Danny_Boy82
Well-Known Member
I hear quitting skydiving is harder then kicking tobacco. 
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Electronic Cigarettes
- Thread starter OfTheDamned
- Start date
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
The KGO that I ordered is an eGo "clone" that actually has an 1100 mah battery and hits at a pretty constant 3.7-3.8 volts throughout the life of the battery. I think it is a little bigger than the eGo though. I should have it by this weekend (hope so).
I personally like cartos, but I honestly have not used an atomizer and cartridge combo very much. I prefer atomizers fro dripping most of the time. I did order some LR cartos that I think they refer to as eGo Mega Cartos and hold 5 to 6 ml of juice. 5 ml and 1100 mah may actually last me for a day or three. I chain vape quite often though.
Have you guys seen or heard much about the dangers of e-cigs?
I keep running across stuff about components of anti-freeze and tetramethylpyrazine, etc.. stuff that are carcinogens and one that is a known catalyst to brain damage and used to be used in glues until banned from those products due to "huffing."
Some of the scare sites about e-cigs seem to have a sort of unsaid lean (between the lines, so to speak) toward real tobacco products being better for you.Makes me think that perhaps there's some tobacco money behind the "information."
But to me, deeply inhaling much anything other than air would seem to challenge the cardiopulmonary system and perhaps most anything down stream.
I've read a bunch of that stuff before. The anti-freeze and other stuff came from a very unscientific test done on some of the very first e-cigs to land here in the US. One manufacturer had one cartridge that had trace amounts of some chemicals in it. If someone really wanted to they could argue that there are ingredients found in anti-freeze in just about everything though really. Anti-freeze does contain water doesn't it? So water being an ingredient in anti-freeze makes everything else under the sun a deadly toxin too.
As far is goes now, most of the juice that people use are made here in the US now. The different juice sites that are mentioned in this thread are all US sites. They create this stuff in house and you can request an ingredient list from many of them. As I've said though, just about all of them will have the same basic ingredients Vegetable Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, nicotine and artificial flavoring. The flavoring is where most people see a list of chemicals that can be complained about. As I said though, most of these are baking ingredients.
I don't think I would trust any site that told me a tobacco product was better for me than something else. Maybe that is just me though.
There are hundreds of carcinogens found in cigarettes. I've yet to find a single one in an e-juice.I'm interested to see some of the sites you were looking at. Mind posting a link?
T
TxGoat
Guest
I used to work with a guy that used these things, between that, his constant drinking of Mountain Dew or any other caffeinated beverage, and his obese status, he was a heart attack waiting to happen. He used the electronic cigarettes as a way to handle his addiction to Nicotine. If you think about it, it's like loading porn on your cell phone to quell your addiction to porn or loading some offshore betting app to help your gambling.
If you're really serious about quitting a vice, at one point you'll have to realize that the vice is controlling you and affecting your life. Once you've decided that you're going to take control then you're one step ahead of the vice. Now if everyone will excuse me, I'm going to go look for 'pron' apps for my phone.....
If you're really serious about quitting a vice, at one point you'll have to realize that the vice is controlling you and affecting your life. Once you've decided that you're going to take control then you're one step ahead of the vice. Now if everyone will excuse me, I'm going to go look for 'pron' apps for my phone.....
alostpacket
Over Macho Grande?
Have you guys seen or heard much about the dangers of e-cigs?
I keep running across stuff about components of anti-freeze and tetramethylpyrazine, etc.. stuff that are carcinogens and one that is a known catalyst to brain damage and used to be used in glues until banned from those products due to "huffing."
Some of the scare sites about e-cigs seem to have a sort of unsaid lean (between the lines, so to speak) toward real tobacco products being better for you.
But to me, deeply inhaling much anything other than air would seem to challenge the cardiopulmonary system and perhaps most anything down stream.
For me, I figure there is serious harm reduction just in the fact that you are inhaling a vapor rather than smoke.
