All Things GPS

[robo21]

Dear Robo21, I don't know why you are thanking wildblue. He shows 10 satelites, and zero are fixed in, not 9. Only sats with asterisks are locked in. Which explains his 19 meter accuracy, which is about 63 ft.

There is an entire discussion about this at xda developers where some developers are suggesting it is infact hardware. You see his phone is seeing 10 sats, and using them that is how he gets 63 ft poor accuracy, but he has no definitive locks. The developers are suggesting something about using the sats its sees, but getting no locks, and something about buffers. I don't know its too technical for me to understand. In short the phone is "kinda" using the sats it sees, but theres a buffering problem or something, and it can't get a deffinate lock.

The proof is infront of your eyes, there are no locked on sats, and accuracy is 63 ft, I don't know why you continue to thank him as if he proved all of us wrong.

Today when I run the native gps test my phone is seeing 11 sats, with 1 locked in asterisk, and my accuracy is 160+ ft.

Apparantly the phone is using the sats in view, picking them up momentarily to gain momentary information from the sats, but never forms a stable lock, something about buffers, I don't understand my self.

Again, he has NO LOCKED IN SATS, zero not nine.

The reason I'm thanking him is that he has offered yet another means of establishing that the Vibrant is seeing and locking birds. In no way am I denying that you are having abhorrent performance on your Vibrant with GPS. Furthermore, he MUST have at least 2 locked birds or he wouldn't get a location on his Google Maps. Are you trying to say I don't have any locked birds, if you are you are DEAD WRONG.

You seem to be intent on denying that anyone else's experience with this unit is relevent.

All I'm saying is the following:
1) Some of us are able to navigate with the Vibrant 100% of the time.
2) Some us are able to get a precise location of the Vibrant on Google Maps.
3) The GPS Test and native Vibrant GPS tests' accuracy estimates take a backseat to real world tests i.e. using Google Maps.
4) In NO way am I trying to invalidate your experience with your unit.
5) I have NEVER tried to prove you or anyone else wrong. I'm just sharing my experience with my unit and pointing to those who have similar real-world results as I have.
6) Apparently this is why you and one other on this forum have adopted an adversarial and argumentative tone with me, you must think I'm out to "prove you wrong" in your experience with your unit's GPS. Not so. However, I do think some of your conclusions are wrong especially in generalizing from a small sample and your conclusions related to the testing software.

Please Sammy, don't take this personally. We should have a reasonable and open minded discussion here. That's the intrinsic purpose of these forums. Not to argue or play one upmanship. I told you many posts ago that I acknowledge the serious problems you are having with your GPS - Remember? It was just after I posted the screenshots of my GPS Test results for you and Robinelli.

Yet you continually try to prove me wrong by saying that MY GPS is not as accurate as I think it is based on stupid estimates from GPS Test all the while the accuracy as demonstrated by using the GPS with Google Maps is precise to within inches. (Note: that would be impossible with no locked satellites)

So let's be reasonable and keep an open dialogue here, share information and keep after Samsung to improve the GPS for all, but especially you and others with similar deficiencies.

 

[chrisinsocalif]

How? Google has stopped sales of nexus one unless you are a registered developer...then you can only purchase via brighstar.

Visit... Nexus One Phone all the info is the

Or visit Availability in your country : Place an order - Nexus One Help

A developer license is only 25 dollars, I will get one then buy the phone. Simple.

 

[chocobosandwich]

Just because its phandroid doesn't mean you have to act like a phan. Can people stop acting like children in these forums? Nothing is black and white or cut and dry and at the end of the day it is just a stink'n phone. A vendetta on a phone is just pathetic, like my crusade against sour tasting Miracle Whip. I'd make a great moderator because I'd ban over half of the people in the phandroid community.

 

[chrisinsocalif]

How many people think its a firmware problem and how many people think its a software? I have read arguments for both sides. I really like this phone but I work in real estate and need the GPS.

