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Gingerbread, Ice Cream Sanwich, Cyannogenmod 8/9 etc..

I stopped reading responses after a few posts, but to clarify a few things;

Android's su binary doesnt allow users to take root privs. Rooting replaces the su binary with one that can be invoked by users/apps similar to using sudo. It also installs several utilities that are usually associated with root level access/activities.

Rooting has been known to block updates on some phones, nut can be undone.

If you want to load ROMs you'll need to replace the bootloader as the stock one only supports installation of signed packages (no third party). In order to do that you have to unlock the bootloader, which voids the warranty and cannot be reversed.

Cyanogen can be thought of as a distro that is built from AOSP source code. It is known as being very stable and fast. Version 7 is based on Gingerbread. Version 8 will never be released/developed since Google never released source code for Honeycomb. Version 9 is thought to be based on ICS, when the source is released of course.

One last point is that Motoblur runs somewhere between the kernel and user land. Many view it as a detriment but it's what allows features like webdock and dock audio to work.
 
To further clarify, while there are risks with rooting but even in a terminal you have to authorize su access.

If you back up your ROM after replacing the bootloader you can put it back on the phone. You'd then just need to unroot to be back to stock. Once the phone's booted it no longer needs the bootloader.

As for locking the bootloader back up or removing the Unlocked message, it used to be possible by flashing back to the stock using a Motorola .sbf file, which put you back to dead-bang stock. Since the Gingerbread update however trying to reflash an sbf after unlocking will hard brick the phone.

With regards to whether or not you should root, unlock, or flash a ROM, there are advantages and disadvantages to each. Research, do your homework, and make the call. Don't let anyone make the decision for you. Just remember that while it's your phone to do with as you please, the results are also your responsibility.
 
shaidtan said:
If you back up your ROM after replacing the bootloader you can put it back on the phone. You'd then just need to unroot to be back to stock. Once the phone's booted it no longer needs the bootloader.
Click to expand...

Most of what you've said in your posts have been covered in other posts in this thread.

However, this is NOT CORRECT. If you read through the thread, you will find that Motorola put something new in the Atrix... an "eFuse" that will Blow out when you unlock the bootloader.

Once that "eFuse" is blown, you can not load a stock ROM back on there, even from a backup.

The Atrix is "Booby-Trapped" - once you trip the trap by unlocking the bootloader, you can't go back.
 
carr said:
I ve been reading a bit about Ice cream Sandwich and it looks interesting.Hopefully we will have that before the first of the year.
Click to expand...

Don't hold your breath. Motorola has only officially said 3 devices are getting ICS (So far). And, they shocked everyone yesterday by saying they would be able to get the builds out 6 weeks after the source is released by Google. (That's VERY fast in this world!!) But, that puts those devices getting it in January at the earliest.

http://www.androidauthority.com/motorola-ics-upgrade-bionic-razr-xoom-28656/

The Atrix is less than a year old, so I feel confident that Motorola will release an official ICS build for it. But, they've release a few other phones since then (Like the Atrix2) that I'm sure they will try to get the ICS builds out for first. The discussion we've had on it, I think most of us agree, it will be sometime next summer, maybe even next Fall.... IF we get it at all. Some have speculated that they rushed the Atrix2 out so they could abandon the Atrix.

And, if Motorola never releases an official build, we will have to wait on the 3rd party guys to build their own version.

carr said:
Also I have downloaded and installed Launcher Pro, Elixir 2 and Lookout. All great programs and thanks very much for the recommendations. Launcher Pro-- well its a different phone now. Elixir 2 is an amazing tool with its own version of top as well. I like that type of tool.
Click to expand...

Those are some of my favorite apps. I've been using Android devices since "CupCake" - and I've built a small list of apps I like and don't like (for various reasons). So, if there is something you are wanting to do with the phone, give me a shout. I can probably recommend an app to you.
 
WolfmanRobby said:
Most of what you've said in your posts have been covered in other posts in this thread.

However, this is NOT CORRECT. If you read through the thread, you will find that Motorola put something new in the Atrix... an "eFuse" that will Blow out when you unlock the bootloader.

