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Women's Rights in the Middle East
- Thread starter cipher6
- Start date
Just like Democracy in this country gave women the right to vote? Or anyone other than white men for that matter?
Lets take a different track...
Why do you think Egyptian and Middle Eastern culture in general has similar cultural attitudes as the US and Western Democracies, that would then lead to similar secular democracies?
Do you think culture shapes government or does government shape culture? Is government a reflection of the culture it governs or is the culture a reflection of the government?
What gives you hope Egypt will create a Western style secular democracy?
OK.
I don't think it's similarities that will lead to similar secular democracies. They are both starting with secular democracies. They are both starting with imperfect secular democracies. The thing about democracies is... they tend to correct themselves.
The US didn't give women the right to vote easily, women had to work for it... as will be the case in Egypt.
I imagine them taking a page from the Women's suffrage movement here, and holding peaceful protests.
However, I don't imagine it working as well as it did for us... it was, after all, 140 years between the creation of the US, and allowing women's suffrage (the number isn't exact, but should be relatively close... plus or minus 10 years).
That's not something that's going to happen immediately, but I think they'll try anyway...
They both shape each other. I mean, government shapes culture, and culture shapes government. It isn't a one way relationship.
They are reaching for a secular democracy. Do I believe it will mirror ours right off the bat? No I don't. Do I think it will by the end of the century? Well, I think they will make many many improvements between here and there and be a lot closer.
I don't think they will create a democracy like what we currently have. I think they will create one like we had when we started out.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Every county has the potential to be a democracy
Certainly if the army takes a Turkish style guardian of secular democracy role, it can work
What is your point Cipher? would you prefer them under a dictator? or single party rule?
I would prefer them to be a peaceful secular democracy, but I don't think they care about my opinion.
My point is, I think governments grow out of culture. Governments tend to be a reflection of the culture, even repressive dictators. I don't think the Middle East or Egypt have the type of culture that can foster true democracy. But I could be wrong. We're trying to install democracy in Iraq like a car stereo. Its not going well, but at least it hasn't totally disintegrated. But, like I said, I could be wrong.
I'd like to hear some arguments to why people think the Middle East can foster secular democracies.
My point is, I think governments grow out of culture. Governments tend to be a reflection of the culture, even repressive dictators. I don't think the Middle East or Egypt have the type of culture that can foster true democracy. But I could be wrong. We're trying to install democracy in Iraq like a car stereo. Its not going well, but at least it hasn't totally disintegrated. But, like I said, I could be wrong.
I'd like to hear some arguments to why people think the Middle East can foster secular democracies.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Spain was a repressive dictatorship less than 40 years ago, same for Portugal
Greece was too (clearly less successful
)
Greece was too (clearly less successful
)But I don't think comparing it to other countries, especially western countries is a good measure.
If, culture influences government, whats specific in Egyptian culture that would foster democracy?
For example, where the protests more about freedom and equality, or people pissed off at the security establishment, food prices, and Mubarak in general?
If, culture influences government, whats specific in Egyptian culture that would foster democracy?
For example, where the protests more about freedom and equality, or people pissed off at the security establishment, food prices, and Mubarak in general?
Why do you think they CAN't foster a democracy? Even a flawed one?
Uhh... I've been outlining that since the start of the thread. I don't think Egyptian culture is conducive to secular democracy. I don't think a culture that treats it's women that way is ready to embrace equality. I think there is too much tribalism and rejection of modern conventions. I don't think the hundreds of thousands in the square were there because of a deep desire for freedoms, democracy and equality. I think it was more a matter of being hungry, fed up with corrupt cops, the security establishment and Mubarak in general.
Everyone is telling me they disagree with this assessment. Ok, I might be wrong... tell me why. Not simply "your wrong", or "Egypt can become a democracy." What do you see specifically that makes you think that?
Never mind the way our culture treated slaves.
Such as?
I don't think those at Boston Harbor were there because of equality either. They were there because they were sick and tired of being taxed to death, being forced to house soldiers in their homes, and the King in general.
I've told you before, no country started off with a democracy as "civilized" as you think they should be.
Every democracy started as something more ragtag and then became something more equitable.
It just appears to be the way government works. As the Democracy get's established, eventually women will have more rights. Until then, they will be more like how our democracy started.
Ok, then are you saying Democracies just happen? And it will just happen in Egypt, and when it does, they will become more civilized and embrace equality?
What then creates a Democracy? Where does it come from? If its not an outgrowth of the culture, what is its source?
Iraq is having it imposed by force... time will tell if that holds. But, if not imposed by an outside force through violence, what is the source of democracy?
Their treatment of women, and they way it is upheld by local judges, even when it violates the written laws.
I believe that was more about representation that actual tax rates. "No taxation without representation"... a clear expression of an idea to be free and self governed. Another cultural element to the formation of our democracy. Does that exist in Egypt? I don't know.
Honestly I can't buy this. Where does democracy come from then? it just springs up out of nothing?
What then creates a Democracy? Where does it come from? If its not an outgrowth of the culture, what is its source?