 

[fjweinbk]

When I have the wireless off and press "my location" it's not able to find my location, is that normal. And for the past couple days I used my NAV, it'll give me LOCAL instead of HIGHWAY which is ******ed. When I used to have my G1 there were lil glitches where when I press "my location" it'll give me somewhere in Ohio but NAV worked fine. If I wanted to do the "Fix" that everyone is talking about, do I have to "root" my phone?

 

[VegasTouch]

No, you can still buy it.

No you cant. Neither link has it for the USA. Good luck with that.

 

[VegasTouch]

How many people think its a firmware problem and how many people think its a software? I have read arguments for both sides. I really like this phone but I work in real estate and need the GPS.

I hope it is a software problem is all i can say. I dont use it often but always nice to have it work when you need it to.

 

[wildblue]

How many people think its a firmware problem and how many people think its a software? I have read arguments for both sides. I really like this phone but I work in real estate and need the GPS.

I've been doing some additional testing that indicates to me that the HW is at least capable of working very well. This afternoon I've been getting consistently fast locks with error ranges around 20 ft or less. I've set all my GPS settings back to original, and using "standalone" rather than "custom", and it's working extremely well. However, if you read the XDA forums it appears getting good performance for a while is no guarantee it will keep working as well for days or weeks without lapsing back into inconsistency. My suspicion is it's SW, but I've worked in SW development and HW troubleshooting on computer systems for many years, and without knowing much more about the internals it's impossible to know what the real issues are right now. Here's a GPS Test sample for those who trust it (the internal test shows the same # of sats being used and accuracy).

I'll keep testing over the next few days and report back with any info that seems helpful.

fjweinbk - most of the so called "fixes" do not require rooting your phone. Some people have loaded alternate ROMs that they claim fix the GPS issues, and that does require rooting, but most of the published settings changes do not.

 

[robo21]

When I have the wireless off and press "my location" it's not able to find my location, is that normal. And for the past couple days I used my NAV, it'll give me LOCAL instead of HIGHWAY which is ******ed. When I used to have my G1 there were lil glitches where when I press "my location" it'll give me somewhere in Ohio but NAV worked fine. If I wanted to do the "Fix" that everyone is talking about, do I have to "root" my phone?

It is not normal. You should get your location anywhere from seconds to around a minute or so. I'm curious though, are you trying this indoors or outdoors?

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Slowly everyones remorse period is coming to an end, and there is no fix, and seems like T-mobile and At&t are telling customers "sorry no extension to your remorse." I'm starting to wonder if this is even software, or something more troublesome like hardware.
Stop the online rants, instead rant to your carrier and samsung directly, have your voice heard!

I suggest everyone call your carrier, dial 611, report the problem to tech support.

Then dial samsung at: Make sure to make a trouble ticket and get the ticket number.
1-888-987-4357, Mon-Fri: 7 AM - 9 PM (CST), Sat: 9 AM - 6 PM (CST).

Then visit:
twitter.com/samsungservice
and voice your concern that a fix is still not available and remorse periods are almost ending. You don't want to be stuck in a 2yr contract with a defective phone.

The twitter page just keeps apologizing to customers, without giving any answers. We have no clue if its software or hardware, we are left in the dark.

If all else fails, return this product so they know we mean business.
Please don't pass up the opportunity to be proactive, and have your voice heard.

 

[fjweinbk]

It is not normal. You should get your location anywhere from seconds to around a minute or so. I'm curious though, are you trying this indoors or outdoors?

Both cases actually.

I just did the "fix" and hoping on the drive home can see some improvement but no luck. Gave me another local route, and I had to reposition myself after losing signal. SIGH!

 

[robo21]

Both cases actually.

I just did the "fix" and hoping on the drive home can see some improvement but no luck. Gave me another local route, and I had to reposition myself after losing signal. SIGH!

I would exchange this one for another myself.

 

[fjweinbk]

I would exchange this one for another myself.

funny thing is that this is my second one. not too confident if replacement will be any better. i love this phone and would mind waiting for a real fix if there is one. so if anyone from samsung is reading this, help us please.