Once that "eFuse" is blown, you can not load a stock ROM back on there, even from a backup.

The Atrix is "Booby-Trapped" - once you trip the trap by unlocking the bootloader, you can't go back.
Click to expand...

Much of what I said has been previously stated, this is true, but it has at times been intermixed with equal portions of misinformation and opinions being expressed as facts. I won't apologize for attempting to clear up the resulting confusion.

As for the efuse thing, I did a quick search and found this thread, which hopefully will shed a little light on the subject.

As for going back to stock, I think two things are getting confused here. Remember that the bootloader doesn't determine what ROM you can or cannot use (the term 'ROM' refers to any software system running on the phone). While it is true that once unlocked you cannot go back to stock via an sbf once the phone has seen the Gingerbread update.

You can however make a backup of your phone in it's rooted state and then restore from that backup. From there you can reverse the root process. Your phone will always be unlocked and you may not be able to apply OTA updates once you change your bootloader however.

There are also ROMs based on the stock image out there, as well as ROMs that are mirrors of the stock image that can be flashed to the phone. It's true that they won't make your phone dead stock, but they'll get it to a point that the only difference is in the bootloader.

To continue the Linux analogy, think of the stock software as using LILO, and you're replacing it with GRUB (this being the recovery image). The 'bootloader' refers to the data on the boot sector of the boot drive that kicks off the whole process. Somehow software updates via official methods are only possible if LILO is installed, but GRUB allows you to do everything else including images that look identical to the updated systems. The analogy isn't perfect but hopefully it'll suffice.

As always, verify everything you read here before trusting it. If you decide to root, unlock, ROM, etc. make sure you have a clear understanding of what you're doing and why you're doing it before moving forward. Rooting isn't for everyone - this is true - but it is for some.
 
shaidtan said:
As for going back to stock, I think two things are getting confused here. Remember that the bootloader doesn't determine what ROM you can or cannot use
Click to expand...

Again, NOT CORRECT.

The OEM (Stock) ROMs will not install if the Bootloader has been unlocked. Not because of the bootloader itself, but because of the eFuse that "Blows" when you unlock the bootloader. It's very simple programming for them to add in a check to the ROM un-packaging process that checks this and aborts the load.

EDIT - (For clarification)
No one has said the Bootloader stops you from loading the ROM. Please, take the time to RE-Read. It's the eFuse that stops it. If the eFuse is intact, Stock ROM's will load. If the eFuse is "Blown" then stock ROM's won't load. Unlocking the bootloader "Blows" this eFuse.
You are confusing the cause with the effect. Your analogy of Grub and lilo are off base. This is more to the effect of a 64bit Linux Distro checking a computer's CPU and seeing it's a 32 bit and aborting the install process.

So far, (to my knowlege) no one has successfully been able to restore a backed up OEM ROM to an Atrix that has had the bootloader unlocked.

You seem to know a lot about Androids, but not that much about the Atrix itself. Motorola changed some of the rules when they built this device. They've done a lot (in typical Moto fashion) to try to discourage people from modifying the phone's OS to a custom ROM.

Since the Google terms prevents them from FULLY stopping people from doing it, they put in a LOT of roadblocks that prevent you from ever coming back if you go down that path. So, since they really can't "Stop" you from unlocking the bootloader and going with a custom ROM, they have done all they can to discourage it.
 
Ok, let's keep the discussion nice folks. It is perfectly fine to disagree with others, but let's avoid insults. If you need any clarification on acceptable posting practices then please see the links to the rules and ZTP in my signature.
 
Look up RSD Lite and what .sbf files do. The 'official' from-Motorola images are in the form of .sbf files and are installed using RSD Lite. Once you unlock your bootloader you cannot load an sbf file.

ROM != .sbf

You can load any ROM you want if you've unlocked your bootloader AND have installed a recovery that supports unsigned packages. It doesn't matter if that ROM is an exact copy of the stock software that Motorola ships. In that case the OS is the same, but the bootloader isn't. Again, it's not dead-bang stock because the bootloader is modified, but once you've booted the phone up the software is the same. The Fruitcake ROM was created for exactly this reason.

