Bump Charge fully explained - we may have to deal with it

[bjanow]

.... It's also likely why HTC realized their FUBAR and stopped designing phones like this after the Evo/Incredible.

Sorry, but that's not true. Even my wife's old LG flip will do the same thing. I can charge it while on until it's full and then turn it off and still get a bump charge. Perhaps only 5 minutes or so but it still will take an extra charge after I turn it off. That thing is at least 3 years old. My Eris does the same thing.

 

[Medion]

Sorry, but that's not true. Even my wife's old LG flip will do the same thing. I can charge it while on until it's full and then turn it off and still get a bump charge. Perhaps only 5 minutes or so but it still will take an extra charge after I turn it off. That thing is at least 3 years old. My Eris does the same thing.

That's not a bump charge. I've explained this repeatedly. Due to the way batteries work, this will occur on almost any device. You WILL lose a residual charge when unplugged, even if it's just 0.000001%. When you plug it back in to charge, you'll get that orange/red light until the battery is topped off again. Due to resistance, that last bit of battery is a lot slower to charge.

The bump charge is due to the way the Incredible charges when turned on (software controls). Your battery could drain down to 92% and still report a green light. Unplug it and it will say full. Do a quick reboot and you'll get a more accurate reading. Put the battery in a completely different phone (like a TP2 or Eris) and you'll get an exact reading.

What you're describing is typical behavior for ANY battery. What I'm describing is the unique way in which the Incredible charges, and it has nothing to do with the battery (the battery is just collateral damage here). You're making the same misunderstanding that sdrawkcab made in my last thread. I am NOT talking about the ways batteries charge in my analysis. I am talking about the unique way in which the Incredible charges whatever it is you place into that battery slot. You can charge rainbows and sunshine for all I care, the Incredible still does it differently than any other device out there.

 

[bjanow]

I see what you are saying, but last night I had the LG plugged in to full charge. Then I turned it off without unplugging it. It charged again for about 5 or 10 minutes. That's not as long as the DI but it's still significant.
My Eris did the same thing as the Incredible does. My point is, not that you are wrong in your assessments, but the fact that you single out the DI as one of only 2 phones that do it. That is clearly not so. I'd almost be willing to argue that even a laptop will do the same thing. I simply think it's a safety feature and not something that is a design flaw.

 

[Medion]

I see what you are saying, but last night I had the LG plugged in to full charge. Then I turned it off without unplugging it. It charged again for about 5 or 10 minutes. That's not as long as the DI but it's still significant.
My Eris did the same thing as the Incredible does. My point is, not that you are wrong in your assessments, but the fact that you single out the DI as one of only 2 phones that do it. That is clearly not so. I'd almost be willing to argue that even a laptop will do the same thing. I simply think it's a safety feature and not something that is a design flaw.

Please, re-read my last post. What you are describing is typical battery behavior. From the very moment you unplug a fully charged battery, it begins to discharge. It does so at an extremely slow rate, but it still does it. Plug it back in, even immediately, and you're going to get a charge indicator. It will last for several minutes.

Think of a battery as a starving person. Put that plate of food in front of him, and he's going to wolf it down. But, as he gets fuller and fuller, he eats more slowly. That's how a battery charges. That last miniscule amount, even if it's literally an atomic amount, will take several minutes to charge.

My point is, not that you are wrong in your assessments, but the fact that you single out the DI as one of only 2 phones that do it. That is clearly not so.

If you honestly believe your statement here to be correct, then you didn't understand what I've said. And no, I'm not insulting you, as I often have a poor way of explaining my point.

The reason the Incredible behaves different than normal phones is because it literally charges differently. Your LG will charge to full, and then shut off charging, then run off AC. The Incredible will continue to run off the battery, but report a full charge. Leave them plugged in for an hour with a full charge, then unplug them. The Incredible might be at 95% because it kept running off the battery, while the LG will be at 99.9999% because it did not run off the battery. When you plug them in, the LG might need 5-10 minutes to recharge that residual loss, whereas the Incredible might need 30 minutes.

That's the difference. What you are seeing in your LG is typical residual battery loss for ANY consumer electronic device. The Incredible uses a completely different method for battery charging and operation, resulting in the need for a bump charge.

 

[bjanow]

That's fine, no worries. My Eris acted the exact same way as the DI, but maybe I'm not getting your point. Either way, a bump charge for me works for the first few hours and then I'm not quite sure. I'm beginning to think it's just for the first hour or so and then it will drop to the same level as no bump. So even though it doesn't drop as dramatically with a bump from 100% at some point it will even out. Not sure about that though. Oh well, interesting analysis anyway.

PS. Lou's kernel #4 is great.

 

[WormDoes]

I just noticed that my battery stops charging at 87%. I have to unplug/replug for it to start charging again. I'm on warm 2.2. Idk if this is ROM specific but I thought it was strange none-the-less and wanted to pass it on.

 

[dibs ODDJOB]

There is a new post over at xda with more technical data, further backing the OP. It also ends with a recommendation.

-If you are a power user who absolutely needs extra battery life, and can live with a shorter lifespan of your battery because you are going to buy a new one eventually, feel free to bump charge to get more daily battery life.

