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Andriod UI - what are they thinking?

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Rarely do you actually have to close or kill an app. Android manages this very well. However, in the rare event you think you need to, download an app killer that stays in the notification bar. Then it is a slide and two clicks or maybe even one to kill the app you want to kill. I have had to do this before but it is very rare. I usually don't "kill" apps and I get 2 days charge easily from my phone.

You have obviously noticed that apps don't have a close button. Reading up on Android development you start to understand why. It's really because you shouldn't need one. Poorly designed apps might need one, but that isn't Google's fault. They lay the groud rules out pretty clearly on this too. That's why a lot of people have come out so strongly to defend Android.
 
IOWA said:
You seem to be focused on wanting to kill apps.
Android apps don't need to be closed.

But Android, and other OPERATING SYSTEMS should not, and can not be designed with this kind of simplicity in mind. There's more than 2 or 3 functions that can be had, such as a website.
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Dude, I'm not going to argue with you. If you can open an app, you should be able to close it. It is as simple as that. You claim Android is flexible and then you tell me I shouldn't be able to close apps. If you don't see a contradiction here it's fine by me. If people didn't need to close apps there wouldn't be 50 app killing apps out there, right?

Yes, an OS is not a website. So it's OK if I need to click 5 or 10 times on the back button to get back to an apps home. You are right, now I get it. Clicking 5 or 10 times on the back button is something I should be happy doing because it's good exercise and I can burn calories doing it. Cool.
 
UIexpert said:
Yes, I know. I'm saying that it would be a good place to include additional functions for when you are using an app to give some uniformity across apps (close, uninstall, home). Consistency is key... right now when I'm using an app I feel disoriented because they all look and behave so differently.
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I'm all for standardization - every OS benefits from that.

You can't convince me that there should be no (easily) accessible "close" or "kill" button for apps. I'm sure all apps misbehave at one point or another...
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We'll agree to disagree, and here's why.

One tenet of application GUI programming is to layer functions so that their controls are presented in accordance of frequency of use.

This maintains a clean interface.

App killing is one of least - if not THE least - required actions in Android. Therefore, cluttering the initial or near initial interface with a least-used function is canonically incorrect.

Unlike you, I don't design GUIs - but my staff programmers who specialize in this, who maintain yearly training in their field on this - assure me this is so.

I believe you meant it and that it was not hyperbole when you said that _all_ apps will misbehave and need killing at some point.

This reflects your experience with other operating systems.

It's simply untrue here.

I can assure you for a certain fact that in a few months, you'll look back at your posts here and be astounded to be reminded of how you thought Android should behave - or is behaving - in regard to your ideas about app killing vs. what your experience is about to tell you.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Others have provided links about the evils of external app killers. But that's a day one discussion for your needs. You'll just have to come back to it after you've had some time behind the wheel.

Because this is all new to you, let's try to get you on the same page as others, here's where we need to get you onto Android terms:


  • Do you know what Linux is, and have you ever used any *nix system?
  • Did you know that Android is a complete Linux, with a real-time executive that manages your processes so that you don't have to?
  • Did you know that unlike other desktop systems, ALL apps built for Android are built with the exact same programming language and same framework so that the automated executive cannot be end-run?
  • Do you understand that if you leave an app, it enters sleep and if it uses no services for a while, it's automatically killed?
  • Do you know that apps cooperate with the executive so that you can leave them and still get services - like phone calls, text messages - and your favorite music player? And that Android can tell which these are?

App-killing is - as you've found - a major hot button around here.

It's because you've crossed a boundary layer you're not seeing from the GUI to the under-the-hood part - and it has people up in arms.

Every new user worries about app killing. I was no different. But you need to open your mind to those with experience on this issue, they're trying to convey an important point: you're trying to introduce a UI element that will break part of the underlying operating system - and isn't needed.

Android is really that special.

I hope to use it on the desktop some day - it's that good.

Hope this helps.
 
UIexpert said:
Dude, I'm not going to argue with you. If you can open an app, you should be able to close it. It is as simple as that. You claim Android is flexible and then you tell me I shouldn't be able to close apps. If you don't see a contradiction here it's fine by me.

Yes, an OS is not a website. So it's OK if I need to click 5 or 10 times on the back button to get back to an apps home. You are right, now I get it. Clicking 5 or 10 times on the back button is something I should be happy doing because it's good exercise and I can burn calories doing it. Cool.
Click to expand...

Android doesn't have an app close function.

It has a "force close", which yep you guessed it, forces a crashed or bad app closed, which shouldn't happen often or at all. Also, closing apps all the time actually drains your battery and taxes the cpu more than just "leaving them open" (which your technically not leaving them open at all in the first place, so there is nothing to close.) It also sometimes screws with the Dalvik-VM.

And please, name the application your referring to that you need to press back 5 times to get to the respective apps launch screen.

Furthermore, your complaining about the Android UI when it is the specific APP UI your having issues with. Would you blame Windows for Adobe making a bad UI for photoshop?
 