So, with an unlocked bootloader, going to stock via a ROM is fine. Attempting to go to stock using an sbf file will hard brick your phone. Caveats remain as previously stated.
 
I think you are completely missing my point.

Loading a CLONE of a Stock ROM that has been modified to work with the blown eFuse DOES NOT equal going back to stock.

I don't understand why you are arguing with me on this. As you said yourself, it's "not dead bang stock" - and that is my point! You can not go back to STOCK. Just something close to it.

Close is not stock.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades.

My point stands.... Once you unlock the bootloader, you can never go back to STOCK.

And, if you are not "Dead Bang STOCK," you can't load OEM updates. They won't instal with a "Close to Stock ROM Clone." --- That's what I've been saying since I first posted it. It's not FUD or Misinformation. It's FACT.
 
kycats said:
5w9rbl.jpg
Click to expand...

Picard was a better Captain than Kirk!!! :D
 
Who's arguing? I don't see much point in getting upset about something someone says on the instanets :).

I think we're using one word (stock) to describe two different states. Many of us consider stock to mean that the kernel-userland is the same as the from-Motorola software.

Many others (such as yourself) feel that a phone is not stock unless it's 100% as it was from the factory, bootloader state included. That's fine too and is a valid view; and in that interpretation the moment you unlock your bootloader you can never be stock with that phone again.

I don't personally see the former as a matter of "close enough".

We both were possibly being too vague and I will apologize if I'm guilty of that.

One thing I will say is that while rooting isn't for everyone it is for some people. I do feel though that rooting is not for people who can't follow directions or don't bother doing the proper amount of research and gaining the proper understanding before doing it. That goes triple for unlocking the bootloader.
 
shaidtan said:
Many others (such as yourself) feel that a phone is not stock unless it's 100% as it was from the factory, bootloader state included. That's fine too and is a valid view; and in that interpretation the moment you unlock your bootloader you can never be stock with that phone again.
Click to expand...

That is EXACTLY the point.

I use the same definition that OEM's use when referring to warranty qualifications and what voids that warranty. STOCK is just like the phone came from the vendor with no modifications.

And, I would go so far as to say that it's not "Many Others" that view it this way. MOST of us interpret it this way. You could say that, on this view, "We are the 99%!!" :D

Some changes can be undone (Like rooting) so that are are back to STOCK.
Other changes (such as in this case, unlocking the bootloader) can never be undone. Therefore the phone will not be back to STOCK.
 
I'm OK with being the 1%. It wouldn't be the first time.

As for Picard vs. Kirk, that's a tough one. Both were complete bad-asses (should that be a hyphenate?). Picard definitely had better toys. I think the whole debate comes down to reckless abandon (Kirk) or quiet reserve and cold precision (Picard). I'm going to have to side with you and Picard on this one.
 
shaidtan said:
I'm OK with being the 1%. It wouldn't be the first time.

As for Picard vs. Kirk, that's a tough one. Both were complete bad-asses (should that be a hyphenate?). Picard definitely had better toys. I think the whole debate comes down to reckless abandon (Kirk) or quiet reserve and cold precision (Picard). I'm going to have to side with you and Picard on this one.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

Kirk had the attitude of "If I can't screw it, I'll blow it up!"

Picard tried to be a little more tactful. But, if he couldn't negotiate with it, and Riker couldn't screw it, then he would unleash Worf and let him blow it to h*ll!!! :D
 
Glad to see the "nerd fight" fizzled. I ran out of popcorn. ;)

Plus I'm over my quota for today on edited posts, locked threads, infractions and bannings.

< double checking >

Hey, I've got a bonus dozen more of each. Go ahead and fight.. I'm ready.

:D
 
Well...damn. Dunno whether I should stick my head back in here or not since Im a lightweight noob (I walk on a peg because I didnt put my phasor on safe before putting it in my pocket......)

Thanks to all. Good information. Given that Moto may not release ICS at all for the 4G...then that seems to me anyway to make the case--and let me predicate this by saying "in my situation"...for unlocking the bootloader.