 

[kbohip]

I've been doing some additional testing that indicates to me that the HW is at least capable of working very well. This afternoon I've been getting consistently fast locks with error ranges around 20 ft or less. I've set all my GPS settings back to original, and using "standalone" rather than "custom", and it's working extremely well. However, if you read the XDA forums it appears getting good performance for a while is no guarantee it will keep working as well for days or weeks without lapsing back into inconsistency. My suspicion is it's SW, but I've worked in SW development and HW troubleshooting on computer systems for many years, and without knowing much more about the internals it's impossible to know what the real issues are right now. Here's a GPS Test sample for those who trust it (the internal test shows the same # of sats being used and accuracy).

The results above (and similar results I've had) are why I think this is a software problem instead of hardware. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but if it was a hardware problem I don't think the phone would be seeing the sats at all would it? It looks to me that the phone can "see" the sats, and get good signals from them to boot, it just for whatever reason won't "use" them.

Of course I'm just a user of the phone. It would be really nice to hear something a little more concrete from Samsung on this issue.

 

[the1who]

I would agree with your observation.

Speaking on aviation terms and GPS, Garmin has made many software fixes and it has addressed many issues not just in aviation but in personal GPS units. They were all done by software.

If the receiver can see it, than the hardware is working. I would say it is more of a driver/firmware issue when it comes to getting the data on the chip to lock.

One thing I always advise our customers in aviation is to wait until it acquires your location before you begin moving. This includes the latest aviation GPS units, but some older units would take a near 10 minutes to acquire, and that doesn't include if they lost the atlas information.

It appears to me from reading on other forums that the phone gets this atlas information from a network source as well as providing a rough location to work with. The phone should be more like Garmin in a way if it is going to use GPS. It appears that the cause when we stop using and then use again is that the atlas information isn't present, hence while it will take longer to acquire. It will have to reacquire the information from the signals it is receiving and rebuild the atlas information on the phone. To me, it is receiving but not interpreting the signals. When the GPS locks on one, it has a sense based on the time of the phone and the current signals coming at it of where the other satellites are and what their signals should look like in the data stream. If they don't look right according to what the chip is looking for, they will never lock on. Hence probably why there is so much trouble.

I don't know how to get this GPS test app yet, still looking, I'll probably find here shortly. Unlike anyone here most likely, maybe a few, working at the airport we have a GPS repeater in our hangar. This repeater increases the signal about 45db total. We have the re-radiating amp, an in-line amp, and the receiver amp in the antenna. They are rated about 15 db each. It is enough to push the signal across an open hangar to our side with the avionics shop to perform tests of equipment in the hangar. I'll run the app within the hangar where I have stronger signal levels than most civilians have access to and give a report. And then I'll go outside and do the same thing. I'll have two different locations for sure because the spot where the antenna is on the roof is where the repeater inside locates all units receiving it through the repeater.

There will probably be a long conversation for sure, not with this forum alone, but abroad, until there is some official explanation or update. But from what I have read and dealing with GPS in an everyday work environment at the avionics shop I work at, it is most likely the case that the interpretations are a muck and only a few sats get a lock. At a Garmin class I went to, they said there was only like 24 satellites and that their receivers only picked up like 12 at a time, I have watched the receivers lock on 3d diff nav up to at least 14-16 sats on the status page, that's for WAAS units where the precision is more important. For the BMC4751 chip that has been reported in another forum, one can only assume that we can expect at least 3-4 sure locks, the others are just helping increase the accuracy. 4 or more provides 3d positioning.

Garmin | What is GPS?

On this link, they say 24 to 32 satellites are in use, Garmin only states 24, which is fair enough. In this link also is an animation that Garmin presented with the class, it shows that at any given point you can't see more than 12 satellites, but like I stated above, I have seen on their GNS430W/530W units, lock on 14-16 and now I want to count it again when I get back to work tomorrow.

Global Positioning System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope this helps. Summary, it seems to be the atlas/interpretation mechanisms that are being used that are causing problems. People's exaggerated *lock time issues may have been augmented by their urgency to rush and not let satellites acquire to help in the lock of another satellite. GPS is looking for a data train, when you move, you are changing that data train consistently.

