• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

Blame Google for the slow 2.1 update

There was nothing misguided about the OP's thread. We've all been yelling in various posts about the delay in 2.1 reaching us. Others have been misguided in thinking that anyone other than Google had 2.1 to give! (or the authority thereof to release it).
 
Open Source does not mean source has to be released. The kernel is GPL and that does mean source has to be released but Android is released under the Apache license which is open source but doesn't enforce releasing changes to the public.

I seriously doubt Google put any restrictions on HTC based on the N1 launch. It doesn't make sense based on the way they do business everywhere else. And the N1 is an HTC phone. Since Android is Apache licensed once HTC had the source for the N1 they could use it for the Hero based on the license. They can make exclusive deals for hardware but not the OS based on the license. Those claiming otherwise don't know how OSS works or are unfamiliar with the licenses involved.
 
Open Source does not mean source has to be released. The kernel is GPL and that does mean source has to be released but Android is released under the Apache license which is open source but doesn't enforce releasing changes to the public.

I seriously doubt Google put any restrictions on HTC based on the N1 launch. It doesn't make sense based on the way they do business everywhere else. And the N1 is an HTC phone. Since Android is Apache licensed once HTC had the source for the N1 they could use it for the Hero based on the license. They can make exclusive deals for hardware but not the OS based on the license. Those claiming otherwise don't know how OSS works or are unfamiliar with the licenses involved.
 
I seriously doubt Google put any restrictions on HTC based on the N1 launch. It doesn't make sense based on the way they do business everywhere else. And the N1 is an HTC phone. Since Android is Apache licensed once HTC had the source for the N1 they could use it for the Hero based on the license. They can make exclusive deals for hardware but not the OS based on the license. Those claiming otherwise don't know how OSS works or are unfamiliar with the licenses involved.

Just because we doubt it, doesn't nullify it. We can read the above posts for clarity...or simply watch what has happened IRL. Google owns and has not released 2.1...end of story.

HTC nor anyone else can override that. The N1 was commissioned to HTC for manufacturing purposes. It is a Google idea but Google doesn't manufacture phones hence...the partnership. So, HTC has access but not authority to release 2.1- And if at all, it will not precede an agreed upon date. Android doesn't originate with HTC, it originates with Google.

This is all very elementary. We try and complicate it to make sense of it. But it's plain and simple. What Google owns, Google protects. They have a phone to sell whose biggest selling point is 2.1 - If you have a non Google phone with that...they have shot themselves in the foot. So, you (nor I) will get 2.1 until Google is satisfied that they have exhausted the opportunity for N1's initial sales boost.

Open source, closed source. If the owner of the source doesn't release it officially, we don't get it officially.
 
I don't get the "blame" part.

Consumer "Gimme. I know you have it and I want it now"

Developer/Owner "No. We are not ready to release it full scale yet."

Consumer "I don't care. I want it now. I am distressed and it is your fault for not letting me have your property!!"

Sound about right??
 
I don't get the "blame" part.

Consumer "Gimme. I know you have it and I want it now"

Developer/Owner "No. We are not ready to release it full scale yet."

Consumer "I don't care. I want it now. I am distressed and it is your fault for not letting me have your property!!"

Sound about right??

Yep. Except you left out the "I just paid a grip for it and you promised me speedy updates" part.
 
Just because we doubt it, doesn't nullify it. We can read the above posts for clarity...or simply watch what has happened IRL. Google owns and has not released 2.1...end of story.
You are only partially right. Once they give the source to HTC, regardless of their intent, it is under the Apache license and that is what governs what HTC does with it. Google can only control the source as far as they keep the source in-house.

HTC nor anyone else can override that. The N1 was commissioned to HTC for manufacturing purposes. It is a Google idea but Google doesn't manufacture phones hence...the partnership. So, HTC has access but not authority to release 2.1- And if at all, it will not precede an agreed upon date. Android doesn't originate with HTC, it originates with Google.
It has been released, on the N1, and because of that it is out there. Google doesn't have to give the source to anyone under the Apache license but they did give to HTC. HTC had it before the N1 was even confirmed. They announced they were working on the 2.1 update for the Hero when the N1 was just a rumor and didn't even have a name yet. HTC has all the authority they need, with the Apache license, to release 2.1 and if they wanted to they could release the whole source without any legal recourse from Google. Google may have cut a deal with them not to release an update for a certain amount of time but HTC agreed to it. Once they have the source, since it's Apache licensed, they can do with it as they choose. Any agreements they made are on HTC and not Google. HTC could have said no IF there is an agreement in place.