Granted it's not perfect, but if you look at Sweden, they have had huge successes with advocating snus as harm reduction from smoking. The people who switch to snus are still addicted to nicotine, but the health problems are vastly less than smoking.
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
Making me search, ay OTD? My memory is not good enough, ay Jane? ..er, what? Where am I? lol.. 
Electronic Cigarette Dangers and Side Effects
Diethylene Glycol
Electronic Cigarettes are found to contain an anti-freeze component known as Diethylene Glycol. It is toxic to humans and can cause health worries on inhalation.
Toxicity
Other than Diethylene Glycol, e-cigarettes also contain cancer-causing compounds like nitrosamines. If the cigarette accidentally breaks, humans may be exposed to such harmful components.
E-cigarettes are not safe, and here's why
Quote:
MedPage Today recently reported on the FDA
Electronic Cigarette Dangers and Side Effects
Diethylene Glycol
Electronic Cigarettes are found to contain an anti-freeze component known as Diethylene Glycol. It is toxic to humans and can cause health worries on inhalation.
Toxicity
Other than Diethylene Glycol, e-cigarettes also contain cancer-causing compounds like nitrosamines. If the cigarette accidentally breaks, humans may be exposed to such harmful components.
E-cigarettes are not safe, and here's why
Quote:
MedPage Today recently reported on the FDA
T
TxGoat
Guest
Making me search, ay OTD? My memory is not good enough, ay Jane? ..er, what? Where am I? lol..
Electronic Cigarette Dangers and Side Effects
Diethylene Glycol
Electronic Cigarettes are found to contain an anti-freeze component known as Diethylene Glycol. It is toxic to humans and can cause health worries on inhalation.
Toxicity
Other than Diethylene Glycol, e-cigarettes also contain cancer-causing compounds like nitrosamines. If the cigarette accidentally breaks, humans may be exposed to such harmful components.
E-cigarettes are not safe, and here's why
Quote:
MedPage Today recently reported on the FDA
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
How did you get that idea? That's silly. Don't throw them. Use a funnel.
<--- please meditate on each of those before moving on to the next one.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
Making me search, ay OTD? My memory is not good enough, ay Jane? ..er, what? Where am I? lol..
Electronic Cigarette Dangers and Side Effects
Diethylene Glycol
Electronic Cigarettes are found to contain an anti-freeze component known as Diethylene Glycol. It is toxic to humans and can cause health worries on inhalation.
Toxicity
Other than Diethylene Glycol, e-cigarettes also contain cancer-causing compounds like nitrosamines. If the cigarette accidentally breaks, humans may be exposed to such harmful components.
E-cigarettes are not safe, and here's why
Quote:
MedPage Today recently reported on the FDA’s analysis of such products, and now we have some guidance as to how dangerous they can be.
E-cigarettes are battery operated, and contain nicotine and other flavors that the user can inhale. Advertisements claim they are safer since they don’t burn tobacco.
But according to the FDA, they “contain carcinogens such as diethylene glycol — used in antifreeze — and nitrosamines.”
Honestly, I find this stuff to be funny. I've read things like this many times and there is never any proof. There are never any test results or any other real information. The one question that sticks in the back of my mind is, why? Why would any of the companies coming up with a product like this use chemicals like that? There are plenty of non-toxic things out there (like the stuff they actually do put into the juice) that can be used instead of some toxic, death causing chemical like Diethylene Glycol. Why would anyone do that? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Also, if you look at the medpage article, it is from 2009. If these things really contain such horrible chemicals that can kill you why aren't we seeing numerous deaths caused by these products? That is almost 3 years of someone inhaling anti-freeze, isn't that long enough to kill someone?
The only really bad thing that any of these actually have in them is nicotine. Nicotine in high enough of a dose can make you really sick and/or kill you. Then again so can artificial sweeteners, car exhaust, steak, lead, cleaning products, etc. In most cases though, nicotine is about as dangerous as caffeine.