Iraq is having it imposed by force... time will tell if that holds. But, if not imposed by an outside force through violence, what is the source of democracy?
Their treatment of women, and they way it is upheld by local judges, even when it violates the written laws.
I believe that was more about representation that actual tax rates. "No taxation without representation"... a clear expression of an idea to be free and self governed. Another cultural element to the formation of our democracy. Does that exist in Egypt? I don't know.
Honestly I can't buy this. Where does democracy come from then? it just springs up out of nothing?
No, I'm saying that even something that starts off as an imperfect Democracy, where slavery is rampant and women are property... can become a true "everyone is equal" Democracy.
Democracy is a form of government. People create a democracy when they choose to (which Egypt is doing). It becomes an equal democracy over time (as ours did). It isn't something that happens overnight.
Actually, we've given them the opportunity, making it a working democracy is all on them.
Does this differ from out treatment of slaves when our democracy was founded? Our laws didn't even make that illegal.
I disagree. I think that was an attempt to prevent taxes on them, but that's something we won't be able to answer for sure.
Honestly I can't buy this. Where does democracy come from then? it just springs up out of nothing?[/QUOTE]
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
most were there because their illegal tea suddenly became more expensive than East India Company tea
byteware said:
But why does it start in the first place? If it isn't something inherent in the culture that starts democracy, even an imperfect one, what is it?
I agree, perfect equality isn't instant, it takes time to build the institutions to protect freedoms and equality, but where does the impetus for that democracy come from in the start?
Thats yet to be seen, currently their under a military dictatorship until a new government can be built.
This brings another question, does representative democracy always equal equality? If the majority of the population votes to strip women of their rights, and impose religious laws, technically thats democracy, but not secular or equality.
As you point out, we had democracy for a long time without equality. does it always follow democracy will bring equality, freedoms and peace? Maybe thats more our disagreement. I admit a democracy can form or be imposed on the most uncivilized of people, but I think there has to be some cultural source for equality.
ElasticNinja
Android Expert
Greece was the first democracy
Guess what? Women had no voice there
In Eygpt, they will
Guess what? Women had no voice there
In Eygpt, they will
Technically Athens was the first democracy, and right, women had no rights. Athens also fought one of the bloodiest wars in ancient history over to preserve their expansionary empire... and lost.
I think we're confusing ourselves by equating democracy with freedoms, secular laws and equality.
So, fairness wasn't inherent in our culture when we were created as a democracy? I mean, it wasn't for another 140 years that women achieved the right to vote.
Institutions to protect freedom and equality? Dude, it took 140 years before women had the right to vote that needed protecting.
True, and even after the new government is established, the military will still have tremendous power.
Nope, it absolutely doesn't.
There wasn't a cultural source of equality when the US was founded. No one ever considered the idea that women could vote, or should vote, or should be anything other than property.
Men didn't just wake up one day in the US and say to the women... "We should be equal". If it weren't for the women standing up for the rights they SHOULD have, they still wouldn't have them today.
I don't agree that no one ever considered it. And if there wasn't a cultural source, where did it come from?
Heres the deal, women stood up and said we "should" have these rights... where did that idea come from? Some agreed some didn't. But where did the idea they SHOULD have the rights come from? In a culture that says a women's place is raising children, were did the idea they SHOULD have rights equal originate from?
Plus, when they said, we should have these rights, they pointed to the constitution as evidence, how did that idea get into the constitution in the first place?
I agree, but why did we spend 140 years slowly building a more free, more equality society in the first place? Why didn't women accept their place? Where did they get the notion they should have the right to vote? Why didn't people just accept what Alexander Stephens said, that the "the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition?"
It wasn't just women and African Americans fighting for equality, plenty of white men were fighting for their equality too. Why didn't society just accept these "shoulds"?
Why did they ultimately win? Women didn't impose their idea of a right to vote through force, but moral augments and reasoning... why did anyone accept what they said as correct?
Where did the French Revolution come from? People with a King decided one day that they didn't like it anymore?
People get fed up with their status, and decide that they deserve better. That idea spreads until it becomes unstoppable.
Where did the women in Egypt get the idea that THEY SHOULD have equal rights originate from?
I have to completely disagree with you here. If that were the case, then there would be no need for the nineteenth amendment.
You shoot yourself in the foot with your own argument. Egyptian women have the same notion... If it's not a cultural norm for equality, where did they get that notion?
Yep, and the process was a lot like what we've seen in Egypt with the recent women's march.
It seems you think these ideas spring up out of nothing. France and Europe had a long history of pushing towards constitutions, greater freedoms etc... Everyone didn't just wake up one day and suddenly think "Hay, what if we set up a constitution that outlined the governments powers."
Western values of freedom and equality.
I'm not talking legality, I'm talking moral arguments.
Ok, so show me some evidence rights for women has traction in Egypt. A handful of people claiming "crazy" ideas doesn't reorder society.