This is all very elementary. We try and complicate it to make sense of it. But it's plain and simple. What Google owns, Google protects. They have a phone to sell whose biggest selling point is 2.1 - If you have a non Google phone with that...they have shot themselves in the foot. So, you (nor I) will get 2.1 until Google is satisfied that they have exhausted the opportunity for N1's initial sales boost.
This is provably wrong. The 2.1 source is out there. It has been released by Google. Why do you think there are already ROMs for the Sprint Hero? The source is on Google's site. Google no longer controls what anyone does with it and they don't even have to release their changes to Android because of the Apache license. Once it's release anyone can do what they want with it including HTC. If HTC made an agreement with Google then the blame is on HTC and not Google. Google asked and HTC said yes. But there is no proof there is any agreement in place and the existence on one is pure conjecture based on a lack of knowledge of the licenses involved.

Open source, closed source. If the owner of the source doesn't release it officially, we don't get it officially.
Open source does matter. You are still speaking from a position of ignorance regarding the way OSS development works. Google has made the source available to the public through their Git repository and at that point they can't stop anyone from using it. Once they handed it to HTC then HTC could use it as they saw fit because of the license involved. So I state again if any agreement were made the blame is on HTC for accepting the agreement. As of Jan 21 the course was available to the public so any agreement HTC made that lasts past that certainly puts the blame solely on HTC. Your whole assumption is based on how closed source development works. OSS development works differently. If code has an open source license and you give it to someone else then you can't stop them from using it however they see fit. HTC has 2.1 and has for a while. If they haven't started working on the update then it's on them and not Google.

Eclair has been in the repo since at least Nov 12, possibly before but I don't want to dig through the history, so from Nov 12 HTC could have been working on a 2.x update for the Hero with nothing to stop them. And that's just based on a lazy look at the dates. They aren't stalling for Google IMO they are stalling to give their own new handset a chance. Google likely doesn't care one way or the other. HTC made the N1 and they want to boost sales of the handset. Google may be selling it but they are selling it like anyone else sells a handset. The source is out there already and HTC has had it for a while. It's under the Apache license. HTC could have released an update the day Google gave them the source because of the license involved. They didn't ergo the blame lies with HTC.
 
We will have a 2.1 ROM very soon. Then HTC will take that same ROM and make their tweaks and call it their own. I am not sure what the incentive is for a business to develop new ROM's. The fact that everything is open source means anyone can make a ROM that works 100%. HTC should just publish updates that effect the core of the hardware of which they made. They could even charge for an app that would basically be an update program. Those updates should be free. But they could come faster if they are only updating small bits of the overall phone. There has grown a market for custom ROM's. People are making money off of that. That is pure capitalism without any regulation that is working just ****ing fine. I want HTC to keep building new phone that tie even more into Android. Then give it to us with the code and let the world run. IF this process picks up momentum HTC can take over a lot of the market share on actual hardware. The could sell their updates to the carriers to support their customers. The phone would come with a bare bones version of the most current android software and some carrier bloat. Pretty much how it's happening already. HTC can still develop their UI because that will be compatible with their specific phones as is. Again the updates can come from the community, if there is a demand there will be people who will take this on. I mean who waits around anymore for company updates? New users? They will eventually consolidate into the forums like this one as their source for updates. Sell ads. done.
 
3. SDK License from Google
3.1 Subject to the terms of this License Agreement, Google grants you a limited, worldwide, royalty-free, non- assignable and non-exclusive license to use the SDK solely to develop applications to run on the Android platform.


Hopefully we are clear. Google owns Android. Developers may contribute to but do not own nor withhold nor have control over Android.

So again, as pertaining to the release of 2.1 to END USERS - There is no official release. The N1 is the only phone with an official release of 2.1.

Of course there are versions available that one uses at his or her own risk. What we are asking for is our official copy. So far, nothing from Verizon, Tmo nor Sprint. And that isn't happenstance.

Yet, I still believe in miracles and "somewhere out there" is 2.1 - officially. For my phone. For which I have received an alert from my carrier informing me of an OTA update available. So far, that hasn't happened for any of us.




