vaccine for chicken pox. I'm 31 years old and never had it in my life, so obviously the risk is high if I do get CP at my age. My doctor did not suggest that I get the vaccine because there's a risk of getting it from that vaccine since it contains a live virus. That being said, the risk of me coming in contact with someone else who has CP is remote so therefore, I do have some level of immunity.

He would have given it to me if I come in contact with kids on a daily basis, which I dont, so that was that.

 

[melim]

i'm not taking sides, here, but I do agree with this. For example (a poor example but still...) - I recently went to the doctor to get a checkup, one of which was to get a vaccine for chicken pox. I'm 31 years old and never had it in my life, so obviously the risk is high if I do get CP at my age. My doctor did not suggest that I get the vaccine because there's a risk of getting it from that vaccine since it contains a live virus. That being said, the risk of me coming in contact with someone else who has CP is remote so therefore, I do have some level of immunity.

He would have given it to me if I come in contact with kids on a daily basis, which I dont, so that was that.

Your risk of coming in contact with someone who has shingles (same virus) is not that remote, however, and will grow as you get older. You should ask your Dr. to do a titer. It's possible you had a subclinical infection and are immune to CP. I never had an overt case of CP, either, but have the level of immunity of someone who has, and I know this because I had a titer done when my Mom had shingles.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I do believe in choice and don't believe we need government regulation regarding vaccination.

I also believe that vaccination is the right choice, as the benefits vastly outweigh the drawbacks.

Further, there are a lot of uneducated people and conspiracy theorists who believe that vaccination was responsible for really bad things. These are simply people who don't understand that correlation does not imply causation.

You hear it with the flu shot all the time... "I got so damn sick after the flu shot. Therefore the flu shot gave me the flu." No one disputes that someone got sick right after the shot. But whether the shot CAUSED the illness is not proven simply because the person got sick. Statistically, this correlation is in the minority.

And like these forums, things don't get attention until there's a problem. The people who do get sick make the noise, and people assume they are the majority. They are not.

Yes, but every person that has ever been vaccinated or will be vaccinated is either dead or will die. Even those workers producing these dangerous compounds will eventually die or they have already died. Cause and effect, case closed. This is a simple and incontestable fact.

I say we ban all vaccinations. We seem to be raising stupid kids so we might as well make them sick.

Smiley!

We need to ban the color green. Remember, everyone who has ever seen the color green or will ever see the color green will die or has already died. Everyone who will work in or has worked in factories producing green is either dead or will die.

My dad once saw the color green and he is dead. My mother saw it once and she is dead. It could be genetics because my grandparents also died, as did theirs.

Ride along with a CSI and visit some murder scenes. The people are dead and there is probably something green in the room. Therefore, green causes bullet holes. Enter any room in the house without any trace of green, and you will not find any tool, implement or weapon capable of creating a bullet hole, so it must be the color green.

We must also bad Dihydrogen Monoxide. This stuff is found in drinking fountains in every school in America. It is found in all cancer tumors, heavy industry and in every polluted river. It cause many deaths every year and gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.

Most parents are not aware of the dangers lurking in every school in America, so lets use "science" to eliminate everything bad. I hear the milk kids drink in school also contain DHMO.

Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info

Also, we need to ban creamed corn and cauliflower.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Allergic to what? Do you know how much crap is in biologics? The companies that make them don't even know a lot of the time (and when they do they don't care) if there's a contaminant. And it's not just about allergies.

Care to prove it? You make it sound like manufacturers do not care what is in the stuff they release and it is all contaminated and they do not give a damn. I seriously doubt you.

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but this sounds like the rants served up by the anti-vaccination crowd.

 

[melim]

Care to prove it? You make it sound like manufacturers do not care what is in the stuff they release and it is all contaminated and they do not give a damn. I seriously doubt you.

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but this sounds like the rants served up by the anti-vaccination crowd.

No, I sound like someone who used to work in the regulatory affairs dept (that would be the dept that deals with the FDA) of a pharmaceutical company and saw things that would give any reasonable person pause, and that's putting it mildly.

I never said "all".
They really do not give a damn about safety in a lot of cases.
Go ahead and doubt me; don't give a crap.
I'm not anti-vax.

 

[novox77]

FDA regulation of safety standards on pharmaceutical companies is quite stringent. Inefficient, but stringent. Also first-hand experience here on the pharma-side.

If you want to worry about the quality of ingredients, worry about supplements which do not fall under FDA purview. That's where you find the really nasty stuff.

 

[A.Nonymous]

It's called freedom.

Freedom even when it endangers the health of everyone else in society?

Should we be allowed to just pile our trash on our front lawn and leave it there to decompose? No. Because doing so creates a public health hazard. Public health trumps freedom in this case.

 

[melim]

FDA regulation of safety standards on pharmaceutical companies is quite stringent. Inefficient, but stringent. Also first-hand experience here on the pharma-side.

I drank that Kool-aid for a while when I was working there, too. But given that a HUGE proportion of the FDA's funding comes directly from the industries they're supposed to be regulating, they basically have little to no power anymore. I saw the shift happen before my eyes given I was working there when the law changed. (And no I'm not going to do anyone's homework for them. Look it up.)