UIexpert said:
Dude, I'm not going to argue with you. If you can open an app, you should be able to close it. It is as simple as that. You claim Android is flexible and then you tell me I shouldn't be able to close apps. If you don't see a contradiction here it's fine by me.

Yes, an OS is not a website. So it's OK if I need to click 5 or 10 times on the back button to get back to an apps home. You are right, now I get it. Clicking 5 or 10 times on the back button is something I should be happy doing because it's good exercise and I can burn calories doing it. Cool.
Click to expand...

I think they're not saying you shouldn't be able to, but that you shouldn't HAVE to close apps. Now if you want to close apps easily then there are options for it like the person before you said. There are also other options if you REALLY want to. For example, Task Killer comes with a widget that you can place on your home screen and it's a one touch kill for apps. You can click the home button from an app then click that Task Killer widget (takes 2 steps usually). But what people are saying is that you DON'T have to do this. I understand what you are saying that if you open an app you should have the option to close it. I thought the same way, but after learning more about how Android functions, I finally realized why some many people are so adamant against using task killers. Android is not the same as Windows, where the more memory you have the better.

And again, if you truly MUST have that close button, there are options that let you do this. So I don't fully understand what the fuss is over.
 
UIexpert said:
If people didn't need to close apps there wouldn't be 50 app killing apps out there, right?
Click to expand...

Incorrect - if put in context.

App killers sprang up in the ancient days of Android.

Like the old lady's perfume, they just won't go away and get worse with time.

You don't use them.

In an extreme case - and you'll find they're rare - you use your built-in Application control.

What you think is a running app is usually a small number of bytes in memory saying, hey OS - if the guy wants this back, he left it like this, and it's in cold storage doing nothing, over there.

Because the world's majority of PC users come from Windows (usually poorly configured) I'll predict by this time next year, the number of app killers will increase by 25% - for no good reason.

They get lots of users, these app killers.

Fortunately, they get about as many un-installs.

Because they screw with the system, the fastest way to make Android unstable is to decide you know more than the executive and start killing apps on your own.
 
EarlyMon said:
Incorrect - if put in context.

App killers sprang up in the ancient days of Android.

Like the old lady's perfume, they just won't go away and get worse with time.

You don't use them.

In an extreme case - and you'll find they're rare - you use your built-in Application control.

What you think is a running app is usually a small number of bytes in memory saying, hey OS - if the guy wants his back, he left it like this, and it's in cold storage doing nothing, over there.

Because the world's majority of PC users come from Windows (usually poorly configured) I'll predict by this time next year, the number of app killers will increase by 25% - for no good reason.

They get lots of users, these app killers.

Fortunately, they get about as many un-installs.

Because they screw with the system, the fastest way to make Android unstable is to decide you know more than the executive and start killing apps on your own.
Click to expand...

But but but my task killer is better than Android grrr!!

What if my task killer kills my task killer! Oh no! Then I can task kill because my killer got killed by a rogue Android killer appsicle!
 
EarlyMon said:
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Thank you, very helpful. Yes, I come from a windows world, it's hard for me to imagine apps doing what they are meant to without causing problems. (god how much I hate windows)

I'm going to test this, I'll keep 30 apps open for a day and see how the phones reacts and if it makes any difference to battery life, reaction time, etc.

This is all very strange for me... you're saying that there is actually very little difference between a closed app and an open app. You're saying that all apps could be open all the time and it won't make any difference to anything................
 
UIexpert said:
Thank you, very helpful. Yes, I come from a windows world, it's hard for me to imagine apps doing what they are meant to without causing problems. (god how much I hate windows)

I'm going to test this, I'll keep 30 apps open for a day and see how the phones reacts and if it makes any difference to battery life, reaction time, etc.
Click to expand...

Good luck....just don't hold your phone to close to your face or you might end up like that guy in Texas :p (jk)
 
UIexpert said:
Thank you, very helpful. Yes, I come from a windows world, it's hard for me to imagine apps doing what they are meant to without causing problems. (god how much I hate windows)

I'm going to test this, I'll keep 30 apps open for a day and see how the phones reacts and if it makes any difference to battery life, reaction time, etc.
Click to expand...

Most likely, 30 apps won't stay open. Android will automatically end the process, as it's meant to do.
 
EarlyMon said:
If you're talking about our bad spammer that just reappeared with a new name - maybe now, he's gone for good. ;)
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haha yah it was referring to the post right above mine, but it's gone ninja now :rolleyes:

edit. please don't concede yet, i still have 1 hour left at work and i'm really REALLY bored :(
 
UIexpert said:
Thank you, very helpful. Yes, I come from a windows world, it's hard for me to imagine apps doing what they are meant to without causing problems. (god how much I hate windows)

I'm going to test this, I'll keep 30 apps open for a day and see how the phones reacts and if it makes any difference to battery life, reaction time, etc.

This is all very strange for me... you're saying that there is actually very little difference between a closed app and an open app. You're saying that all apps could be open all the time and it won't make any difference to anything................
Click to expand...