 


Hopefully we are clear. Google owns Android. Developers may contribute to but do not own nor withhold nor have control over Android.

You are referencing the SDK which is NOT the source. There is a different license for the SDK because it is a development kit and NOT the Android source. If you go to the page to download the source (Get source (Android Open Source Project)) you will find no such disclaimer or agreement. In fact if you look around the source page you will find this:

(Source: Licenses (Android Open Source Project))
Licenses
The Android Open Source Project uses a few open source initiative approved open source licenses to enable availability of source code and to accept contributions from individuals and corporations.

Android Open Source Project license

The preferred license for the Android Open Source Project is Apache 2.0. Apache 2.0 is a commercial and open source friendly open source license. The majority of the Android platform is licensed under the Apache 2.0 license. While the project will strive to adhere to the preferred license, there may be exceptions which will be handled on a case-by-case basis. For example, the Linux kernel patches are under the GPLv2 license with system exceptions, which can be found on kernel.org .


Once again you are entirely wrong. You cite a EULA from the SDK which does not cover the source code. The official information from Google states clearly that Android is licensed under the Apache license. There is NO EULA for the source which, under the Apache license, Google cannot control once it is given to anyone else, which they have done for 2.1


So again, as pertaining to the release of 2.1 to END USERS - There is no official release. The N1 is the only phone with an official release of 2.1.
You are confused. 2.1 has been released. It is under the Apache license and anyone, including HTC or any other phone manufacture, can use git grab the source, compile it, and put it on their phone. You seem to become more and more confused about how OSS development works. Google only controls what changes, out of the submitted changes, are added to main trunk of the source. They do not control how anyone uses the source as they cannot. It is released to the public, that includes companies, and anyone can use it as they see fit.

Of course there are versions available that one uses at his or her own risk. What we are asking for is our official copy. So far, nothing from Verizon, Tmo nor Sprint. And that isn't happenstance.
Of course it isn't happenstance. Development takes time. HTC likely dedicated more development time to pushing out the N1 than they have to updating the Hero. Both would take the same amount of time given the same amount of equally qualified developers. 2.1 is a new kernel, a new backend, and so on. It is like developing the original load all over again. It's not a simple update. So of course it takes time. So far the time involved isn't all that long by any stretch of the imagination if you know anything about software development. And it is likely not much can be shared between the N1 dev team and the Hero dev team since it's totally different architecture. You are spewing conspiracy theories that make no sense at all when you have any understanding of the way software development works and the OSS licenses involved. You have no evidence at all except your claim of "this makes sense if you think about it" but if anyone thinks about it knows the licenses involved, the history of the way Google does things, and the way software development works then it not longer makes sense at all.

Yet, I still believe in miracles and "somewhere out there" is 2.1 - officially. For my phone. For which I have received an alert from my carrier informing me of an OTA update available. So far, that hasn't happened for any of us.
Probably won't be OTA but keep hoping. I for one don't want OTA due to the issues that can happen if you lose connection during re-imaging a phone. This isn't a series of patches. This is brain surgery on your phone. OTA would be dangerous and worst and catastrophic at best.
 
n fact if you look around the source page you will find this:

(Source: Licenses (Android Open Source Project))
Licenses
The Android Open Source Project uses a few open source initiative approved open source licenses to enable availability of source code and to accept contributions from individuals and corporations.

Your own quote makes my point: The Android Open Source Project uses a few open source initiative approved open source licenses to enable availability of source code and to accept contributions from individuals and corporations.[/quote]

If anyone asked with reference to Android, "where does the buck stop?" Google would be the reply. They own the proprietary apps and the platform originates with them. Conceded that the developing iterations are the developer's own inventions/additions to the platform. They still cannot frame their creations over the Google Apps (Google Maps, Google Voice etc - which are NOT Open Source) within Android and call it their own. Thus, Google maintains some power in the equation.

After all of our discussion I am left with the question: Where is 2.1 with regard to it being officially released to End Users?

And regarding OTA updates, I have never had a problem with receiving them. I have a rock solid connection and look forward to 2.1 or whatever iteration they deign to send us poor fledglings, LOL
 
Something that might be part of this equation: HTC's sense UI takes more time to tweak for the developers at HTC than the raw 2.1 that was included with the Nexus One.
 
