Forget 30fps cap. Fix our video camera first.

[EarlyMon]

If the limitations are android 2.1 related and not htc then does that mean samsung used better sensors and lens on the galaxy? Because the video recorder from the droid Dog video makes our look really bad. Watching that and the iphone video really upset me. I actually used my video camera a lot. I have 2 kids and love taking on the fly videos of them.
I worry that HTC will just push updates out and never address this. Will xda be able to customize our video camera codecs with 2.2 to give us less blur.

The H.264 codec is motion optimized.

There is no included codec for encoding in Android beyond H.263.

At this point, anything else must be vendor or third party provided.

The lens and sensor may not measure up to the iP4, for example, but neither are they dog meat.

The data rate on our phones is constrained, as I recall, to 5 to 6 Mbps. (per Aldo Junior Ao2's link, the update puts us 8 Mbps, pushable to 10 w/ root access)

The Samsung Galaxy S is using a more light-sensitive sensor - at 5MP - and records MPEG 4 at a high 11 Mbps rate.

Source: Samsung Galaxy S Review - SlashGear

Compares to iP4 here -

iPhone 4 vs Samsung Galaxy S HD video battle: Android wins! | Electricpig


The Droid X is using the same crappy video codec we are as well as an 8MP sensor - but it's also brute forcing things with a very high bit rate, see -

720p Video Capture Comparison, iPhone 4 v. DROID X Boy Genius Report

I among others advocate the H.264 codec because 1) it's motion optimized and 2) just gives equivalent or better quality at lower bitrates / file sizes. See advantages here:

H.264 Encoder - freeware encode video to H.264 format

There doesn't seem to be an integrated chip doing the video recording, so it must be getting done purely in software.

HTC Evo 4G Teardown - Page 2 - iFixit

Whether HTC will ever address this or not is something we can speculate on - but I'm willing to bet if they don't come through, a app developer will. I believe that the many 720p Android phone flavors coming out will make that inevitable.

Either a bitrate increase or H.264 should provide significant improvements - I'd really rather that it simply be the latter.

The quality possible with the lens and sensor for stills clearly suggests that we can expect more from that combo with better software.

PS - Note the superior audio codec for the Droid X - yeah, let's have a little of that while we're at it.

 

[EarlyMon]

If the XDA guys do the right thing(tm) and release the source to their code, HTC will simply be able to incorporate it back for free, to the benefit of us all in a future release. That's the whole point of open source, after all.

I agree in spirit but I subscribe to Stallman's principle: it's free as in speech, not free as in beer.

I note that some devs working their keisters off at XDA have drop boxes for voluntary donations.

For us to get it for free by working with those devs taking chances on bleeding edge - or just because they love the work and the community - that's one thing.

For HTC to pick such a code package up and then use to further its competitive advantage in the corporate marketplace - yeah - I kinda think that merits a pretty nice "donation."

Were this dream to come true, I would think that it would be the business of the devs to extend to HTC the right to license for distribution - and anyone walking into that corporate nightmare would do well to be compensated for that further effort - but - that's just my opinion.

 

[Deleted User]

For HTC to pick such a code package up and then use to further its competitive advantage in the corporate marketplace - yeah - I kinda think that merits a pretty nice "donation."

No, HTC are not obliged to pay anyone for their open source work, just as the devs using HTC's modified Linux Kernel are not paying HTC for access to it.. and HTC are not paying Linus for the Kernel in the first place. The XDA devs wouldn't be able to do a lot of what they're doing without the free effort/open source HTC has provided, not to mention all of the various open source tools they're using as part of their development work.

The best thing is, not only does HTC get to benefit from the work of open source developers, so does everyone else including HTC's rivals, but more importantly, we all do, because now everyone is that much improved.

That all said, HTC would be fools to ignore the work of the XDA devs.

Were this dream to come true, I would think that it would be the business of the devs to extend to HTC the right to license for distribution - and anyone walking into that corporate nightmare would do well to be compensated for that further effort - but - that's just my opinion.

