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Help EVO capping all graphics @ 30FPS?

Dude what the heck are you talking about?

In a high profile First Person shooter game, you want the highest frames per second possible so that you don't experience ghosting/lag or whatever. Then after that you make sure that you have a fast connection. They also have very fast TN panels.

I don't know any serious PC first person shooter players accepting a minimum framerate, they accept 60fps.

I suggest you read up on Anandtech about what minimum framerate even means before discussing it.



Does it matter? Well it should because you know why? History tends to repeat itself if you accept the faults.

HTCClassAction.org - Because HTC dropped the ball, and it's about time they pick it up!

Continue to bend over for HTC.

What does severe driver problems with old HTC phones have to do with the EVO capping the framerate at 30fps, likely for battery saving? It's not like there's no GPU acceleration.
 
Dude what the heck are you talking about?

In a high profile First Person shooter game, you want the highest frames per second possible so that you don't experience ghosting/lag or whatever. Then after that you make sure that you have a fast connection. They also have very fast TN panels.

I don't know any serious PC first person shooter players accepting a minimum framerate, they accept 60fps.

I know.. No PC gamer wants less than 60fps
 
I suggest you read up on Anandtech about what minimum framerate even means before discussing it.





What does severe driver problems with old HTC phones have to do with the EVO capping the framerate at 30fps, likely for battery saving? It's not like there's no GPU acceleration.


Or because they didn't want to pay for drivers.
 

Was there a point to posting that? The issue here is minimum framerate. Also, the whole reason PC gaming came up wasn't even related to 60fps. It was related to the minimum necessary. Consoles seem to have no issue with 30fps, so it's ridiculous to say that 30fps is not acceptable on a small screen phone who's hardware is typically not capable of graphics over 30fps in the first place.
 
Personally, I am a PC gamer and while I do have a console, it is used to play very specific games that either are not out for the PC or the PC version has issues with DRM and I won't install it on my system at home for security purposes.

Yes, you are correct that the minimum spec is 30 FPS. If the frame rate dips below 30, it is quite noticeable to almost anyone. If you want to speak about what the professional gamers want, I can tell you (as I used to be one) that you want the maximum framerate possible. 60 FPS is ideal, though more is always welcome but is rarely useful. I have played games such as Unreal tournament that I hit 120 fps and I could tell a difference from 60, but that was with a 120 hertz monitor/TV at 1080p. It felt smoother, though I admit, if asked to identify the difference in 60 and 120 fps, I would be doubtful I could without 'playing' the game.

The point I am trying to make is that no, we do not 'need' 60 fps as a minimum spec. What we need is the ability for our devices to perform as well as a device that is almost 2 years older. Limits or not, for whatever reason, at least give us the choice and the ability to choose how we as individuals want to use our devices.

You may not need or want the ability to get 60 fps. You might not even be able to tell the difference. There is nothing wrong with you wanting your device to do what you want it to. Myself, and others however, want at least the ability to choose. Why you ask? Because that is what 'I' want my device to do.

Important to you or not, at least respect our desire to do something to the device to help those, like myself, that want their phone to perform the way we see others doing.
 
I suggest you read up on Anandtech about what minimum framerate even means before discussing it.

*Face Palm*

I know what minimum framerates and maximum framerates are. I suggest you actually comprehend what Anand is talking about. The problem is that 30fps is the EVO's MAX, not its MIN. So I don't know how you are relating PC FPS and EVO FPS.

In PC gaming, yes you want your MIN to be 30fps, but its preferable to have your avg FPS mostly at 60fps and above. Sheesh.

What does severe driver problems with old HTC phones have to do with the EVO capping the framerate at 30fps, likely for battery saving? It's not like there's no GPU acceleration.

Because we are likely experiencing that problem now with the EVO. Put 2 and 2 together.
 
Well, time for everybody to give up this thread. Somebody got a response from Sprint over at XDA Developers. According to the Sprint contact working the issue, HTC just told Sprint that the 30 fps cap is caused by the HDMI port and is not fixable.
 
The point I am trying to make is that no, we do not 'need' 60 fps as a minimum spec. What we need is the ability for our devices to perform as well as a device that is almost 2 years older. Limits or not, for whatever reason, at least give us the choice and the ability to choose how we as individuals want to use our devices.

You may not need or want the ability to get 60 fps. You might not even be able to tell the difference. There is nothing wrong with you wanting your device to do what you want it to. Myself, and others however, want at least the ability to choose. Why you ask? Because that is what 'I' want my device to do.