 

[Yeahha]

We debate because people tend to distrust science and are willing be believe circumstantial data because it is endorsed by someone or they want to place blame on someone rather than accept things just happen sometimes.

Discussion links between vaccinations and autism specifically, numerous studies have shown there are no connections between the two but Jenny McCarthy thinks there is a link and went public about it so plenty of people must agree. Also when someone's child starts to show signs of the disorder around the time they are vaccinated the parent(s) may feel they are victims and want to place blame on another party than accept there are things in life that just happen, yes bad things can happen to good people. I think their hearts are in the right place but endorsement of something with good intentions without looking at what has been proven may not be a good thing.

Why I think they should be required and both my kids are up to date on theirs can be explained easily by looking at the news last year Measles outbreak from unvaccinated - USATODAY.com

A child can get measles before turning 1 year old but can't get vaccinated for it until they are 1 year old. If someone's child is disabled or killed before turning 1 because someone else decided not to have their child vaccinated for measles due to fears of bad things happening because of the vaccination who are the victims? IMO the victims are the less than a year old child, his or her parents, and the unvaccinated child who's parents chose not to have him or her vaccinated.

The only reason things like measles, mumps, and polio aren't the epidemics they were less than 100 years ago is due to vaccines. They all still exist and there are outbreaks periodically but for the most part if the vaccinations are required they will not be an issue for those areas.

I am also not saying that all vaccinations should be mandatory. Things like the flu vaccine should be optional. From what I understand the the flu vaccine is just a guess of what types of the flu virus may be prevelant this year.

 

[Bob Maxey]

No, I sound like someone who used to work in the regulatory affairs dept (that would be the dept that deals with the FDA) of a pharmaceutical company and saw things that would give any reasonable person pause, and that's putting it mildly.

I never said "all".
They really do not give a damn about safety in a lot of cases.
Go ahead and doubt me; don't give a crap.
I'm not anti-vax.

I have no way of knowing who you worked for or what you did. Chances are, those in Admin or Regulatory Affairs would not really know what the serious issues are/were or be privy to some big secret. If the medicine was contaminated, it would be a very big deal.

 

[novox77]

If the medicine was contaminated, it would be a
very big deal.

Absolutely. Johnson & Johnson. Huge Pharma. If these companies could really buy the FDA, this would never have happened to them:

Johnson & Johnson (NYSE: JNJ) has experienced a series of product recalls and problems that began with Motrin and Tylenol for children. According to AP, these recalls were among

 

[A.Nonymous]

We debate because people tend to distrust science and are willing be believe circumstantial data because it is endorsed by someone or they want to place blame on someone rather than accept things just happen sometimes.

Discussion links between vaccinations and autism specifically, numerous studies have shown there are no connections between the two but Jenny McCarthy thinks there is a link and went public about it so plenty of people must agree. Also when someone's child starts to show signs of the disorder around the time they are vaccinated the parent(s) may feel they are victims and want to place blame on another party than accept there are things in life that just happen, yes bad things can happen to good people. I think their hearts are in the right place but endorsement of something with good intentions without looking at what has been proven may not be a good thing.

Why I think they should be required and both my kids are up to date on theirs can be explained easily by looking at the news last year Measles outbreak from unvaccinated - USATODAY.com

A child can get measles before turning 1 year old but can't get vaccinated for it until they are 1 year old. If someone's child is disabled or killed before turning 1 because someone else decided not to have their child vaccinated for measles due to fears of bad things happening because of the vaccination who are the victims? IMO the victims are the less than a year old child, his or her parents, and the unvaccinated child who's parents chose not to have him or her vaccinated.

The only reason things like measles, mumps, and polio aren't the epidemics they were less than 100 years ago is due to vaccines. They all still exist and there are outbreaks periodically but for the most part if the vaccinations are required they will not be an issue for those areas.

I am also not saying that all vaccinations should be mandatory. Things like the flu vaccine should be optional. From what I understand the the flu vaccine is just a guess of what types of the flu virus may be prevelant this year.

I agree with you that some vaccines should be voluntary. I have no problems with that. There are other vaccines (like the one's commonly given to children) that should be mandatory unless there is a demonstrable threat to the person's health from taking the vaccine.

 

[Bob Maxey]

We debate because people tend to distrust science and are willing be believe circumstantial data because it is endorsed by someone or they want to place blame on someone rather than accept things just happen sometimes.

Very true. Most people do not visit the library and start cracking books; they ask Mr. Google and we all knows this: Men landed on the moon; of this there is proof. Men did not land on the moon; the images were faked, of this there is proof. In other words, any opinion will find support and plenty of detractors arguing the other side. This makes using the Internet to research things very difficult.

McCarthy is not an expert but she has the public stage and people believe her when they should not.

 

[Bob Maxey]

FDA regulation of safety standards on pharmaceutical companies is quite stringent. Inefficient, but stringent. Also first-hand experience here on the pharma-side.

If you want to worry about the quality of ingredients, worry about supplements which do not fall under FDA purview. That's where you find the really nasty stuff.

Not to mention, the illegally imported drugs and the fakes/counterfeits.