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Apple suing HTC

Regarding the patent lawsuit, I did some research. Now, I'm not an expert in patent law. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Jk, but I have hand an mixed grad/undergrad class in computer law, with a heavy emphasis on patent law. I checked out the article breaking down each patent's details, and it seems like the large majority are OS level issues (as we've discussed already). While this may seem like a good thing to some, as it SHOULD be fixable, it is actually quite bad. First of all, reading through the patents, they are SO generic, they really ought not have been granted in the first place. Sadly, the USPTO isn't exactly known for having programmers and software engineers sitting around. Patents like these are the reason there is a MASSIVE suit that could result in software and business methods being unpatentable. That aside, I'll explain why these OS level claims are such a big problem.

Likely these will fail in the suit against HTC. Why is that bad? Well, the court will likely say that HTC is not responsible for implementing the OS, Google is for coding it in an infringing manner (and with these patents, its a wonder WinMo and every other operating system, mobile or otherwise, isn't being sued). Apple will use this to proceed with a case against Google, citing the prior ruling/recommendation for support, and depending on the ultimate ruling, even using it as case law. Apple will seek an injunction against Google, and if they get it, EVERY Android user and manufacturer with plans to use Android will suffer. MS saw a similar result when they were temporarily banned from selling recent versions of Office due to the XML infringement. If the injunction is granted, there will be no new Android phones from any manufacturer, no OTA updates (maybe), no OS updates (unless they are a rework from the ground up or they opt to pay massive royalties), and possibly other unforeseen consequences. Now, patent litigation take a$$loads of time and money, both of which Google and Apple have. However, an injunction would be strong pressure for Google to settle and modify the OS. Some of those patents are....well....impossible to get around. Nokia, Microsoft, and (I think) RIM are having to deal with these in other suits. That means royalty payments. Ouch. This is a huge problem. The Incredible should hit shelves long before this is resolved, unless they somehow get the injunction against HTC. It might still slip in though. It will, though, likely affect updates to our beloved phone and may result in the Bob-Barkerizing of certain aspects of our phones in the distant future.

Phew, that's all I've got for now. Time to go back to my Psychology studies. Dang tests getting in the way of my forum time....

Edit: There's a reason I dropped out of the Computer Science department here. My coding skills are horrendous. I say the patents are impossible to get around, but honestly, I'm likely wrong. They just SEEM that way to me.

Originally posted on the Incredible forum, redirected here.
 
I remember when my uncle was filing a patent for some of his software breakthroughs, he had to really detail out exactly what he was patenting, it seems to me Apples are so generic, they got a pass by the US Patent office. Makes me wonder if anyone even read the patent material.
 
Yami,

That's some pretty good insight, and it may very well play out the way you suggest. That being said (and I am not a patent lawyer either), I disagree with this:

YamiYaiba said:
Well, the court will likely say that HTC is not responsible for implementing the OS, Google is for coding it in an infringing manner (and with these patents, its a wonder WinMo and every other operating system, mobile or otherwise, isn't being sued). Apple will use this to proceed with a case against Google, citing the prior ruling/recommendation for support, and depending on the ultimate ruling, even using it as case law
Click to expand...

Generally, for an order or ruling from the case against HTC to have any effect against Google, Google would have to be a party to the original lawsuit against HTC. This is so that Google will not suffer the effects of an order or judgment without the opportunity to put on evidence or be heard. So, even if Apple is successful against HTC, it will have to start over from square one in a lawsuit against Google.

Now, Apple could still amend their lawsuit to name Google as a defendant, and even if it doesn't, it may still be successful in pursuing Google in separate litigation. That success would just have to be derived from evidence presented in a hearing where Google was provided an opportunity to defend its self; a task that may not be as easy as taking on little old HTC.

Either way, if HTC and especially Google are eventually found to have violated Apple's patent rights, the scenario you paint could very well come to pass, and all of us Android users could be seriously fuc%&*.
 