Important to you or not, at least respect our desire to do something to the device to help those, like myself, that want their phone to perform the way we see others doing.

But you're not going to get 60fps except in benchmarks in the first place. That is the issue here.

Video playback? 99% of video is 30fps or lower.

Gaming? 99% of 3D games run 30fps or slower, especially on Snapdragon GPUs.

UI? 99% of the UI is static, and never moves.



*Face Palm*

I know what minimum framerates and maximum framerates are. I suggest you actually comprehend what Anand is talking about. The problem is that 30fps is the EVO's MAX, not its MIN. So I don't know how you are relating PC FPS and EVO FPS.

In PC gaming, yes you want your MIN to be 30fps, but its preferable to have your avg FPS mostly at 60fps and above. Sheesh.

Except it's actually both the MAX AND MIN. Since you're going to be hard pressed to find anything that would reach 60fps in the first place, outside of a benchmark. But you've kindly skipped over this point a good 5 times now, so I feel it is falling on deaf ears.


Because we are likely experiencing that problem now with the EVO. Put 2 and 2 together.

So now we're theorizing? What happened to all the documented proof?
 
But you're not going to get 60fps except in benchmarks in the first place. That is the issue here.
Video playback? 99% of video is 30fps or lower.
Gaming? 99% of 3D games run 30fps or slower, especially on Snapdragon GPUs.
UI? 99% of the UI is static, and never moves.

Watch the videos the proof is there.

The UI is static? WTF, when you swipe your finger and the home screen moves left and right what do you call that? lol. There's no video, but its called an animation.

Except it's actually both the MAX AND MIN. Since you're going to be hard pressed to find anything that would reach 60fps in the first place, outside of a benchmark. But you've kindly skipped over this point a good 5 times now, so I feel it is falling on deaf ears.

You've skipped over my points and mountain of proof, so whats your point? A max AND min of 30fps is not enough. A max fps of 60fps is called leeway when the device needs it. Again watch the video of the Nexus1 vs Evo

So now we're theorizing? What happened to all the documented proof?

What happened to the documented proof? I have loads and you have none. The only theory is that it could be the same problem as the Tilt. The fact still stands that HTC gimps their devices before, it doesn't have to be the EXACT problem for you to make a correlation.

Short of a DNA sample I would say you're reaching a bit here and making up lame excuses.
 
Some rather promising updates regarding the FPS cap over at XDA via this thread.

Evo capping all graphics to 30FPS:The reason why graphics performance sucks right now - xda-developers

Looks like HTC has acknowledged the issue and will (eventually) be pushing out a firmware update to correct it.

Now its time to play the waiting game.
Good to know.

Now as for this thread, listen folks, we can continue to discuss the issue without flaming each other or getting into heated debates and have the thread continue or continue the bs and it gets closed in a NY Minute.

Choose but choose wisely.

In the meantime I am moving this to the Support section.

TS out
 
Some rather promising updates regarding the FPS cap over at XDA via this thread.

Evo capping all graphics to 30FPS:The reason why graphics performance sucks right now - xda-developers

Looks like HTC has acknowledged the issue and will (eventually) be pushing out a firmware update to correct it.

Now its time to play the waiting game.

What are the promising updates? I couldn't find any hard evidence.

Some say that its an HDMI issue and some say its a software issue. If its an HDMI issue then it seems like there is nothing they can do.

I would play the waiting game, but I only have 14 days to return my device to Wirefly. Unfortunately I won't be an EVO owner anymore and I'm gonna stick to my HTC diamond until the Galaxy S or the iPhone becomes available.

A sad day for the EVO land.
 
What are the promising updates? I couldn't find any hard evidence.

Some say that its an HDMI issue and some say its a software issue. If its an HDMI issue then it seems like there is nothing they can do.

I would play the waiting game, but I only have 14 days to return my device to Wirefly. Unfortunately I won't be an EVO owner anymore and I'm gonna stick to my HTC diamond until the Galaxy S or the iPhone becomes available.

A sad day for the EVO land.

Not really. It may be a sad day for you. But its a happy day in EVO land for myself and many other users. I am yet to see a game or application that requires 60fps. I am yet to notice any differences at all. Look android market doesnt have the best selection of 3d games anyway. Plus what 3d game developer makes mobile games to run at 60fps? I think the answer is none. My xbox360 plays amazing at 30fps. Games that i have played play great at 30fps. What is the difference?