I'm really not worried about any of this. When 2.1 is ready for us it will be ready! After rooting to Fresh, honestly i may not even unroot to get the OTA update or however it is distributed. I might end up just waiting til the official 2.1 rom specifically for the Hero(not ported from N1) has a rooted build like Fresh and skip the whole hassle of having to downgrade back to stock. Not to mention if they did indeed patch the root access in 2.1, then u won't be able re-root once a built 2.1 rom is available.
 
Without reading this entire thread I have to say it is ridiculous and I will say why.

First off, the moment you purchase the handset you have bought a device as is, with no entitlement to upgrades, that thought is just absolutely ridiculous. The FACT that the OS developer and equipment manufacturer have committed to improving their products with the PROMISE of updates and improvement does not in any way, shape or form mean it is something owed to you.

I would say just sit back and relax, wait for it... if you just can't find it within you to do so, then there are less generous platforms and equipment manufacturers you can donate your $ to.

:cool:
 
Without reading this entire thread I have to say it is ridiculous and I will say why.

First off, the moment you purchase the handset you have bought a device as is, with no entitlement to upgrades, that thought is just absolutely ridiculous. The FACT that the OS developer and equipment manufacturer have committed to improving their products with the PROMISE of updates and improvement does not in any way, shape or form mean it is something owed to you.

I would say just sit back and relax, wait for it... if you just can't find it within you to do so, then there are less generous platforms and equipment manufacturers you can donate your $ to.

:cool:

I'm with you on the relaxing part, but want to let you know that for me, the promise by the guy in the Sprint store that 2.1 was "guaranteed," was the icing on the cake. I would not have turned-in my touch diamond and upgraded last month, had 2.1 not been promised.

But, again, I'm in no rush and understand that I'll get it when it comes out...

Pete
 
But, again, I'm in no rush and understand that I'll get it when it comes out...
Pete

Yes, no doubt, me too, the thought of the product getting support after the sale was too great to pass up. Like you I am willing to wait. I get a new phone every year too, and if they update this Hero then I might stay with it even longer, I love this phone, it really is Top Notch!!!
 
Without reading this entire thread I have to say it is ridiculous and I will say why.

First off, the moment you purchase the handset you have bought a device as is, with no entitlement to upgrades, that thought is just absolutely ridiculous. The FACT that the OS developer and equipment manufacturer have committed to improving their products with the PROMISE of updates and improvement does not in any way, shape or form mean it is something owed to you.

I would say just sit back and relax, wait for it... if you just can't find it within you to do so, then there are less generous platforms and equipment manufacturers you can donate your $ to.

:cool:


I don't agree with this at all. When you buy a dumbphone, you are stuck with the original OS that is purchased, possibly with no updates from the manufacturer, though few have released OTAs in the past.

When you buy a smartphone, you are purchasing a software license/agreement for updated software. This is similar to purchasing an AV on your PC. Surely you would want frequent updates on those after spending that kind of money.


My take on this is that HTC wants to see the success of the N1 just as much as Google does. Since Google chose HTC to be its' manufacturer, HTC has a interest to keep this contract and impress Google. If it means holding off on a update to sell a few thousand more handsets, then so be it.
 
I don't agree with this at all. When you buy a dumbphone, you are stuck with the original OS that is purchased, possibly with no updates from the manufacturer, though few have released OTAs in the past.

When you buy a smartphone, you are purchasing a software license/agreement for updated software. This is similar to purchasing an AV on your PC. Surely you would want frequent updates on those after spending that kind of money.
You are wrong. There is nothing in the agreement that you signed or I signed that promises updated software at all. You may feel like you are entitled to updates but neither Sprint nor HTC is obligated in any legal fashion to provide them. They may be legally liable for security updates, which is akin to your A/V example, but they are not obligated to provide OS upgrades which is more like expecting MS to provide Windows 7 because you purchased a PC with Windows Vista. Keeping the base OS secure is not even a requirement. I can installed Red Hat Enterprise Linux all day long but if I don't pay the subscription fee I cannot get updates even if they are security updates. So there are many models out there regarding OS's and updates but not one in the PC space where you are upgraded to the next major release of the OS for free.

I'm with you on the relaxing part, but want to let you know that for me, the promise by the guy in the Sprint store that 2.1 was "guaranteed," was the icing on the cake. I would not have turned-in my touch diamond and upgraded last month, had 2.1 not been promised.
You may have a claim to break your contract with Sprint based on an employee promising something that isn't able to be promised but that's the most you have. None of the agreements you signed guarantee updates. A salesman making a promise doesn't give you much other than the ability for you to break your contract if you could prove the salesman said that. Sprint is bound only by the agreements you signed. Of course we all want the 2.1 update but it is still not a guarantee.