Edited to clear up what issue was exaggerated

Found app, will try at work inside (repeater) and outside for comparison.

 

[Mark27]

I would agree with your observation.

Speaking on aviation terms and GPS, Garmin has made many software fixes and it has addressed many issues not just in aviation but in personal GPS units. They were all done by software.

If the receiver can see it, than the hardware is working. I would say it is more of a driver/firmware issue when it comes to getting the data on the chip to lock.

One thing I always advise our customers in aviation is to wait until it acquires your location before you begin moving. This includes the latest aviation GPS units, but some older units would take a near 10 minutes to acquire, and that doesn't include if they lost the atlas information.

It appears to me from reading on other forums that the phone gets this atlas information from a network source as well as providing a rough location to work with. The phone should be more like Garmin in a way if it is going to use GPS. It appears that the cause when we stop using and then use again is that the atlas information isn't present, hence while it will take longer to acquire. It will have to reacquire the information from the signals it is receiving and rebuild the atlas information on the phone. To me, it is receiving but not interpreting the signals. When the GPS locks on one, it has a sense based on the time of the phone and the current signals coming at it of where the other satellites are and what their signals should look like in the data stream. If they don't look right according to what the chip is looking for, they will never lock on. Hence probably why there is so much trouble.

I don't know how to get this GPS test app yet, still looking, I'll probably find here shortly. Unlike anyone here most likely, maybe a few, working at the airport we have a GPS repeater in our hangar. This repeater increases the signal about 45db total. We have the re-radiating amp, an in-line amp, and the receiver amp in the antenna. They are rated about 15 db each. It is enough to push the signal across an open hangar to our side with the avionics shop to perform tests of equipment in the hangar. I'll run the app within the hangar where I have stronger signal levels than most civilians have access to and give a report. And then I'll go outside and do the same thing. I'll have two different locations for sure because the spot where the antenna is on the roof is where the repeater inside locates all units receiving it through the repeater.

There will probably be a long conversation for sure, not with this forum alone, but abroad, until there is some official explanation or update. But from what I have read and dealing with GPS in an everyday work environment at the avionics shop I work at, it is most likely the case that the interpretations are a muck and only a few sats get a lock. At a Garmin class I went to, they said there was only like 24 satellites and that their receivers only picked up like 12 at a time, I have watched the receivers lock on 3d diff nav up to at least 14-16 sats on the status page, that's for WAAS units where the precision is more important. For the BMC4751 chip that has been reported in another forum, one can only assume that we can expect at least 3-4 sure locks, the others are just helping increase the accuracy. 4 or more provides 3d positioning.

Garmin | What is GPS?

On this link, they say 24 to 32 satellites are in use, Garmin only states 24, which is fair enough. In this link also is an animation that Garmin presented with the class, it shows that at any given point you can't see more than 12 satellites, but like I stated above, I have seen on their GNS430W/530W units, lock on 14-16 and now I want to count it again when I get back to work tomorrow.

Global Positioning System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope this helps. Summary, it seems to be the atlas/interpretation mechanisms that are being used that are causing problems. People's exaggerated *lock time issues may have been augmented by their urgency to rush and not let satellites acquire to help in the lock of another satellite. GPS is looking for a data train, when you move, you are changing that data train consistently.

Edited to clear up what issue was exaggerated

Found app, will try at work inside (repeater) and outside for comparison.

Do you live in Wichita?

 

[wildblue]

Just tried GPS again after letting the device sit over night and it got a lock and good accuracy (20 ft) in about a minute. Subsequent acquisitions have been between seconds or up to a minute. Map location is excellent. Works with wi-fi on or off. So far these settings are working the best for me in terms of GPS functionality, and not causing any other phone symptoms, like hangs or pauses, that I've seen with some other settings variations.