Now i am not arguing with your decision to return your evo. In fact i am encouraging you to. If this matters that much to you (and it obviously does) then by all means return it. I am assuming you are a gamer. Well the iphone has many great game developers. Only problem is the tiny screen. When i had my iphone i never bought a single game for it. I just couldnt enjoy playing a game on a screen where my finger blocks half the screen and i am left with about 2 inches or less of screen. It just seemed goofy. Physics games like angry birds are cool. But on a 3.5 inch screen the birds look more like angry bee bee's. Tower defense games are cool. But none of them run faster than 30fps anyway.
Video's dont run more than 30fps either.

What am i missing? And please dont say its the principal of it. Why get so upset over something just for the sake of principal? And no a 1 year old Hero doesnt run a single app better than the EVO. Not a single one. And benchmarking apps dont mean anything.
 
...What am i missing? And please dont say its the principal of it. Why get so upset over something just for the sake of principal? And no a 1 year old Hero doesnt run a single app better than the EVO. Not a single one. And benchmarking apps dont mean anything.

Actually, I have several things to say in response to this. I've taken about 4 days off to re-evaluate why exactly I'm not liking the way the Evo is displaying it's animations, both 2D and 3D. The reason it's annoying me and, and through annoyance, angering me, is that it's not smooth. I can noticeably tell the difference between the Evo, and my Hero. The Hero, both on the home screen, and even through something as simple as scrolling through text, is always smooth (albeit if something like Pandora is munching away at it's old Arm11 CPU). The Evo however, even on a fresh boot and with nothing running in the back, is never quite smooth. If you sit there and scroll through pages and pages of text reading as I do often times in the morning, whether it be news, the shenanigans of Engadget, whatever, you can very easily see the skips and studders as it stumbles it's way through the scrolling animations. This, after about 15 minutes, either makes me just turn the screen off, and pocket it, or just shut my phone off and go continue my read on my computer.

Now if you want to be really into it, as I am, sit down, and with a steady hand, scroll down and up through the pages. You'll notice that you can see the text and images on the page jump and jerk up and down after you scroll. You'll notice this every time, unless you try hard to turn a blind eye and just get annoyed by the plain fact that it's not smooth.

I'm not going to say anything about the 'principal' of the thing, as you've said you don't want to hear, and I don't want to hear it either. I don't quite frankly care about it much, neither, so I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) we're on the same page. But the thing is, it just looks really really bad when compared in-hand against something much more dated, like the Hero and a G1, for 2 prime examples.

As for the Hero not running one single application better than the Evo, I can name a few right here. It can run....
1) The browser better (no chunky scrolling)
2) Any games involving lots of moving/scrolling animations
3) Any 3D based games (few, though there are)
4) It runs the Sense UI home replacement overlay smoother (no chunky scrolling or studders)
I'm going to stop here, I don't want to ruin all the others that people might want to point out.

As for the benchmarking apps not really meaning anything, I can agree with that to some degree. I think, in my honest opinion, that they're better for showing out existing problems rather than pitting phones against each other. Yes, it gives back results in a mathematical result with numbers and a chart, but I think, especially with the Evo, it's best suited to either showing flaws, problems, or issues.

That's where I break with your points so far. I do have to say, I'm glad the phone WORKS all the time, unlike it's brother on Tmobile running WinMo 6.5. My petty officer at our recruiters station saw my Evo and said, 'Hey you got it! How many times has it frozen up on you?'. Apparently, since he's had his HD2 for the past 3 or so weeks, he's had it lock up at LEAST twice a day requiring him to yank the battery out. He's still astounded I never have to pull my battery or force a restart to fix a problem. That, I can say at least, is a good thing about this phone when compared to others of similar nature. -edit- Almost forgot to say he's going to drop his HD2 soon here, and grab a Nexus One when he can. Lol.
 
I read your post and while it seemed well though out in the beginning it fell apart in the middle.

You mentioned the apps where the Hero runs better than the EVO and you mentioned any 3d games. Now this discussion is based around 30fps issue. So please tell me which 3d games are running higher than 30 fps? Because from what i understand the games are designed to run around 30fps. So are you saying the Hero is actually running the games better than they were designed to run? I'm confused.