Using SystemPanel Lite (free in the Market - try it) I just checked.

Including a few vendor-supplied apps for its hokey-pokey (you saw the video) plus my own apps - I have 25 _actively managed apps_ right now. It's probably not uncommon for me. With your advanced Android 2.3 compared to my Android 2.2 - your phone should have no trouble with this.

Are they all running? Many are hybernating - but if go to them, they're there instantly. As a user, without system tools like the one I'm suggesting - you can't tell what's running and what's not - nor should you need to.

Here's a printout that you won't understand - but it will inform and enlighten.

It's a snapshot of what my phone was doing under the hood one day when I asked this question before. Android is managing 40 apps or so at that point - maybe 5 of them were mine that I launched on purpose - the rest are system services.

Unlike what you expect - Android is running essential services all of the time.

It is at least as sophisticated as any consumer-use laptop with any OS you can name.

Here's that snapshot (it's a pdf pop-up, click it):
View attachment sample_of_stock_evo_processes.pdf

Now - you may notice how many processes are running under the hood.

Battery:

OK - like a laptop: if you walk around with your media player going, playing movies, while you stream high-speed Facebook updates, and maintain some large file downloads in the background, while using Google maps and GPS to track your location and keep track of your footsteps on the web - yeah, like a laptop - the more services you use, the quicker your battery will go.

If you have 60 less-service intensive apps running (not actually running - being managed, Android will decide about what runs) at once - you'll see much, much less battery impact.

And - using SystemPanel Lite, you'll see your CPU speed up and slow down to accommodate and also respond to the system load. Ditto with memory use.

And it's all optimized to walk the line - so you don't have to - between speed and efficiency and battery life.

It's about the slickest thing you've ever seen.

Not even your laptop can do that.
 
UIexpert said:
OK cool... I believe you, just thought it would be a good idea to make a poll out of this question:

http://androidforums.com/android-lounge/241217-poll-killing-apps.html
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I might take it down as causing confusion.

We don't really vote on the law of gravity.

I haven't seen this one yet, so I'll decide that shortly.

If you have 99% of Android newbies responding, you're going to get 99% positive response to app killers. If you have 99% experienced responding, you're going to get 99% against it.

~~~~

Edit - ok, it looks fun.

You'll get lots of newbie app-killer fans, maybe this will be an opportunity to educate them, too.

Then consider that of the answers you'll get, your next poll will need to be: How many apps have you run in the last 3 months?
 
EarlyMon said:
I might take it down as causing confusion.

We don't really vote on the law of gravity.

I haven't seen this one yet, so I'll decide that shortly.

If you have 99% of Android newbies responding, you're going to get 99% positive response to app killers. If you have 99% experienced responding, you're going to get 99% against it.

~~~~

Edit - ok, it looks fun.

You'll get lots of newbie app-killer fans, maybe this will be an opportunity to educate them, too.

Then consider that of the answers you'll get, your next poll will need to be: How many apps have you run in the last 3 months?
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Yes please lock that thread please!
 
AndroidSPCS said:
Yes please lock that thread please!
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Yeah. I thought about it.

UIexpert, I'll make you a deal.

Use your phone for 30 days, get a bit of experience under your belt with Android - see for yourself with your own intensive tests.

If after that, you still want to poll on this, PM me, and we'll work with you to make a poll that won't draw fire, just answers.

I think that's fair and square.

PS - Feel free to run buggy and beta-level code during your intensive tests. Not sure why anyone would do a lot of that, but you'll see what there is to see. Personally, I think it just makes sense to avoid buggy code - but whatever floats your boat.
 
OK no problem. Just two questions - whats the best RSS reader and how do I log into gchat with one account while having my entire phone on another account? ;-)
 
Am I the only one who thinks the UI on my phone and the G1 I had was perfectly fine and dandy? The UI on the vibrant now is pretty good and pretty easy to use even for those not so technically inclined. Hell my 59 yr old dad was able to figure it out with the short time he was messing with it at our thanksgiving lunch last month.
 
UIexpert said:
OK no problem. Just two questions - whats the best RSS reader and how do I log into gchat with one account while having my entire phone on another account? ;-)
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Somebuddy else will have to recommend an RSS reader - I'm using a vendor-supplied one and couldn't be happier.

You background/built-in Gtalk may be providing service messages with google (not sure, but it's possible) - so, you don't want to fuss with that one.

Here's one way:

Launch your browser (probably best if not in mobile mode, not sure) and just go to http://www.gmail.com - login, and use the web-based tool.

And there are message aggregators that I'm sure you could find that would let you do that. Unless the browser trick isn't what you want, somebuddy will suggest an app for that if I don't.
 
UIexpert said:
OK no problem. Just two questions - whats the best RSS reader and how do I log into gchat with one account while having my entire phone on another account? ;-)
Click to expand...

I'll answer the first one - I prefer FeedR, I like the way it mobilizes blogs - YMMV. I've tried several, that one stood out.
 
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