I'm sure we can find some people claiming we SHOULD reorder society in the image of ancient Sparta. Where children are taken from the home early on, and raised in a communal setting. Deformed children should be left to die because they weaken the state. Require men to marry at 30, and dress women up in mens clothing for the wedding.
Put a group of 50 on a street corner claiming THIS is the truth that society SHOULD live by. Do you think it will go anywhere? Do you think we will then have a 140 years of reordering and building institutions in society that get us more to this "Should?"
Womens rights made progress, because when the moral argument was presented... "this country is based on equality, and having a say in how your governed." It made sense to many. It made sense because there was already something in the culture predisposed to that idea. An moral argument that we should kill deformed babies because they weaken the state will go nowhere, because we're not culturally predisposed to that moral argument, it goes against our cultural understanding of morality and responsibility. But for the Spartans, our way of life would make no sense.
THATS what I'm getting at... Is Egypt the type of culture that when presented with that argument, will it make sense to them? Or will it seem like something so far out of left field, so against their cultural and moral understanding of the world that it will not gain much traction?
Remember, Middle Eastern society doesn't deny women an equal role to men out of some hatred of women, its a moral understanding. They think society SHOULD protect women, by covering them up, to protect them from lust. They should be protected so they can do the really important work of raising the children who are the future of society.
And this gets me...
Are you saying all cultures essentially want equality for everyone? Or that equality and peace is some natural state of man and his culture?
That I disagree with 100% Read some history, peace and equality is not the norm in human civilization.
Will Durant once pointed out
Another thing...
I don't think you can show Women's rights will expand in Egypt by pointing to the US. That argument doesn't go too far. Its a point, yes... we pulled it off, so its not impossible they can do it to. Ok, I accept that.
But every time I ask for specifics about Egyptian society that points to greater equality for women, you give me something about America.
That argument only holds if you believe all cultures are equal and the same.
I don't think you can show Women's rights will expand in Egypt by pointing to the US. That argument doesn't go too far. Its a point, yes... we pulled it off, so its not impossible they can do it to. Ok, I accept that.
But every time I ask for specifics about Egyptian society that points to greater equality for women, you give me something about America.
That argument only holds if you believe all cultures are equal and the same.
I think I have concluded where our impassable difference is...
You believe that they are fundamentally different than we are. I do not.
Neither of us started with an equal society.
I believe it is human nature to strive for your basic human rights.
I believe that every culture can, and eventually will, move towards giving those basic human rights.
Even China has more human rights now than in the past.
Officials are held accountable for the damage that they do to the Citizens of China. This is not true in EVERY case, but it is becoming more and more common.
Any move towards equality and freedom is a good one, and will eventually cause further moves towards equality and freedom.
They are not fundamentally different than we are. There is no difference between us and them.
You believe that they are fundamentally different than we are. I do not.
Neither of us started with an equal society.
I believe it is human nature to strive for your basic human rights.
I believe that every culture can, and eventually will, move towards giving those basic human rights.
Even China has more human rights now than in the past.
Officials are held accountable for the damage that they do to the Citizens of China. This is not true in EVERY case, but it is becoming more and more common.
Any move towards equality and freedom is a good one, and will eventually cause further moves towards equality and freedom.
They are not fundamentally different than we are. There is no difference between us and them.
You correct, I don't think all cultures are the same, value the same things, and want the same things out of life.
I will admit a global move towards western values of equality, but I think thats more of a function of western dominance, and the fact that the west has shaped the construction of most international institutions.
kinda a side point, I think these spread of modern (western) values, is a major cause of radical Islamic violence.
Islam is a tradition system, the spread of modern values, destroys their traditions, and their identity with it. To say women have an equal standing with men, destroys the entire traditional societal structure laid out by Allah. I think their violence, and willingness to die, is a result of their loss of culture and traditions. If their whole way of life is about to be destroyed by the march of modern values, might as well die fighting to save it, they have nothing else to loose.
And this isn't my personal theory, its pretty much what the Bin Ladins of the world are saying.
I will admit a global move towards western values of equality, but I think thats more of a function of western dominance, and the fact that the west has shaped the construction of most international institutions.
kinda a side point, I think these spread of modern (western) values, is a major cause of radical Islamic violence.
Islam is a tradition system, the spread of modern values, destroys their traditions, and their identity with it. To say women have an equal standing with men, destroys the entire traditional societal structure laid out by Allah. I think their violence, and willingness to die, is a result of their loss of culture and traditions. If their whole way of life is about to be destroyed by the march of modern values, might as well die fighting to save it, they have nothing else to loose.
And this isn't my personal theory, its pretty much what the Bin Ladins of the world are saying.
all cultures aren't the same, all people are the same. We don't all believe the same things at the same time, but we have the same natural drives.
I don't think you can honestly call that a Western Culture of equality, or that Equality is a western value.
Studies show that it's the feeling of hopelessness that causes it.
The same is true of Christianity.
The same is true of Christianity.
I think it is the very concept that they HAVE nothing to lose that creates their violence.
Why the leaders (who aren't willing to die for their cause) are fighting is not the same as the reasons the grunts (who ARE willing to die for their cause) are fighting.