Ok. Luckily i still have my Hero. I just powered it up and played Home Run Derby 3d on both the EVO and the Hero. Well the Evo played the game much much better than the hero. The graphics looked higher resolution. The screen is so much bigger and nice and there wasnt any lag or blur at all. The Hero didst play terrible. But it didnt play with the same smoothness and polished feel than the EVO did.
This isnt said to argue its the gods honest truth.

I also went to the same web site to scroll through text. Again the higher screen resolution made reading web sites so much nicer on the EVO. The text is larger. The higher resolution makes the letters in the words look so much less jagged. I scrolled and when moving paragraphs fast up and down the screen neither was very readable. And honestly that doesnt surprise me.

So if you have a Hero still or ever had one go try it for yourself. You will find out that nothing if better about that experience over the EVO.

When you listed your ways the Hero was better than the EVO were you being serious or just trying to make an argument. Because after putting them through a few test next to each other it wasnt even close. And it wasnt even close enough that i can say its subjective.

I would recommend you also taking your evo back. Because honestly if you cant enjoy this mobile experience the way it is right now then i dont think this phone is for you. This phone is head and shoulders above anything like the Hero.

BTW... my hero is in mint condition with a 8gb sd card. If you prefer it to the evo then i will make you a sweet deal on it.
 
Ok, so I just want to clarify something. Just because something is designed to run at 30 fps, does not mean it will not make use of more if the resources are available. While not a developer, I can say that I have run games at framerates they were never designed to be played at. It is not a matter of if something was designed to run at 30, so it will run at 30 no matter what, its that if it was designed to run at 30, but hits 60, the game FEELS more smooth.

Now, before you animators jump in and say that there are only a certain number of frames in an animation and it cannot be exceeded, remember, if a TV running at 120Hz can fill in frames on the fly, don't you think that a GPU would be doing the same?

My TV is 120Hz and I can quite profoundly tell a difference in a regular DVD played on it and one played on a normal 60Hz LCD TV. Same player and connection. If the movie was filmed at 30 fps (24 possibly) and my TV can make everything look and feel more smooth, shouldn't a GPU be able to do the same?

I just hope HTC didn't foul this up and force the HDMI to limit the fps of the display. This would be an engineering flaw that I would consider....well, I will leave my personal feelings out of this. Suffice to say, someone made a very poor decision and I do hope it can be addressed. Hell, just let us disable the port completely and give us the fps boost, or enable the port and reduce the fps.

Not going to say it should be easy to do, but choice is what makes Android so perfect for us all.
 
Its not really adding clarity to the discussion by talking about a user controlled setting in a high end television set. You are also comparing a movie to a video game or application.

Here is a better comparison. Plug an xbox 360 into to different tv's. 1 running at 60hrz and i running at 120 hrz and see if the game runs any different. I have done this recently when i just upgraded my tv. It doesnt make the games look any different.

You see computer games have settings in them that allow you to choose different graphical levels you want them to run at based on your pc. Cellphones do not. And keep in mind that these cell phone games and apps are designed to run with the most available handsets in the market. Developers are not going to waste time and money on apps that very few people will buy because very few people have the highest spec'd phone. I hate when i see another weak android device hit the market. I wish alll android phones now had a minimum standard. But they dont and they wont. So development will continue to make sure no one is excluded from possibly buying their apps.

I wish games and apps were running at the higher resolution of the EVO, Inc, ect. But it seems like most apps are iphone ports and they run at iphone resolutions. Maybe in a few years the apps will be better. The iphone 4 new screen should help us. But our problem on android is also going to be app storage space. Iphone developers can make bigger file sizes because the iphone4 can store 16-32 gigs of apps on the phone. Froyo should help some. But it will take time for us to be playing the hd games in large quantity.

But for now i dont see any games or apps that run better on the Incredible than on the EVO. If FPS were not limited on the software side then wouldnt we be seeing a difference between the Inc and the EVO in games like homerun derby 3d?
 
Not really. It may be a sad day for you. But its a happy day in EVO land for myself and many other users. I am yet to see a game or application that requires 60fps. I am yet to notice any differences at all. Look android market doesnt have the best selection of 3d games anyway. Plus what 3d game developer makes mobile games to run at 60fps? I think the answer is none. My xbox360 plays amazing at 30fps. Games that i have played play great at 30fps. What is the difference?