- Settings > Location and Security > turn off "Use wireless networks"

*#*#1472365#*#*

Application settings
Session Type: Tracking
Test Mode: S/W Test
Operation Mode: Standalone
Start Mode: Hot start
GPS Plus: On
Dynamic Accuracy: On
Accuracy: 50
SkyHook: Off
PC Tool: Off

SUPL/CP Settings
Server FQDN Type: Custom
Server: www.spirent-lcs.com
Server Port: 7275
SUPL Secure Socket: On
AGPS Mode: SUPL

- Back button out of setup
- Power off/on
- Turn on "Use wireless networks"

I'm pretty sure those are the standard setup. I've made numerous changes the last week, so I'm listing all of the settings so you can compare. The only other thing I had done early on was select the "Delete GPS Data" option.

Something else I noticed, if I cup my hand under the top half of the phone all the GPS signal levels drop significantly, then pop up again if I move my hand away. This is easily seen in GPS Test, and very reproducible. Just an FYI.

Only time will tell if this performance level continues. Also, there may well be HW or SW variations between phones that could account for varying experiences. With so much riding on this phone working I'm still optimistic Samsung will get it resolved.

 

[Robinelli]

Are you saying you need to leave GPS -ON- all of the time? Just asking b/c that is a big battery drain.

 

[wildblue]

Are you saying you need to leave GPS -ON- all of the time? Just asking b/c that is a big battery drain.

I've tried it both ways, meaning turning it on and off as needed, and leaving it on all the time, and the GPS performance has been the same so far. I left if off over night and got a quick good lock this morning, so I don't see that as a factor in performance.

Regarding the battery usage, I've had the GPS set to ON for about 3.5 hours this morning, run a number of location checks, but am not constantly using navigation or other location apps, and my battery is at 93%. So, just having it on, and not actually using the GPS function does not appear to be a big drain with these settings.

 

[chrisinsocalif]

No you cant. Neither link has it for the USA. Good luck with that.

Will be no problem to purchase for the USA, just need a developers license. It's fairly easy.


As for the GPS, I am guessing the coding is bad for the communication between the GPS chip and the CPU. Some users in forums say the broadcom Chip was install incorrectly on the Galaxy S causing the problem. It seems the Vibrant can detect the Satellites just cant lock on. So I sway myself more toward software where something is being lost between chip and CPU which results in a dropped signal.
The Galaxy S(world) was released weeks before the vibrant and exhibits the GPS problem, so Samsung must have been aware of this before the vibrant. Since its been a while before a patch, I am afraid it will be more complicated than just a simple firmware update. I sure hope it will be fixed cause i don't see a comparable kickass T-mobile phone like this in their lineup anytime soon (that doesn't have a keyboard.) If there is another phone in T-mobiles lineup that doesn't have a physical keyboard and comparable to this or the N1, please let me know.

 

[robo21]

.....I sure hope it will be fixed cause i don't see a comparable kickass T-mobile phone like this in their lineup anytime soon (that doesn't have a keyboard.) If there is another phone in T-mobiles lineup that doesn't have a physical keyboard and comparable to this or the N1, please let me know.

You got that right! I talked to the Tmobile store manager where I got my Vibrant (he and the asst. mgr both have Vibrants) and he said there really is nothing that will compare to the Vibrant now. There may be something in late 4Q/2010. Meanwhile he also said that he is very confident the 1st update will improve the GPS etc.

 

[tcwong]

funny thing is that this is my second one. not too confident if replacement will be any better. i love this phone and would mind waiting for a real fix if there is one. so if anyone from samsung is reading this, help us please.

I have the same problem. The location is not updated or not available. Passed my 14 days period already with this phone.

 

[the1who]

Do you live in Wichita?

No, up in Olathe area.

 

[the1who]

Child sick today, may get over there today when others have left to try the GPS repeater. But will have to wait for another day at least for now.

 

[spiz]

No, up in Olathe area.

Nice... you mentioned something about aviation. Do you work at the FAA there in Olathe? I went to school at Mid-America Nazarene and will be moving back there at the end of Aug.

Anyways, how are the 3G speeds in the area? Pretty excited to be in a place that has 3G... been using Edge for the past couple of years.