This is my first new phone in 3 years. I have friends who change every few months. So if Moto wants to plan obsolesence by not supporting comaparitively recent platforms with a new release...then one might wonder how long one could find a ROM of a newer release that would work on their phone. Part of that might be answerable by the fact that droid seems to be completely platform specific in a distro where any variety of the nuxes or for that matter Microweasel is not. I assume Apple might be. Dont have all the /dev's included in a ROM. Interesting question is how similar is the platform architecture between say the 4 G and the Atrix 2. I read that the 2 has a different radio, less memory and so forth. I ve supported unsupported devices in Unix and Linux and it can be a huge PITA. On the other hand considering what I paid for this phone, its age and the seemingly short lifespan of smartphone models, then maybe in another year I will just buy something else. The toys are nice. I also believe that someone could build Droid where one could run in a user account but have /root with safety. To do that droid though would almost have to be multiuser. I never have thought how much that would bloat the OS though but looking at the 4G I never have seen heavy memory usage in the couple of days I ve had it--the heaviest seems to be streaming video. One can ask how much more capable is the platform than the OS takes advantage of.

You guys have certainly shed some light on a lot of things here. I read ICS is going to provide better controls for apps that call home and reading between the lines maybe better access control and permissioning for apps that will equate to more security. We dont see permission escalation much in 'nux. We do see it a lot and historically have in Windows. Apparently there have been a couple of cases if it in droid. What I would like to see is a version of say ICS that loads bare. Basic GUI. NONE of this social networking and built in launcher stuff. Then you go out to the store and add what you want as you need it. But I would like to see that for the way I use the platform. The stock release for the 99% of course would be bloated with the eye candy and social networking stuff. Maybe it will happen because there seems to be a vibrant creative droid power users group around and the ware seems to be so much better than for example Symbian which my last phone ran. No support outside of Nokia to speak of.

Interesting article about the fuse thanks for that. Also thanks for the idea of whether/when/if ICS will be available for the 4G. One of the things I am beginning to have hope of is that the 4G wil prove to be reliable enough to save some weight on a backpacking trip I am trying to plan for sometime early next year. If it does I could leave a handheld GPS and my laptop at home. Buy one of the docking monitor/keyboard devices that Motorola makes for the 4G. The 4G certainly seems like its(with the Otterbox) rugged enough for that. As far as docking in the Motorola appliance all I wonder is whether or not the 4G has enough graphics horsepower to service the monitor without starting to eat up a lot of CPU time. One of the main reasons I am interested in being able to do this is to be able to get photos off my camera into a USB drive. I shoot RAW format-so each picture takes around 20 MB of space.

Thanks everyone for the great input. Didnt realize I was going to start an intergalactic war tho :). Time to unscrew the peg for the day and have a drink......

Carr
 
Have a drink for me!

As for using it as a GPS on the hike... Take the GPSr. I've used mine on some SHORT hikes (Using the free "My Tracks" app). The GPS on the phones sucks battery like crazy!

Doing a short (8 Mile) hike, it drained the battery by 50% in 2 hours. (I was also in an area with mostly EDGE signal...).
A couple of week ago, some friends and I did a 15 mile hike up to Springer Mtn, and part of the Benton MacKey trail. It didn't make it. The battery just did not hold up.

Another hiker had one of those solar chargers on the top of her pack with a different Android phone in her pack. Even the solar charger could not keep her's juiced with the GPS and weak signal.
 
That is disappointing. I cycle and took the 4 G along today, not for a particularly long ride--10 miles. Ran the GPS. Didnt seem to make much difference in the battery. What I did do- I have another GPS on the handlebars, but I turned the GPS on the 4G on, got it to lock, had the map program going, shut the screen off and put it in my pocket. I stopped several times to check it and the position seemed always to be spot on but I have yet to figure out how to make it leave a trail of where I have been which my Garmin Oregon will do. Maybe if you are running the screen on all the time the graphics support is what eats the battery. Just a thought. I wonder if there are not other "frontends" for the map program using Google but allowing more features like a trail. I end up loading all of my own maps in the Oregon from a free topo site online and dont know about even attempting anything like that on the 4G. Of course with 32 GB addressable on the card one could put a lot of maps in the machine and get away from periodically having to go to the radio for downloads. I dont know whether how often it does downloads is zoom dependent or..... but that might explain part of the power hunger as well. I did find out my last itme in Central America that my Nokia had to have cell service to get the mps when using the GPS feature, something that failed me pretty badly because there are a lot of places there outside of the cities where there is no cell at all. Cup on a string time. I had specifically asked when I bought the phone whether the mapping could work from maps loaded on a card in the phone and was assured that it could. Experience proved different.