-If you are an average user, who expects the same battery to last you the life of your phone (1-3 years), you should steer clear of bump charging, since it shortens the lifespan of your battery (i.e. as time goes on, the amount of charge your battery can hold will decrease faster than if you do not bump charge).

Your battery gauge is lying to you (and it's not such a bad thing) - xda-developers

The designers chose to not fully charge your phone when plugged in for long periods, as it extends the life of your battery.

 

[euph_22]

-If you are an average user, who expects the same battery to last you the life of your phone (1-3 years), you should steer clear of bump charging, since it shortens the lifespan of your battery (i.e. as time goes on, the amount of charge your battery can hold will decrease faster than if you do not bump charge).

Or just accept that you'll have to buy a new battery at some point. Considering you can pick up a 1500mAh HTC battery for <$15 on ebay, it's really not a huge downside to trash your battery a bit faster to get more use out of it per charge. $15 once over the life of the phone is not much money (especially since everybody is paying atleast $1500 just for the service).

 

[bjanow]

Or just accept that you'll have to buy a new battery at some point. Considering you can pick up a 1500mAh HTC battery for <$15 on ebay, it's really not a huge downside to trash your battery a bit faster to get more use out of it per charge. $15 once over the life of the phone is not much money (especially since everybody is paying atleast $1500 just for the service).

+1 That's the most sense I've heard all thread.

 

[jdsingle]

Really glad I stumbled upon this thread. I'm running SkyRaider 3.5 and mine does not stay on when the battery is off. I have the 1500 from BidAllies on eBay.

Question, I am ignorant so bare with me here. I have the stock battery and the one I got off eBay. Now, I use the 1500MaH and have battery paranoia where I plug it in all the time so that I don't have barely any battery left at the end of work and then school. If the phone has battery stats, won't swapping it out with a different capacity battery cause a problem or have the phone not read the charge correctly?

@Medion, excellent work and thanks for your dedication and knowledge on this subject.

 

[bjanow]

Great idea swapping batteries. That should mitigate your battery paranoia of running out of juice. Don't worry about what it's reading, when it runs towards 30 something % just swap it. The amount of time spent worrying about it probably doesn't justify your concerns. I always keep my Bidallies at the ready when my red one is running and vise versa. Before you know it you'll have another phone.

 

[dibs ODDJOB]

Or just accept that you'll have to buy a new battery at some point. Considering you can pick up a 1500mAh HTC battery for <$15 on ebay, it's really not a huge downside to trash your battery a bit faster to get more use out of it per charge. $15 once over the life of the phone is not much money (especially since everybody is paying atleast $1500 just for the service).

Ya, I agree with you, I was just reposting the recommendation from the xda post. Realistically, if someone is advanced enough to research on the internet and find out about bump charging, they are probably apt enough to know that cheap replacement batteries can be found as well.

But people should know that bump charging can have negative effects.

 

[euph_22]

Ya, I agree with you, I was just reposting the recommendation from the xda post. Realistically, if someone is advanced enough to research on the internet and find out about bump charging, they are probably apt enough to know that cheap replacement batteries can be found as well.

But people should know that bump charging can have negative effects.

True enough.

 

[walts]

Here are some graphs that help explain what's going on.
The first, charging.jpg, shows a normal charge with the Incredible turned on. You can clearly see the reduced charging rate as the battery approaches 100%.

In bump.jpg, we start out at 100% from the previous charge. As soon as the charger is removed, the charge drops to 98%. Five minutes later it drops to 95%. The Inc is turned on with the screen off during this time. Later I begin using the Inc and the charge drops off to 87% where it remains while the screen is off but the Inc is on.

Then I turned the Inc off and charged it to 100%. I turned it on and the charge dropped to 99% immediately, bu this time it took 1 hour 10 minutes (with the screen off) to drop to 97% and another hour and 15 minutes to drop to 96%.

HTH

Walt

 

[hgoldner]

For those of you with root, there is a great app, Reboot Manager which will enable the user to set a predefined time for the unit to shut down altogether. (I haven't found any other application which will do that --- not that there aren't any, I just haven't found them.)

Since my Dinc is scheduled to run backups in the wee hours and occasionally clean up caches, I leave it on charging all night. When I get up, I immediately pull it from the charger, power it down, and reconnect it. It's usually back to green LED within thirty minutes, which is when I power it up.

Using Reboot Manager, I now set it to automatically power down an hour before I get up. That way it's already been "bumped" when I turn it on in the morning.

Highly recommended.

 

[EinZtein]

Beats the hell out of buying and using a timer. May use this for scheduled type reboots as well.

 

[hgoldner]

Beats the hell out of buying and using a timer. May use this for scheduled type reboots as well.

Absolutely. The app will reboot or power down at a specified time (or not at all, if you choose). I choose to have it shut the Dinc down instead of rebooting it.

It also has a nice widget which will give you the option of rebooting, powering down, rebooting into recovery, or restarting all apps/services. The widget includes a settings function, so unlike a lot of widgets, you can adjust function *from* the widget directly, instead of having to run the app.

No relation to developer; just a user for whom this solved the bump charge problem.