DroidAV8R said:
Yami,

That's some pretty good insight, and it may very well play out the way you suggest. That being said (and I am not a patent lawyer either), I disagree with this:



Generally, for an order or ruling from the case against HTC to have any effect against Google, Google would have to be a party to the original lawsuit against HTC. This is so that Google will not suffer the effects of an order or judgment without the opportunity to put on evidence or be heard. So, even if Apple is successful against HTC, it will have to start over from square one in a lawsuit against Google.

Now, Apple could still amend their lawsuit to name Google as a defendant, and even if it doesn't, it may still be successful in pursuing Google in separate litigation. That success would just have to be derived from evidence presented in a hearing where Google was provided an opportunity to defend its self; a task that may not be as easy as taking on little old HTC.

Either way, if HTC and especially Google are eventually found to have violated Apple's patent rights, the scenario you paint could very well come to pass, and all of us Android users could be seriously fuc%&*.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean the court order would have authority against Google. Rulings in cases are often cited in similar cases. I simply meant that Apple's lawyers would cite rulings in HTC's case as support in their future case against Google.
 
sooper_droid12 said:
No it's because HTC doesn't innovate. They just steal tech. HTC deserves what they get and I hope Apple bleeds them dry. For how many of the 20 or so infringements, Apple needs to be compensated for the legitimate ones. For the most part, this doesn't affect our DROIDs. It might affect the operation of Android. We may not see P2Z after all. And the CoolIris gallery app (from 2.1) might be pulled. Those are two things I know are in violation of Apple patents. If Google plays it safe and Motorola too, they'll make sure the next update will be in compliance. Nexus One is actually one of the exhibits in the lawsuit. Google phone will likely die as a result of this case.
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I will need to defend htc, they will be the victor. Phuck apple they can go to hell and get compensation of crap in their faces.
 
Apple is making theirselves look so pathetic right now. I would love to see google pull its support of maps and other apps from the iphone. HTC should. Just implement the circle with ONE finger to zoom feature. That is so much nicer and more precise than the p2z bs. Apple has never been able to keep control of a market (other MP3 players) that they weren't the only player in. Apple makes me sick, considering the iphones age it isn't even that innovative look how quickly google and htc put them on the ropes and releasing superior software/hardware. It amazes me how slowly apple has released basic features on such an innovative device. Open source and choice will always beat the closed mindness of jobs. Jobs enjoys telling his fanclub what they need and don't need. As for me I'll think for myself.
 
Karma is a cold hearted b!tch

So much for HTC threatening to sue the guy from Beautiful Widgets ;)
 
I like how one of the patents basically covers the minimize animation in Windows. Also the swipe to unlock on the Palm's WebOS is a violation as well. As are all Operating Systems out there right now for one patent or another. Apple is pathetic.
 
I've been lurking for a month or so, and I finally decided to join and post.

I saw this article from BusinessWeek (apologies if is a duplicate, I read the thread but did not see it). I don't know how accurate their percentages are as they cite a single source, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Apple's Smartphone Battle Plan [NewsWeek]

I'm holding out for the HTC Incredible (purchased an Eris for the financee). I do use Apple products (desktop, laptop, and an iPod Touch), but I tell everyone that these Android phones are the best devices I've ever used. I prefer her Eris to my iPod Touch (albeit without the phone component). It's honestly just a better device and platform. I've developed applications for the iPhone/iPod Touch, and I'm just starting Android development. I hands-down prefer developing for the Android OS.

Apple just seems to be getting so cocky lately. It's annoying, even from a long-time proponent of their products and a current user.
 
Any thoughts on this lawsuit and the leaked 2.1? Makes sense it would be leaked because Verizon is afraid to roll it out because of this lawsuit.
 
Apple are now pulling some apps from their store, starting with any app that actively sniffs wifi hotspots.

Trying to avoid any patent claims against them?
 
YamiYaiba said:
I didn't mean the court order would have authority against Google. Rulings in cases are often cited in similar cases. I simply meant that Apple's lawyers would cite rulings in HTC's case as support in their future case against Google.
Click to expand...