If the devs wanted to get paid cash money for their work, they shouldn't have started with the free efforts of others up the chain

 

[senormatt]

Agreed, I'd like the option for less compressed pics/vids.

 

[EarlyMon]

No, HTC are not obliged to pay anyone for their open source work, just as the devs using HTC's modified Linux Kernel are not paying HTC for access to it.. and HTC are not paying Linus for the Kernel in the first place. The XDA devs wouldn't be able to do a lot of what they're doing without the free effort/open source HTC has provided, not to mention all of the various open source tools they're using as part of their development work.

The Free Software Definition - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF)

“Free software” does not mean “noncommercial.” A free program must be available for commercial use, commercial development, and commercial distribution. Commercial development of free software is no longer unusual; such free commercial software is very important. You may have paid money to get copies of free software, or you may have obtained copies at no charge. But regardless of how you got your copies, you always have the freedom to copy and change the software, even to sell copies.

Selling Free Software - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF)

Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU Project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible — just enough to cover the cost. This is a misunderstanding.

Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.

The word “free” has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of “free software”, we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of “free speech”, not “free beer”.) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes.

Free programs are sometimes distributed gratis, and sometimes for a substantial price. Often the same program is available in both ways from different places. The program is free regardless of the price, because users have freedom in using it.

That all said, HTC would be fools to ignore the work of the XDA devs.

My original point exactly.

If the devs wanted to get paid cash money for their work, they shouldn't have started with the free efforts of others up the chain

There is nothing disloyal or predatory if an XDA dev were to set appropriate commercial licensing terms.

If they were to give it away to HTC, fine - but they've created a derivative work of the kernel that is so far at this point in time for non-commercial distribution.

Once it goes commercial - kindly see above.

Things are not simply cut and dried because it's free.

That's entirely up to the licensor, so long as their descendent license does not violate the antecedents.

http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html

Linux is written and distributed under the GNU General Public License which means that its source code is freely-distributed and available to the general public.

PS - I've worked in FOSS for well over a decade. My company benefits from FOSS - the cost of equivalent-function development tools and operating systems alone would be quite high. After consulting with Stallman on the matter some 12 years ago, we decided that our corporate responsibility was best fulfilled by taking the effort to give back to the FOSS community. Each quarter we review our resources and then set aside R&D staff and resources to simply work GNU projects of the developers' choice - we test, we log defects, we fix code. From time to time, we host how-to websites. We do this as anonymously as possible - or it wouldn't be giving.

I personally believe that it's good corporate citizenship to give back to well, not just slurp from the trough. If HTC can't be bothered to solve the problem using their own resources, why shouldn't they give a little something back? Whether it's to the FOSS community through FSF donations or by putting general-use code into the pool for others, or by simply paying the devs a few sheckels for their efforts - I see no cause for a major corporation to simply profit off the free sweat of others' brows.

And no - I've never charged a dime for anything we've derived and distributed based on free software - because I represent a corporate entity, and I believe that that's what's right.

But the little guy, in the trenches, doing genius work just to help out like-minded phone lovers - I just personally believe those guys deserve a little more at the hand of a big corporation.

 

[neodorian]

I agree that it is lacking compared to my point and shoot or camcorder but it is what it is. There's a kernel patch for the fps cap and it really improves things. Hopefully someone improves the video capture and encoding. No matter how good a device there will always be weaker points. There is definitely some room for improvement in Evo's video capture settings so hopefully someone makes a patch or application that gives us better quality. I didn't buy this phone to replace my dedicated camera so I'm not going to focus on the video recording quality.

Hopefully someone here or at xda or wherever finds a way to improve it. I will be glad to install any patch or update that gives better video.

 

[dr g]

It's not a hardware issue at all. It's been widely acknowledged that the camera is recording in a lower quality format and that the bitrates are too low and compression is too high, all of which can be fixed in software.

This, anyone who talks about the sensor is clueless.

Wait a minute -- all of the posters who complain about shoppiness and dropped frames -- is this evident on the phone on playback or when you transfer the video to the desktop/laptop?

It's in the video file, and will behave similarly when transfered to another machine.