Your own quote makes my point: The Android Open Source Project uses a few open source initiative approved open source licenses to enable availability of source code and to accept contributions from individuals and corporations.
You still appear to not understand OSS licenses. I could take Android, minus the bits you mention below, modify it to my heart's content and release it to the public and there is nothing Google could do to stop me. Android is Open Source, at least until 2.1, and Google only controls what is added to the main source tree. They do not control who uses it or how it is used.

If anyone asked with reference to Android, "where does the buck stop?" Google would be the reply. They own the proprietary apps and the platform originates with them. Conceded that the developing iterations are the developer's own inventions/additions to the platform. They still cannot frame their creations over the Google Apps (Google Maps, Google Voice etc - which are NOT Open Source) within Android and call it their own. Thus, Google maintains some power in the equation.
The answer would only be that if the person asked didn't know how open source worked. You bring the Google Mobile Apps into the equation. These are not Android. They are only apps that run on Android. Yes Google controls them but they are not Android. You claim, without proof, that Google made agreements with HTC to hold off on Android 2.1 and that has been disproved simply by the OSS license used for Android. Now you bring in Google's apps which are not the OS.

Do you even understand how Google does business? They make no money on apps, services, etc. Their money is made through advertising and always has been. The N1 will be a loss leader for them just like the XBox is for MS. It will serve to drive people to their advertising services. So why would they make agreements that will cut their advertising revenue on other phones? They wouldn't. They haven't done so historically and there is no logical reason for them to do so now. It just doesn't make any sense. Your conjecture may make sense for a business model that makes money selling tangible goods but Google will most likely take a loss on the N1 as they are selling it to be a vehicle for more advertising and that alone shows they wouldn't have made agreements that cut their revenue in other areas to make the N1 more desirable.

After all of our discussion I am left with the question: Where is 2.1 with regard to it being officially released to End Users?
Wherever it is in the HTC development cycle.

And regarding OTA updates, I have never had a problem with receiving them. I have a rock solid connection and look forward to 2.1 or whatever iteration they deign to send us poor fledglings, LOL
Neither have I but there is significant risk in an OTA update for a full version OS upgrade. I would prefer to have a machine based upgrade even though it would mean I have find a Windows machine to do the upgrade because I don't have one sitting around.
 
Y

You may have a claim to break your contract with Sprint based on an employee promising something that isn't able to be promised but that's the most you have. None of the agreements you signed guarantee updates. A salesman making a promise doesn't give you much other than the ability for you to break your contract if you could prove the salesman said that. Sprint is bound only by the agreements you signed. Of course we all want the 2.1 update but it is still not a guarantee.

What makes you think I want to break my contract with Sprint? Further, how can you be sure what I signed for Sprint and what I had Sprint sign for me?
Either way, thanks for the refresher course on contract law.
Pete
 
I am sorry and I am probably going to come off like an asshole to you but what did Sprint sign for you mister lawyer pants?
 
Sometimes people just don't get it. Thanks for the contractual breakdown, I love it. But to the point in simpler terms... By the presented you would imply that once purchasing a product that you are entitled to any better version post purchase. Like if the vehicle you bought had somehow become more efficient the following model you would be entitled to the same engine/efficiency upgrades??? A LCD TV got better resolution through some software or driver upgrades that you would again be entitled to the same. By your argument then too Microsoft would owe you the newer version of their software when produced because you felt that knowing an update would come making the OS better that somehow this newer version belonged to you at no cost... etc., etc.

See, you should no to be looking at this piece of equipment in any different way, than any other electronic purchase.

That said, being a tortured soul of past phone ownerships with absolutely NO support, no upgrades, updates or whatever... I have to say I am pleasantly relieved to know that the Equipment manufacturer and OS developer has COMMITTED to doing something different and breaking the mold. That they WILL upgrade and make it available on existing equipment... at the cost of potential future upgrade purchases and profits(see Apple).

Ok... It's just my opinion, but I think a more realistic and patient one than some of the hysterical, gotta have it NOW, why can't I have it NOW, they owe it to me NOW - opinions out there.
 
Back
Top Bottom