I do understand what you meant. I just disagree with it. Generally, a party to litigation cannot cite fact based rulings that were made in prior litigation that does not involve the same parties. Those prior rulings would have no binding effect on the new litigation, and thus would be irrelevant and inadmissible (not to mention, it would likely pi$$ the judge off to no end by implying that another judge ruled prior, and thus the new judge must follow).

There certainly is a vast body of published case law which would be authoritative on many issues that might come up in this litigation. Those cases, however, have a more general application (i.e., in a case with facts similar to this one, it is proper/improper to grant or deny a specific type of motion, or to admit or exclude certain evidence).

Apple may very well be able to prove patent violations by HTC and Google. All I'm saying is that if they attempt to prove patent violations against Google in separate litigation, Apple will not get the benefit in that litigation of favorable rulings obtained against HTC.


I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to shed some light on our complex litigation system and how the process might work out as this litigation progresses. As I said earlier, I'm no patent lawyer. What I did not tell you earlier, though, is that I did graduate from a top-25 law school and practice law for a number of years. So, I do have a general idea as to how our legal system works.
 
Google won't be sued, the reason Apple is suing HTC is because they are the biggest Android device manufacturer! Google makes an open source code and gives licenses to manufacturers, they make no money from it. The point of Android is to have control of the mobile market and in turn most importantly to Google, the ADS! A lot of these patents may be ruled null and void as well.
 
DroidAV8R said:
I do understand what you meant. I just disagree with it. Generally, a party to litigation cannot cite fact based rulings that were made in prior litigation that does not involve the same parties. Those prior rulings would have no binding effect on the new litigation, and thus would be irrelevant and inadmissible (not to mention, it would likely pi$$ the judge off to no end by implying that another judge ruled prior, and thus the new judge must follow).

There certainly is a vast body of published case law which would be authoritative on many issues that might come up in this litigation. Those cases, however, have a more general application (i.e., in a case with facts similar to this one, it is proper/improper to grant or deny a specific type of motion, or to admit or exclude certain evidence).

Apple may very well be able to prove patent violations by HTC and Google. All I'm saying is that if they attempt to prove patent violations against Google in separate litigation, Apple will not get the benefit in that litigation of favorable rulings obtained against HTC.


I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to shed some light on our complex litigation system and how the process might work out as this litigation progresses. As I said earlier, I'm no patent lawyer. What I did not tell you earlier, though, is that I did graduate from a top-25 law school and practice law for a number of years. So, I do have a general idea as to how our legal system works.
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Lol, no offense taken. I'm a lowly undergrad, so I'll trust your knowledge over mind.
 
I think google should just block all iPhones from connecting to google.com and any other of google's services (don't ask me how, but it'd be funny) until apple decides they're willing to play nice :D
 
The best possible outcome to this, is a ruling that all of these patents are dismissed, because they are too general.
 
Doesn't Nortel own the rights to the "iphone" name?

Google should buy Nortel, and then demand that they couldn't use the name anymore
 
Now maybe McDonalds will sue Tim Hortons for making their patented coffee too! Where does it end?

Really Apple is suing HTC because Steve Jobs is so nervous about how many devices are supporting the android OS.

Wow the finger swipe I didn't know you could patent that! Cool! Which finger or would that be 10 separate patents?
 
pkopalek said:
The problem is, that it's EXACTLY about patenting ideas.

I hate to be behind Apple, but they missed this boat when they let Windows go 20+ years ago, without suing.

They've invented virtually the ENTIRETY of the ideas relating to how we interface with computers and our Android phones.

That being said, those are VERY broad ideas to patent. The problem isn't that they don't deserve a patent, some of them, for being so broad, but that the patent office DID issue them legal patents. That's the problem.
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Actually Apple stole all those great ideas from Xerox back in 1970 so they couldn't have sued Microsoft if they had wanted to. Xerox PARC came up with all Apples supposed inventions like the GUI and mouse. Apple was just the first to use them in a pc but they did not invent anything. Steve Jobs had actually visited Xerox PARC at the time he and Woz were developing their first computer and then took the ideas they saw there and made them their own. Same thing with touch screens, someone else came up with it before Apple ever thought of it.
 
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