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WikiLeaks: the Problem Is America's Imperial Foreign Policy...
- Thread starter X10iUser
- Start date
Here's something from a source that is a bit more reliable....
WikiLeaks releases list of sites 'vital to US national security' - World Politics, World - The Independent
Or this one
WikiLeaks lists sites key to U.S. security - CNN
Anyone who claims that the Wikileaks release hasn't done serious damage to the US's national security is either willfully ignorant of the damage that's been done, or living in a fairy tale.
Or they're innocently ignorant or have absorbed incorrect information, or have absorbed information incorrectly - that happens to decent people all of the time.
Your right to express your opinion stops where its invective does harm to those in the group I just listed. If someone doesn't get your points on this critical issue this time, accusations of that nature will not be necessary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This next part is not directed at byteware personally, it's for all comers - many folks just seem to develop a special magic in posting hereabouts.
This thread is not going to meander into ad hominems or catcalling like the last one did.
Free vacations are available to the first posters who think the mods have nothing better to do than have another thread to mother that crosses the lines - links available in my sig.
copestag
Android Expert
or they arent blinded by the stupidty of blindly believing the govt..... all you have to do is prove a wikileak has cause ANY harm of ANY sort..... and your point could at start to be heard......... but since its not possible to provide ANY proof of ANY harm by ANY wikileak of ANY sort.... then you dont have ANY reason to be whining
The Taliban kill those who help the US.
Wikileaks posted the names of those who helped the US.
The Taliban promised to read Wikileaks, and kill those named there.
At least some of those named there have been killed by the Taliban.
They didn't leave a note stating why they killed them, but it seems quite a bit unreasonable to argue that Wikileaks doesn't have blood on their hands.
Aside from that... posting a list of sites that are vital to our national security? Seriously? It's a must hit list for terrorists.
LoyalServant
Android Expert
Did we not learn anything from history.. when the UK were the imperialists?
They lost.
Just because you can overthrow governments or control them like puppets does not mean you should.
We do all this 'stuff' in the name of terrorism yet the chance of being killed my a terrorist is far less than being in a plane crash.
More people have died fighting these terrorists than they have killed.
By the logic of some people all the mechanics and airlines should be controlled by the government and every mechanic should have a guard watching him to make sure he does not forget a bolt.. because the plane might crash and kill people.
There is no substitute for an aware public.
The chances of a terrorist getting on a plane and crashing it into a building are VERY remote, especially now with public awareness.
Just look at the kid with the cellphone in recent news.
This older guy was concerned with the phone screwing around with the plane and he swatted him.
I dare a terrorist to get on a plane and start yelling that 'Allah! i'm gunna get 52 virgins' crap.
They will need to tear gas the plane just to get the passengers off of the terrorist.
The US need not be a police state that it has become, let alone dictating to other countries what they can and cannot do.
Nobody likes a bully.... and they lose in the end.
They lost.
Just because you can overthrow governments or control them like puppets does not mean you should.
We do all this 'stuff' in the name of terrorism yet the chance of being killed my a terrorist is far less than being in a plane crash.
More people have died fighting these terrorists than they have killed.
By the logic of some people all the mechanics and airlines should be controlled by the government and every mechanic should have a guard watching him to make sure he does not forget a bolt.. because the plane might crash and kill people.
There is no substitute for an aware public.
The chances of a terrorist getting on a plane and crashing it into a building are VERY remote, especially now with public awareness.
Just look at the kid with the cellphone in recent news.
This older guy was concerned with the phone screwing around with the plane and he swatted him.
I dare a terrorist to get on a plane and start yelling that 'Allah! i'm gunna get 52 virgins' crap.
They will need to tear gas the plane just to get the passengers off of the terrorist.
The US need not be a police state that it has become, let alone dictating to other countries what they can and cannot do.
Nobody likes a bully.... and they lose in the end.
can you provide a link to that? sounds like an interesting read.
i agree to an extent, however before america pro-actively started policing we were being dragged into global conflicts. to give my own opinion clearly, if my neighbors are constantly bickering and fighting in their own houses it's none of my business; when they decide to bring the fighting into my yard, it's time for me to kick some ass of my own, then i get to decided when and where they interact from that point on.
i would agree that the US has taken this too far. i would also add to my previous scenario that if my neighbors kid shows up at my house beaten and bloody and asking me to protect him from his abusive father, daddy is going to get an ass whooping. i don't care who you are, if you turn a blind eye to people who are being genuinely oppressed and are calling out for help, you deserve to take their place.