Personally, I like to seeing real data on this and not just claims.
Of course, if you look on the other side of the fence then you see a whole different set of results.
Virginia Commonwealth University Study of Electronic Cigarettes by Dr. Eissenberg
Testing on American Made Instead E-Liquid
Scientific Testing Verifies Electronic Cigarette Vapor Does Not Contain Carcinogenic TSNAs
Inhaling Nicotine Shows No Signs of Leading to Cancer
Technical Review and Analysis of FDA Report: ?Evaluation of e-cigarettes?
How and Why The FDA Misled The Public
The Truth About Ecigs
http://smoke-vs-vapor.webs.com/testresults.htm
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
I'm not trying to make a case for e-cig dangers. I'm just looking at this stuff as a response to the "link" request.
Here's another:
FDA acts against 5 electronic cigarette distributors
Here's one very recent article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/05/us-e-cigarettes-idUSTRE8041WB20120105
Here's another:
FDA acts against 5 electronic cigarette distributors
Here's one very recent article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/05/us-e-cigarettes-idUSTRE8041WB20120105
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
Well, the first article doesn't really say anything about them being dangerous. It just says that FDA is attacking them. Quality control in manufacturing I can understand being a problem though. As far as them shutting companies down that manufacture the juice, most everyone can create the juice in their own home pretty easily. The ingredients are legal and commonly available as well as FDA approved.
As far as the second, I'd be interested to see what they actually tested and what they were using as juice. With some juices I can see it causing a problem if people try to "smoke" them like a regular cigarette. With a regular cigarette someone will typically take a quick draw off of it lasting a second or two most of the time. PVs require a longer slower draw lasting 5 seconds in many cases. I've taken very quick draws off of them before and coughed quite a bit. On top of that, Propylene Glycol is used in asthma inhalers so that could cause some inflammation in some people I suppose.
I still say it is a tipping scale. 4000+ carcinogens or 3 minor non-toxic chemicals. Is the best option C) None of the above? Of course, but I'll take B for as long as it isn't something that will give me cancer.
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
Yeah I hear ya. On the Devil's Advocate side of it I recall it taking decades to prove a link between tobacco products and cancer. Research after research was debunked and tossed. Meanwhile, the smokers coughed on.
I'm not exactly sure if I can take a stand on this e-cig thing one way or the other. In the first place, I'd rather take my chances with this stuff, if I were so inclined, than having the government breathing down my neck. Hypocrisy abounds, as we watch and listen to all the healthcare stuff from a President who smokes and drinks, for example.
I'm not exactly sure if I can take a stand on this e-cig thing one way or the other. In the first place, I'd rather take my chances with this stuff, if I were so inclined, than having the government breathing down my neck. Hypocrisy abounds, as we watch and listen to all the healthcare stuff from a President who smokes and drinks, for example.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
Yeah, I do find it a bit hypocritical that agencies say cigarettes are ok and legal with their proven health risks while at the same time trying to put a scare into people over something with zero proven health risks.
Seeing pictures of the leader of the free world with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth makes me sick. I know that plenty of them did it in the past, but these days it is different. It reminds me of the problems we had with teenagers having "non-sex" (oral) in school buildings after someone in the same office said it wasn't really sex. Ahhh, the roll models the youth of today have.
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
Personally, i dont think it can be worse the cigarettes. Lesser of two evils for me.
T
TxGoat
Guest
That's why it may pose more of a danger. It's like the "100 calorie" snack packs or the "Now with reduced fat" labels. You convince yourself that it's healthier and thus you eat more which in turn makes you defeat the system.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
Well, if you do over do it with nicotine you've typically learned your lesson after the first time. I know I got pretty sick during my first month of vaping and I haven't done that again. I was also vaping 36 mg at the time. After cutting down the nicotine to 24 mg I have not had that problem again. I'll probably be dropping down to 18 or 16 mg in the next month or so.