 

[heavychevy]

I agree, the camcorder issue is far more important than the FPS. All the whining about FPS though and the camcorder may get pushed under the rug.

The camera takes awesome pictures IMO, I haven't seen any pictures from a phone better than I can take (except maybe low light).

 

[interccessor]

I use the 720 and mpeg 4 settings and my videos look great.

 

[MrX8503]

I dunno, IMO the 30fps cap is a bigger deal. The second you use your phone the cap is affecting your user experience 100% of the time. This is obviously more often than using a camcorder.

 

[EarlyMon]

I dunno, IMO the 30fps cap is a bigger deal. The second you use your phone the cap is affecting your user experience 100% of the time. This is obviously more often than using a camcorder.

The 30 fps cap is a bigger deal only if someone cares about that performance hit.

Capturing golden moments via better videos of the kiddies is a much bigger deal to some people than this stupid cap.

I'm rooted (goodie for me), so I can go try the latest kernel fix for that at my leisure (and at 3.71, it's looking like it's just about all over but for the shouting).

But that one moment in the zoo or at the park?

You can't get that moment back by rooting and visiting XDA or by waiting for HTC.

The best video we can get right now is to piggyback on top of the HTC 1.47 distro with a root tweak to get to 10 Mbps - still with a crappy codec.

Yep, I use my screen more than videorecord.

And, I fight traffic on the freeway more often than I visit Hawaii.

Frequency does not necessarily equate to importance in use cases.

 

[heavychevy]

^^^^Agree^^^^^

 

[MrX8503]

The 30 fps cap is a bigger deal only if someone cares about that performance hit.

Like you said, it only matters if the users care about it. To me, I don't really care about the camcorder.

 

[dornier]

HTC, please fix the bad video quality of the EVO. I really like the pictures it takes, but the 720p video is very poor. I hope this is fixed in the next update.

 

[hodedofome]

I gotta think that it's at least partly software related. I was disappointed in the camera's quality until I downloaded Vignette, and now almost all my pictures look great (for a phone). It was a HUGE difference using Vignette over the stock camera app. So there's plenty of software tweaks to be done. I would think that the camcorder in the Evo is the same.

 

[Babbit]

This, anyone who talks about the sensor is clueless.



It's in the video file, and will behave similarly when transfered to another machine.

Wait, so the fact that the EVO has a 1/3.2" sensor, which is the smallest 8mp sensor there is doesn't limit the quality? Even though the crappiest 8mp cameras use a larger 1/2.2" sensor? Even with the perfect code, sensor size will limit your ISO.

 

[EarlyMon]

Wait, so the fact that the EVO has a 1/3.2" sensor, which is the smallest 8mp sensor there is doesn't limit the quality? Even though the crappiest 8mp cameras use a larger 1/2.2" sensor? Even with the perfect code, sensor size will limit your ISO.

Yes.

And kindly see what can be done with video with that same sensor in the links I provided, above.

There are theoretical differences and then there are practical limits.

No question the sensor on the Evo leaves room for improvement.

Once a better encoder is provided - and only then - can we fully bridge from theoretical to practical.

ISO/shutter speed/f stop - bet you can't eat just one.

 

[One Beast]

I think the "phone" shoots great 720p video you just have to supplement it with good lighting conditions.....

 

[EarlyMon]

Like you said, it only matters if the users care about it. To me, I don't really care about the camcorder.

And you won't until you decide to re-purchase an Evo again - and from what you've said elsewhere, it's possible you'll never purchase from HTC again because you felt so ripped off over the 30 fps cap.

Did I not get that right?

Because in such a case, your claims that using the screen more and needing the fps cap lifted more is just so much soap-boxing.

Meanwhile - the XDA devs now have a kernel mod that will fully accomplish 50~60 neighborhood fps, with either the Novatek or Epson screens, without fettering the HDMI port. Users are now reporting back their tweaking parameters.

It's all over but for the shouting on the fps cap.

Folks such as yourself that had good and valid reasons to not want to root can take heart in the fact that no one can hide behind hardware limitation claims - the fix is in.

