8-Bit-Soldier
Android Enthusiast
Motorola confirms that locked bootloaders aren't going anywhere | PhoneDog
Sorry to hear that
HTC FTW
Sorry to hear that
HTC FTW
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Bootloader Locked? Yup.
- Thread starter 8-Bit-Soldier
- Start date
8-Bit-Soldier
Android Enthusiast
things may be looking better
why do they want the phone locked up so tight? what is there stance on this? is it to protect the Blur source code? what gives? its hard to understand why they do this when you look at HTC products that compete in the same space and have been building android phones longer than anyone.
HTC is not so worried about their software getting hacked up, or users bricking their own phones. They have been one of the closest partners with Google and Android and were the first to get the Nexus deal (Nexus One) which is supposed to be Google's biggest developer phone. They believe in allowing user customization, as long as they don't release their source code for Sense then their are no problems. Nothing a CnD order can't fix anyways. I'll bet Motorola will never get a deal from Google to make a Nexus phone (I'm sure is the only reason Samsung got the next deal :/).
djkeller3
Android Enthusiast
What you are saying is true... however...
There are full-blown ROMs out there - like CyanogenMod - that are the elite of the elite of ROMs that require custom kernels. If the bootloader is locked down, you are stuck with that kernel (and the same version of Android that the phone came with) until such time that Motorola decides to update it. And when or IF they do decide to update it, you will have to root all over again once our developers find a new exploit.
I don't know about others here, but I want to run the ROMs I want, when I want. If I'm running Froyo with Gingerbread ROMs all around me, I don't want to *wait and see* IF Motorola decides to - ho-hum - update my kernel so I can flash Gingerbread, or Ice Cream, or whatever the next Android version is.
And let's face it, ROMs that access system levels are just, well... BETTER ROMS!! If the bootloader is locked, forget about accessing system levels.
While it's too early to tell yet what Motorola will do with the Bionic in terms of bootloader encryption, but if they do it, I will be putting an HTC product in my pocket. Of that you can be sure.
This has been discussed in so many other threads. It doesn't matter that it can be rooted and "kind of" overclocked. You still can't run anything that isn't based off of 2.2 blur roms, you will never get an Android update unless Moto pushes it to you, you can't run true AOSP roms, you cannot get modified kernels (overclocking isn't the only thing that can be done to the kernel). A locked bootloader is simply no good. end of story.
Now now, Moto refuted the post from their employee so now we will see a "kinder, gentler locked bootloader"
Yea. I would just have to wait til after release to see how they implement it and what kind of restrictions are still present.
djkeller3
Android Enthusiast
What you are saying is true, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. The vast majority of smartphone users are not the least bit technical, and as you say, only a very small percentage of users will mod their phones at all, and even fewer will want full unlocked access. So if it's such an insignificant number, the case could be made for just leaving the boot-loaders unlocked, since they will not make money (or lose money) on our behalf anyway. No one really benefits from locked boot-loaders, but they do make people angry, and it does alienate a portion of their customer base, even if it is small compared to the non-technical majority.
They gain by not having people wanting to return phones for doing something they shouldn't. Im not saying you shiuldnt, but there are plenty if people that would try, even though they shouldn't. I'm not saying it is the best business practice, but it isn't like the only reason they do it is out of spite to the minority. Better beleive they have had a lot of really smart people talk about this, and better beleive they still have a lot of really smart people still talking about this.
krouget
Android Enthusiast
If this is the logic, then by the same token, no money is lost, either.
At the very least, let me register my device so that I can free Motorola of any warranty liability, and I'll gladly proceed with hacking the phone I purchased, which again, is rightfully mine to do what I wish.
There is no critically justifiable reason for it, that doesn't have a more reasonable workaround.
It would be interesting to see how much Motorola would gain from embracing the developer community as opposed to blocking. Have they recovered that much from layoffs to dictate policy to the public? Hopefully HTC will show off some powerhouse phone to mitigate the Motorola "wow but locked" disappointment. Samsung looks possible but all the bad PR stories give me pause me when inking another 2 year deal.