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
Im content with 18 mg for the most part. I despite what seems like alot of vaping for me it really isnt. Unlike a cigarette, its much easier to take two or three puffs and be done for a while inside of the 20-30 that you get with a cigarette all at once. I go through about 24ml of fluid per month.. so slightly less than 1ml a day. How does that compare to you?
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
I'm honestly not sure how much I use per day, but I typically go through just under 60 ml a month. This is with cartos that are no longer performing real well though. So some of that juice is getting wasted. I'm hoping my new stuff will help things last a little longer. Sitting in front of a computer all day gives you too much time to vape.
I will say that I find myself taking just a few drags and being done for a little while when I have other things going on though.
I will say that I find myself taking just a few drags and being done for a little while when I have other things going on though.
Frisco
=Luceat Lux Vestra=
Yipe! Forgive me, but that was your body telling you that you were being poisoned.
What we do when that happens, and it happened to me at 14 with my first cigarette, is press on until the sick feelings no longer come about, sometimes by tapering off as you say you did, which means our system has adjusted our response to the poison (not made it less poisonous, as it seems to us at the time).
I don't know.. now that I'm seeing that, I had no idea.. "vaping" is beginning to sound to me like another corporation-induced, addictive delivery of pollutants.
Please don't take these remarks as anything of personal disrespect, etc, we all have our "poison."
I guess I'm just surprised; I think I had a rather benign image in my mind of this vaping thing as compared to smoking cigarettes.
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
Aye. I find I do like 80% of my vaping at work while I'm on the computer as well lol.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
Yipe! Forgive me, but that was your body telling you that you were being poisoned.
What we do when that happens, and it happened to me at 14 with my first cigarette, is press on until the sick feelings no longer come about, sometimes by tapering off as you say you did, which means our system has adjusted our response to the poison (not made it less poisonous, as it seems to us at the time).
I don't know.. now that I'm seeing that, I had no idea.. "vaping" is beginning to sound to me like another corporation-induced, addictive delivery of pollutants.
Please don't take these remarks as anything of personal disrespect, etc, we all have our "poison."
I guess I'm just surprised; I think I had a rather benign image in my mind of this vaping thing as compared to smoking cigarettes.
Well it is an addictive "poison" so to speak. It is nicotine and nicotine can be lethal in high enough doses, just like alcohol. What I did that time was the equivalent of a freshman fratboy drinking far too much alcohol at a party. It can be done with regular cigarettes too. All you are really doing is giving your body more nicotine than it is used to or is willing to tolerate.
As I've said though, I'd rather have the nicotine and a few chemicals that are rather harmless than a whole list of carcinogens that are deadly on their own let alone grouped together.
The nice thing about vaping is that I get to control the amount of nicotine my body gets. Unlike cigarettes in their different levels juice really does allow you to tapper off all the way to 0. I could continue to vape even after I dropped all nicotine from the equation, if I wanted.
IOWA
Mr. Logic Pants
Yeah and you can still get the throat hit which is often the most desired effect.
I quit smoking several years ago and did not have the chance to try out e cigs, but I think it's a great smoking alternative.
After I stopped smoking, I can't stand other people smoking in my presence, and since exits don't have that smell, I sure hope all smokers switch to it.
Of course there is pros and cons, as well as switching just doesn't mean you quit smoking but just changed the medium...
But at least it solves the larger issue of passive smoking.
I was just wondering though, in Japan, we still have many people smoking on the streets, and bars and restaurants are still mostly smoker friendly.
But we seems to have a much smaller variation of e cigs...
After I stopped smoking, I can't stand other people smoking in my presence, and since exits don't have that smell, I sure hope all smokers switch to it.
Of course there is pros and cons, as well as switching just doesn't mean you quit smoking but just changed the medium...
But at least it solves the larger issue of passive smoking.
I was just wondering though, in Japan, we still have many people smoking on the streets, and bars and restaurants are still mostly smoker friendly.