Regarding my mod message
What you're not seeing is the large number of flaming posts that we had to take down on this subject in the preceding Wikileaks thread. We got to some of those a little late, but we were able to get to a number of them before any of you saw them, I'm sure of that.
If I single out an example post in public of something that others ought not try to weasel in on, that's just how I do things - straightforward as possible.
We had a thread on this same subject that attracted too many flames, we locked it, the subject is open again. Rather than whine and lock this one, I'm just making it crystal clear: I'm simply past handing out warnings on this topic, keep this thread square so everyone can discuss this important issue fairly or get a vacation from AF - there's not going to be a third way because we simply have too many threads to manage where people need phone help than to give this one too much time.
All questions regarding mod postings are fine - in PM only.
Not because I'm perfect or need to save face if and when I make a mistake - but because it's off-topic, as this post itself is because I couldn't get here almost an hour ago, and I regret that.
What you're not seeing is the large number of flaming posts that we had to take down on this subject in the preceding Wikileaks thread. We got to some of those a little late, but we were able to get to a number of them before any of you saw them, I'm sure of that.
If I single out an example post in public of something that others ought not try to weasel in on, that's just how I do things - straightforward as possible.
We had a thread on this same subject that attracted too many flames, we locked it, the subject is open again. Rather than whine and lock this one, I'm just making it crystal clear: I'm simply past handing out warnings on this topic, keep this thread square so everyone can discuss this important issue fairly or get a vacation from AF - there's not going to be a third way because we simply have too many threads to manage where people need phone help than to give this one too much time.
All questions regarding mod postings are fine - in PM only.
Not because I'm perfect or need to save face if and when I make a mistake - but because it's off-topic, as this post itself is because I couldn't get here almost an hour ago, and I regret that.
M
Member243850
Guest
No need to worry guys, open leaks is about to be born! 
Former WikiLeaks Staff Open New Whistle-Blower Leak Service `OpenLeaks`
OpenLeaks
http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2010/12/wikileaks-child-open-leaks-is-born.html
Former WikiLeaks Staff Open New Whistle-Blower Leak Service `OpenLeaks`
OpenLeaks
http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2010/12/wikileaks-child-open-leaks-is-born.html
hakr100
Android Expert
Depends on how you define "imperialistic." By the 19th Century British definition, probably not, but if you extend that classical definition to include the arrogance of wanting to extend one's form of government to other countries by means of warfare, I'd say the G.W. Bush administration was imperialistic.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Yeah thats pretty much it
But the only time the US could have been truly deemed imperialistic was for a while after the Spanish American War of the late 1890's
They ruled the countries well (Most Philipinos think of US rule fondly), and improved health and education, but screwed them over trade wise (look at what their short rule of Cuba did)
Unfair trade is mantained through America's new imperialism as you can see by plenty of interventions, often supporting dictators over democratic governments
South & Central America is the best example
Other countries would do this to most likely, but dont have the resources (eg, the UKs last non-minor intervention was in Iraq in the 50's)
Hopefully multinational organisations like the UN and EU can end this, but unfortunately the US often ignores the UN, but lets hope the next Republican president does not continue Dubya's trend
wiretap
Android Enthusiast
Wikileaks is a government psyop using Julian Assange as their patsy to impose tyrannical cybersecurity measures over the internet. It's pretty damn obvious. It started out legit, now they're just feeding information to build up a cybersecurity case for shackling the free internet. All the contracts are already lined for the web token gateways as outlined in the National Broadband Plan. 2011 will be the year things begin to fall in place.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
*nods head while slowly backing away*
why was the tinfoil hat similey request ignored?
why was the tinfoil hat similey request ignored?
Final warning:
The topic is crystal-clear, so please confine your contributions to addressing it. Any further attempts to turn the thread into a Left vs Right slanging match will result in it being closed and infractions issued for ignoring staff warnings.
Is America Imperialistic? No.
Do we have a police the world attitude? Yes.
Do we take things too far? Yes.