Nevertheless:
unlocked = possible next phone
locked, gently worded locked, might be unlocked, working with carriers but still locked = no sale, no recommending posts / stories.
Nevertheless:
unlocked = possible next phone
locked, gently worded locked, might be unlocked, working with carriers but still locked = no sale, no recommending posts / stories.
YankeeDudeL
Android Expert
You'd think that the original Droid should have been all they needed to see that this was an idea worth embracing, as the popularity of the device truly propelled Android forward. First, they implement MotoBlur, which doesn't get well received, then they lock bootloaders. Annoying.
krouget
Android Enthusiast
Right, we're on the same page, but if this meant the hacking/dev community would have access to an unlocked bootloader, via Motorola, why not? It would save everyone the headache.
The opposite and unfortunate reality, is that we still have to contend with bypasses/limitations for the locked bootloader, while being out of a warranty once the attempt is made, successful or not. As Yankee stated, given the success of the Droid, it's just really sad how unnecessary this course of action is.
While the original droid was embraced by the dev community, the dev community was still a minority. And, flashing roms does not make you part of the dev community. I wonder how many origibal droids were returned because people were doing something they didn't know how to do. Maybe they realized that the general masses were who they wanted to target. That being said, I hope they get the next "developer" phone.
I see the knowledge gained by embracing the developer community similar to automobile manufacturers who work with race teams to push & evolve. The htc concept phone that can run different operating systems off cartridges seems like the next step of booting multiple systems on my HD2
Android was created on the concept of Open Source. To lock the OS from development on the code is completely in direct conflict with the definition of Open Source. Hence, it makes no sense. While HTC does not release it's source code, they still allow people to modify the code and make customizations and flash ROMs etc., because that is a part of open source. To say the dev community is the minority is ridiculous, because the dev community is the reason Android was created: to allow the consumer to create and implement on their own without the need of manufacturers and creators to do it for us. Otherwise, we might as well go back to iPhones and forget about development altogether.
I dare you to search for all of the different Android development forums and check their user database. I promise you will find plenty of people that are a part of the development and some are simply consumers of the development. This community is most likely the minority by a very small amount.
^The thing about all the Android forums.....how many users have accounts on more than 1 Android forum? If we look at it from that aspect, the dev community might be even smaller...
And Moto isnt locking development of the OS. Any one of us can go to AOSP website and compile the OS. Google has 2 -3 dev phones....yea all made by HTC...lol
Hell, Moto could pull the Droid 1 card and say if you want to develop with one of our phones, use that.
HTC and the G2 issue: Remember it was looking bleak for a minute. If no one woulda unlocked it we could be talking about HTC right now too. HTC didnt allow it. Some talented folks in the dev community were just smarter than HTC.
An locked or unlocked bootloader isnt listed as a feature of any Motorola phone. It might be listed as a feature of HTC dev phones, dont really know.
And I see ppl still forget the Droid 1 being unlocked isnt why it was so popular. It was popular because:
Verizon's advertising, good hardware and good software (Android). Thats it.
Do I think they are being anal about the bootloader? Yea. I could understand HTC doing it, with Sense UI being arguably the best custom UI on Android phones. I can see that Samsung and HTC dont go to the extremes of keeping ppl out and they both enjoyed huge profits recently. So Moto doesnt have to lock the bootloader so tight. Maybe they all lock the bootloader and Moto just does a better job of it. (not really the bootloader, but see the G2 issue)
Speaking of HTC, dont forget when the Incredible came out. First it took a long time to root it, and the root method wasnt for the faint of heart. I heard its better now ...but thats another example of how HTC doesnt just allow anything on their phones.
If locking the OS from development is in direct conflict with the definition of Open Source..