But we seems to have a much smaller variation of e cigs...
MeepMeepChu
Newbie
Thanks for posting this. I don't smoke but I considered e-cigs for a while, at least wanted to know what it was like. The hazards thing got me to look a few things up though...
Electronic Cigarettes
Summary of Results: Laboratory Analysis of Electronic Cigarettes Conducted By FDA
The second article there, a summary of what the FDA found in their analysis back in 09 kinda worries me... with the inconsistencies they found in manufacturing I mean. Might be worth looking into anyway, it doesn't look like even the FDA did much conclusive research.
Electronic Cigarettes
Summary of Results: Laboratory Analysis of Electronic Cigarettes Conducted By FDA
The second article there, a summary of what the FDA found in their analysis back in 09 kinda worries me... with the inconsistencies they found in manufacturing I mean. Might be worth looking into anyway, it doesn't look like even the FDA did much conclusive research.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
Yep, I've read most of that at one point in time or another.
You have to keep in mind that most of the reports and lab work done on these things has nothing to do with the devices themselves and is more about the liquid used in them. Most of the information that I read really fails at making that distinction. They refer to e-cigs in most of the information and I'm not even sure that the FDA understands that they are really two different things. Even the companies that "got in trouble" over the conditions of their facilities aren't juice manufacturers. They were companies that sell the devices. While some of their products may come with cartridges that contain liquid they aren't making the liquid and the what they do have is wrapped in plastic.
The original report was done over a few different products that came directly from China. No offense to anyone in or from China, but you are talking about stuff that was manufactured were lead based paint has recently been used for children's toys. While it is possible that they found the ingredients they state, to my knowledge, they have never released the lab tests that they did. At the same time, majority of the juice used these days is made in the US by a few different companies. They are very straight forward about what is in their products and their standards are pretty high. As I've said before, the ingredients used in these US made juices are all FDA approved. With the exception of nicotine they are also found in things that we put into our bodies on a regular basis. Even some of the foods we eat contain nicotine (potatoes, eggplant, etc.)
Will these products ever be FDA approved? No idea really. I have a feeling that further tests will continue to be done over cheaper poorly made products instead of the top of line products that really work well. The fact that celebrities are now using them (even if they are using the higher priced poorer quality variety) may push things along. In the end, as long as someone is putting out a product that isn't as dangerous as the real thing I think it is great. How many people really want to put these things in their body?
The List of Additives in Cigarettes - Additives in Cigarettes
I have to say that the whole kid issue does get on my nerves though. I understand people being concerned about kids, I have two and I'm equally concerned about mine. The fact that people get up in arms about the flavors used for e-cigs does get a little annoying though. Just because vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, etc. flavors are offered doesn't mean that these are being marketed towards children. Last time I checked, adults like these flavors too. As long as they are not sold to people under the age of 18/21 then it should be fine. Let's be honest though, I smoked before I was 17 (legal age then) and so did most of my friends. Kids get alcohol and cigarettes if they really want them. Laws to prevent it are a good thing, but parents have to be watching out for their kids. Stopping the sale of bubblegum flavored e-cigs isn't going to stop most kids from smoking if they really want to though.
OfTheDamned
The Friendly Undead
On to the other part of this topic.
I received my new stuff (KGO plus new cartomizers) in the mail yesterday and was able to use it late last night. They work REALLY well. I'm really impressed and sorry I didn't "upgrade" sooner. I picked up a couple of clear cartomizers too so I can see exactly how much juice is left when I am vaping.
Now I just need to order some of that Boba's Bounty to test out.
I received my new stuff (KGO plus new cartomizers) in the mail yesterday and was able to use it late last night. They work REALLY well. I'm really impressed and sorry I didn't "upgrade" sooner. I picked up a couple of clear cartomizers too so I can see exactly how much juice is left when I am vaping.
Now I just need to order some of that Boba's Bounty to test out.