Meanwhile - this thread is more about a plea to fix something for which no apparent fix is forthcoming. It could have just as easily been titled, "Forget WiFi. Fix our video camera first."

You're finding plenty of other soapboxes to tell us that the 30 fps cap is important.

(waves hand) This is not the video thread you're looking for.

 

[EarlyMon]

I think the "phone" shoots great 720p video you just have to supplement it with good lighting conditions.....

I've run one side by side in the California sun against the iP4.

We're getting screwed in comparison.

That's my opinion only.

 

[tmaxey1]

I've run one side by side in the California sun against the iP4.

We're getting screwed in comparison.

That's my opinion only.

I've run some test against the iphone 4 as well and I agree that we are getting shorted with this. Our stills come out nicely in certain conditions. The Flash is terrible though. It is so blinding an poorly timed that anyone within 10 feet of it will look like a white blur. They do need to find a way to adjust that. The video recorder is good only if you are outside and both you and your subject are completely still. If you move around at all you will get horrible blur and you will lose frames.

I took a family trip to the beach today and did some more shooting with the 720p camcorder. I watched the video's back in the car on the way home and about every one had parts where it skipped ahead by about 4-5 seconds at some point. 1 of the video's is only sound with a frozen picture for about 2 minutes. The picture just freezes and never unfreezes while recording. This is terrible.

The samsung galazy S just came out and the iphone 4 and both camera's beat us handily in video recording. And both phones are 5mp cameras. I feel like HTC marketed us the Megapixel hype and the resolution hype instead of quality. I feel like iphone and samsung got the canon level camera and we got stuck with the hidef sanyo flip camera version. Yet we were marketed 8mp's and 720p. I think cameras, phones, ect should have some standard when claiming 720p. If your camera isnt capable out of the box to run 720p at 24-30 consistent fps then you shouldnt be allowed to market 720p. Otherwise you can market 720p while only pulling 10fps and your video will look like ours.

HTC is a great company. They are really leading the charge with Android. They should be working harder to deliver a polished product.

 

[dr g]

Wait, so the fact that the EVO has a 1/3.2" sensor, which is the smallest 8mp sensor there is doesn't limit the quality?

In short, no it doesn't, because the limits of the sensor as so far from being reached by the Evo's video implementation. If we actually reached the limits of this sensor, we would see few complaints about video quality.

I dunno, IMO the 30fps cap is a bigger deal. The second you use your phone the cap is affecting your user experience 100% of the time. This is obviously more often than using a camcorder.

Only if it affects your experience as a user. It affects me 0% of the time.

 

[MrX8503]

And you won't until you decide to re-purchase an Evo again - and from what you've said elsewhere, it's possible you'll never purchase from HTC again because you felt so ripped off over the 30 fps cap.

Did I not get that right?

Because in such a case, your claims that using the screen more and needing the fps cap lifted more is just so much soap-boxing.

Meanwhile - the XDA devs now have a kernel mod that will fully accomplish 50~60 neighborhood fps, with either the Novatek or Epson screens, without fettering the HDMI port. Users are now reporting back their tweaking parameters.

It's all over but for the shouting on the fps cap.

Folks such as yourself that had good and valid reasons to not want to root can take heart in the fact that no one can hide behind hardware limitation claims - the fix is in.

Meanwhile - this thread is more about a plea to fix something for which no apparent fix is forthcoming. It could have just as easily been titled, "Forget WiFi. Fix our video camera first."

You're finding plenty of other soapboxes to tell us that the 30 fps cap is important.

(waves hand) This is not the video thread you're looking for.

What I'm saying is that I care about UI performance more than a really good camcorder. The camcorder on the EVO sucks, but it didn't bother me too much. Obviously now that the fps cap is fixed unofficially, HTC should try fixing their camcorder.

Quite frankly if HTC doesn't fix either, shame on them.

 

[Raadius]

HTC is not, why would they? They got there monies worth, unless we setup a mass complaint or revolt lol

 

[Aldo Junior Ao2]

CyanogenMod-6 encoding in H.264 . I'm testing as we speak to see if there is a difference.
Just a heads up.