Now i am not arguing with your decision to return your evo. In fact i am encouraging you to. If this matters that much to you (and it obviously does) then by all means return it. I am assuming you are a gamer. Well the iphone has many great game developers. Only problem is the tiny screen. When i had my iphone i never bought a single game for it. I just couldnt enjoy playing a game on a screen where my finger blocks half the screen and i am left with about 2 inches or less of screen. It just seemed goofy. Physics games like angry birds are cool. But on a 3.5 inch screen the birds look more like angry bee bee's. Tower defense games are cool. But none of them run faster than 30fps anyway.
Video's dont run more than 30fps either.

What am i missing? And please dont say its the principal of it. Why get so upset over something just for the sake of principal? And no a 1 year old Hero doesnt run a single app better than the EVO. Not a single one. And benchmarking apps dont mean anything.

Its not just about games, its everyday tasks. Swiping, transitions, scrolling, panning, everything is slower and more laggy. There are videos out there showing the Nexus1, Droid Incredible, EVO 4G running. You'll see what I mean.

Android doesn't have a big market for games, but having laggy software doesn't really promote high quality games to be created on the platform.

Remember this isn't just about games. Its about everything, general use of your touch phone. Its a touch phone, touch inputs should be top notch.
 
could rooting and a custom ROM fix this? i havent rooted yet but definitely would if it would do that

Yummie... Personal Incarnation... I miss that guy, saved my butt soooo many times... best deal is an infinite life combo deck and fling (or the shivan dragon [something] that has your life during casting time for its power/toughness) a most expeditious method for execution.

back to the topic at hand however, it is true that an app will utilize what ever resources are given to it, regardless of the design intent, if the device is capable of giving an app 1000fps, the app will take it, even if there is no noticeable difference, you also have to remember the Evo is CAPPED at 30fps, that means it won't go over, but may run under (but not likely). I can understand this being a result of the HDMI port, but the devs should have put code in the OS/Sense UI/app that is capable of outputting HDMI video, that sense the connection and THEN turns down the fps to 30, allowing fps of >30 when the cable is not connected.
 
Its not really adding clarity to the discussion by talking about a user controlled setting in a high end television set. You are also comparing a movie to a video game or application.

Here is a better comparison. Plug an xbox 360 into to different tv's. 1 running at 60hrz and i running at 120 hrz and see if the game runs any different. I have done this recently when i just upgraded my tv. It doesnt make the games look any different.

You see computer games have settings in them that allow you to choose different graphical levels you want them to run at based on your pc. Cellphones do not. And keep in mind that these cell phone games and apps are designed to run with the most available handsets in the market. Developers are not going to waste time and money on apps that very few people will buy because very few people have the highest spec'd phone. I hate when i see another weak android device hit the market. I wish alll android phones now had a minimum standard. But they dont and they wont. So development will continue to make sure no one is excluded from possibly buying their apps.

I wish games and apps were running at the higher resolution of the EVO, Inc, ect. But it seems like most apps are iphone ports and they run at iphone resolutions. Maybe in a few years the apps will be better. The iphone 4 new screen should help us. But our problem on android is also going to be app storage space. Iphone developers can make bigger file sizes because the iphone4 can store 16-32 gigs of apps on the phone. Froyo should help some. But it will take time for us to be playing the hd games in large quantity.

But for now i dont see any games or apps that run better on the Incredible than on the EVO. If FPS were not limited on the software side then wouldnt we be seeing a difference between the Inc and the EVO in games like homerun derby 3d?

You might need to invest in a decent pair of glasses as the difference from 30 to 60 to 120hz was all very clear to my eyes. You probably wont notice any difference on a console playing on a 60hz TV vs 120, because most games are designed to run at 60FPS.

Your whole argument is still flawed. I have a game for the Xbox 360 that was encoded to run at 30FPS; it's NHL 2007. The next year they released NHL 2008 and it ran at 60FPS and the difference was so glaringly evident, it was like night and day.

One day after playing the 08 @ 60FPS version for a few months, I decided to pop in 07 @ 30FPS just to mess around and find out what it was like playing the older version again, when I hopped into a game I initially thought my Xbox was on the verge of getting the Red Ring of Death until I remembered the game runs at 30FPS.

When I first ran Homerun Battle 3D, I immediately noticed there was an issue. I didn't know exactly what, so I just attributed it to the Sense UI being a resource hog, because my older Moto Droid ran the game a lot smoother. But of course now we know.
 
I think all the people saying things here about our eyes not being able to see differences over 24fps or 30fps are either from HTC secretly trying to sabotage this topic and get us off of it so they don't have to do anything, or they're technologically illiterate.
 
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