Do we need to scale back our involvement in the world? Some.
Can we get the world to stop complaining about it? Yes.
We should take an isolationist attitude, and let Europe do what we've been doing. Let their militaries step up, or let them beg us to in front of the entire world. Either way, that's fine by me.
Do we have a police the world attitude? Yes.
Do we take things too far? Yes.
Do we need to scale back our involvement in the world? Some.
Can we get the world to stop complaining about it? Yes.
We should take an isolationist attitude, and let Europe do what we've been doing. Let their militaries step up, or let them beg us to in front of the entire world. Either way, that's fine by me.
Crude
Android Expert
I'm good with that.
Snedd
Well-Known Member
I can't imagine there would be that many people in Europe begging for intervention in Iraq or Afghanistan. If I remember correctly it was the Bush government that was desperate to get Tony Blair's backing for an invasion of Iraq.
But on the question of whether America is imperialistic, I think most governments are, or want to be, depending on their power to do so. Its just that America is the country at the moment with most diplomatic, economic and military clout to get its own way. In a few years time we could be asking the same question about China.
For me, the most disturbing aspect of the whole wikileaks cablegate thing has been the calls to have Assange assassinated or listed as a terrorist. There was even one guy calling for people to target Assange's son in order to flush his father out of hiding! If you value freedom of speech you have to accept that sometimes people will use that freedom against you. People who react against that by calling for violence or revenge are actually handing victory to the terrorists and extremists of this world by eroding the key values on which western democracies are built.
Desperate for Iraq or Afghanistan? Probably not. Sudan? Probably. The next major Natural Disaster like Haiti? Absolutely. The next Genocide? Absolutely.
North Korea? Absolutely.
Iran's nuclear program? Absolutely.
I think you are confusing being Imperialistic with shoving our nose in everybody's business. They aren't the same thing. We have the power to influence and push people around. That's not imperialism.
Calls for the death penalty, are not calls for assassination.
And I would be ok with him being listed as a terrorist. If he hadn't posted information that was dangerous to people's lives, then I would not, but information is a weapon as much as anything else is.
The Freedom of Speech isn't infinite. Our Freedom of Speech doesn't protect releasing the locations of people in the witness protection program. It doesn't protect releasing information that puts people's lives in danger.
I'm not calling for violence or revenge, I'm calling for labeling Wikileaks as a terrorist organization and taking the appropriate action against it to shut it down.
Important Caveat to my stance on Wikileaks... please make sure you read it before you respond:
Had Wikileaks been more judicious in the information that it released, then I would have been absolutely fine what they were attempting to do.
If they had removed information from the Afghanistan field reports that could have identified informants/collaborators or tactics, then I would have been fine with that release.
However, they did not. They released information that put military personnel and Afghan civilians in harms way. That is not acceptable. That is not what the Freedom of Speech is protecting.
If they had removed information detrimental to National Security from the Diplomatic Cables that they released, then I would have no problem with that.
However they did not. They released information that put the US, if not the entire world in harms way. They released information about locations where Terrorists could bring down Global Communications. That's not what the Freedom of Speech is protecting.
Their goals were noble, but they believe themselves untouchable and went too far. Now they, unfortunately, have to be stopped.
That is sad. The Cover up that they revealed in Afghanistan was a good thing that they did. They could have truly been an organization that shed light on the world's evils, but instead they are an organization that puts people's lives in danger.
Because of that, they are an organization that needs to be stopped. It does make me wistful for what could have been and what should have been.
Snedd
Well-Known Member
Well I didn't say that you or anyone else in this thread was calling for violence or revenge. I was making a point that some people have and it disturbs me. E.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d36xEvVnF2I
I also understand the difference between the death penalty and assassination, and there have been calls for his assassination. About one minute into the above link is just one example.
Freedom of speech isn't infinite, absolutely true, but recourse should be through the law, not through special ops assassination squads or unmanned drones as this guy suggests:
Canadian PM's aide urges Assange assassination | THINQ.co.uk
I apologize, I thought you were referring to Huckabee (I think it was) stating that he thinks the death penalty would be too good for him.
There are nutjobs. Yes, nutjobs are going to be nutjobs, but I don't think anyone prominent in this country is calling for his assassination, at least publicly.