 

[bjanow]

There is a new post over at xda with more technical data, further backing the OP. It also ends with a recommendation.

-If you are a power user who absolutely needs extra battery life, and can live with a shorter lifespan of your battery because you are going to buy a new one eventually, feel free to bump charge to get more daily battery life.

-If you are an average user, who expects the same battery to last you the life of your phone (1-3 years), you should steer clear of bump charging, since it shortens the lifespan of your battery (i.e. as time goes on, the amount of charge your battery can hold will decrease faster than if you do not bump charge).

Your battery gauge is lying to you (and it's not such a bad thing) - xda-developers

The designers chose to not fully charge your phone when plugged in for long periods, as it extends the life of your battery.

Bump this link.

 

[Medion]

Sorry, been away (flew from Iraq back to the states!). Anyway;

I'd like to replace his "hardcore user" suggestion. Constantly doing a bump charge, as stated will, wear down the battery quickly. My method is to have 2 batteries and an external charger, replacing the battery daily. This ensure that, in most cases, both batteries will last the entire contract, which saves you money over his hardcore suggestion.

I don't recommend doing a bump charge. It's not worth the long-term ill effects.

 

[brigand]

I don't recommend doing a bump charge. It's not worth the long-term ill effects.

Just to clarify, what exactly constitutes bump-charging? To me it means, letting your phone charge until the light turns green, unplug, turn phone off, plug back in until it turns green again.

But what about doing repeated charges without turning the phone off? Is that bump-charging? Eg, charge phone until it turns green, unplug. Wait about 15 minutes, for the first sliver of the battery meter to disappear. Plug back in until it turns green. Wait 30 min for the sliver to disappear again, plug back in. Repeat a few times. Would this have the same ill effects as bump-charging with the phone off?

 

[euph_22]

Sorry, been away (flew from Iraq back to the states!). Anyway;

I'd like to replace his "hardcore user" suggestion. Constantly doing a bump charge, as stated will, wear down the battery quickly. My method is to have 2 batteries and an external charger, replacing the battery daily. This ensure that, in most cases, both batteries will last the entire contract, which saves you money over his hardcore suggestion.

I don't recommend doing a bump charge. It's not worth the long-term ill effects.

Swapping out the batteries like that can also trash the batteries, depending on the charger.

 

[hgoldner]

Who holds onto their phones for more than 2 years, maybe longer just waiting for that next device once their contract is up? If a lithium battery's lifespan is reduced from 4 years downward to 2 due to bump charging, I don't see where it makes a difference.

If the lifespan is to under a year, that's a problem.

 

[waxlrose]

Does anyone know if the Droid X can run off AC? Or does it have the same issues as the incredible? I'm trying to decide between the 2 phones and the battery issues of the incredible have me a bit worried.

Can the charger keep up with GPS Nav?

 

[howarmat]

Does anyone know if the Droid X can run off AC? Or does it have the same issues as the incredible? I'm trying to decide between the 2 phones and the battery issues of the incredible have me a bit worried.

Can the charger keep up with GPS Nav?

yes it will be able to do that

 

[DustinF00]

1. The Droid Incredible is not capable of running off AC. For one, AC is disabled during a bootup, so the battery would have to be inserted and have some degree of charge just to get through this. Secondly, removing the battery when powered on will cause the Incredible to turn off. NOTE: I have now had the opportunity to test this on 3 Incredibles (Two AMOLED, one SLCD). If you wish to dispute this, I'm open to two methods. One method is to ship me the phone that you believe runs off AC (I will pay shipping both ways). Alternatively, you can record a video. What I want to see is the phone plugged in, back cover off and battery exposed, phone turned on. Then, with the phone plugged in, remove the battery. If the phone stays powered on and functional, you've just proven me wrong. At that point, we'll need to talk, as I'll want to test this to see what hardware/software differences are causing this, and if it can be replicated to remove the need for a bump charge (bump charge is caused by the current kernel, but a custom kernel could be modified to work with this kind of phone for better battery life).

Furthermore, it is currently inconclusive if the lack of AC functionality is a hardware or software limitation. It could be hardware limited (where the battery completes the circuit), or it could be software (security measure, like the original Sony PSP which would not work without a battery inserted, unless running a hacked ROM which removed that security). If software limited, we can write a custom kernel or app to remove this issue, and thus eliminated the need for bump charge. If hardware limited, we're screwed.

In my experience with rugged devices in my full time job, devices require and continue to run off the battery because the battery can handle the current draw from the radios demanding power at a peak level. For example, the WAN and WLAN radios all of sudden are powering up or powering down, the current draw can be pretty huge. If running off of AC, the AC charger needs to be able to handle that draw. Except the AC chargers are meant to be made as cheap as possible.

An example would be installing a 1 Farad Capacitor between your Car Audio Amplifiers and the battery. Allowing the instant demand for power during the bass lines to come from CAP and not from the car battery or DC system. The phones battery can handle the instant demand for power.

I cannot explain whats happening in the Droid Inc. But if I had to bet money, I would bet its the same as I described above, which is what is happening for instance, in a motorola rugged mobile hand held.

Awesome evaluation - lots of work...