Why do we have to root the phone to get access to the entire file system ? On the old Win Mo...all you needed has a file manager..
I'm just saying....is it security or conflicting with Open Source?
Every major Android manufacture has an open source download available for ppl to pick n poke away at: HTC, Motorola, Samsung, LG. They are embracing open source. Just not with certain phones.
The dev community compared to the general public is the minority. And you can create on your own. The Android SDK and emulator is available for any one to use.
AOSP website, actual dev phones by Google/HTC, the SDK and emulator. Whose standing in your way for developing?
No one.
And Moto isnt locking development of the OS. Any one of us can go to AOSP website and compile the OS. Google has 2 -3 dev phones....yea all made by HTC...lol
Hell, Moto could pull the Droid 1 card and say if you want to develop with one of our phones, use that.
HTC and the G2 issue: Remember it was looking bleak for a minute. If no one woulda unlocked it we could be talking about HTC right now too. HTC didnt allow it. Some talented folks in the dev community were just smarter than HTC.
An locked or unlocked bootloader isnt listed as a feature of any Motorola phone. It might be listed as a feature of HTC dev phones, dont really know.
And I see ppl still forget the Droid 1 being unlocked isnt why it was so popular. It was popular because:
Verizon's advertising, good hardware and good software (Android). Thats it.
Do I think they are being anal about the bootloader? Yea. I could understand HTC doing it, with Sense UI being arguably the best custom UI on Android phones. I can see that Samsung and HTC dont go to the extremes of keeping ppl out and they both enjoyed huge profits recently. So Moto doesnt have to lock the bootloader so tight. Maybe they all lock the bootloader and Moto just does a better job of it. (not really the bootloader, but see the G2 issue)
Speaking of HTC, dont forget when the Incredible came out. First it took a long time to root it, and the root method wasnt for the faint of heart. I heard its better now ...but thats another example of how HTC doesnt just allow anything on their phones.
If locking the OS from development is in direct conflict with the definition of Open Source..
Why do we have to root the phone to get access to the entire file system ? On the old Win Mo...all you needed has a file manager..
I'm just saying....is it security or conflicting with Open Source?
Every major Android manufacture has an open source download available for ppl to pick n poke away at: HTC, Motorola, Samsung, LG. They are embracing open source. Just not with certain phones.
The dev community compared to the general public is the minority. And you can create on your own. The Android SDK and emulator is available for any one to use.
AOSP website, actual dev phones by Google/HTC, the SDK and emulator. Whose standing in your way for developing?
No one.
The dev phones only work with GSM, sim-using carriers. No Sprint or Verizon love. Hence a lot of people do not want go that route or can't. Second, yea the ORIGINAL OS software is open source, the only open sourcing that Moto, HTC etc. put out is the kernel. Fine, we still found a way to make modifications to the compiled code. Yes, they do not make it easy to root the phones. No, the bootloaders are not "locked" in the sense of how Moto did it. All of the phones have a certain amount of security measures in order to keep someone from wandering where they probably should not because they will brick a phone. The reason it took so long to root the Inc was because the exploit was different from the other phones and the dev community was relatively small. The process was not necessarily difficult, just required precise timing and took a long time for a lot of us. The bootloader is not locked, it just took time to find the exploit to allow for changing the bootloader to turn sercurity off and gain full access to do anything. All of these manufacturers obviously take some security measures to keep the STANDARD consumer out, but Developers can find a way in. The incredible now has a one-click root method that takes less than a minute. Motorola went too far in that they even locked out developers from being able to gain full access to root and S-OFF. Droid X and 2 still do not have any AOSP roms, simply because of a locked bootloader that can't be worked around. So they can work with the source code all they want, but they can't do anything with it, because Moto doesn't want them too. Hence, Moto is, for the most part, against open source while other manufacturers still allow it, simply do not condone it. And while HTC stepped up the security measures, the bootloader can still be hacked into to turn security off and do whatever they want.