I get around 8-10 hours with the Oregon depending on what I am doing and on longer rides I do carry spare rechargeable AA's. I bet a lot of it was the Edge forcing the Tx in the phone to run full power. The Garmin of course has the maps internal but even so it can be hard on batteries dependingon what different features you have running. One thing I notice about the Garmin is that it has 2 different compasses--one magnetic and one direction derived from the GPS signal based on movement. If you run the magnetic compass enabled it shortens the battery life a fair amount. I wonder if the 4G isnt the same.

Ah yes drink time. Just got back on the bike from a drum circle about 4 miles from here in downtown Mobile. Definitely time for a drink.I am going to look at My Tracks. It may do some of what I would like to have.

Carr
 
carr said:
I have yet to figure out how to make it leave a trail of where I have been which my Garmin Oregon will do.
Click to expand...

Get the free "My Tracks" app from the market... Actually, I think mine was pre-loaded with it as it's a google app. Look for an Orange Arrow Icon.
https://market.android.com/details?id=com.google.android.maps.mytracks&feature=search_result


Here's a sample track of one of my local, Sunday morning hikes...
Little Mulberry - Google Maps

On the left side of the page, click on "Little Mullberry End" to get a popup window with a report of the speed/distance/elevation/time....

Many people also like "All Sport GPS" - it's another app.

As for me, when I'm tracking myself with the GPS, I start it, make sure WiFi and BT are off, turn off the screen, and put the phone in the leg pocket of my cargo shorts. I use my MP3 player for music, when I want it.

I think what kills my battery is not just the GPS, but the poor signal. Remember, when the signal goes down, the phone amp's up the radio (It has that ability). This can cause it to get warm, and suck the battery down. So, there you have the GPS taking readings every few seconds and logging them, and the radio running full blast to maintain a decent cell signal and the battery does not stand a chance!

That could be two factors in why yours didn't seem to drain.
1) you were probably in an area with decent coverage, so the phone didn't have to boost power to the radio.
2) it wasn't "Tracking" you.. just getting a fix when you looked at the phone to see where you were.
 
That is a pretty good hike :) I am a flatlander recently so that elevation would kill me LOL.

Got My Tracks. Have not had an opportunity to use it yet. Did put DroidWall on the phone as well as a couple of interesting tools, Open Signal for GSM and it will do WiFi as well as a program called GPS Status-- which when using the GPS I find useful in that it tells you about the GPS rx status where nothing I ve found on the phone will do that. Another tool I have discovered is WiFi Analyzer. All of these are in the Market..

Helped a friend root and rom a Pan digital novel tablet with CyanogenMod. Tablet thinks its a phone. Works though. Other than that CyanogenMod is pretty impressive.....

Carr
 
Unless the tablet is running HoneyComb, it's going to think it's a phone. That's because the non 3.x OS's are built and designed with the phone's in mind.

I use GPS Status a LOT. I'm a beta tester for an app developer. The app is for Geocaching (It's not on the market, YET - CacheSense - Paperless Geocaching for your BlackBerry - That's for the BB version that's been out for a couple of years now). We've been having a bug in the app where sorting the DB using the GPS can take FOREVER to get a fix. The developer was blaming how Android accesses the GPS. I pointed out how GPS Status get's a fix, usually in less than 5 seconds. And, if I launch that first, his app gets an instant fix. What I found was that I had set GPS status to pull the A-GPS XDATA at startup if it's older than 1 hour. We think that's what's giving the boost. So, now he's looking into integrating such a function into CacheSense to speed it up.
 
From my having spent a number of years at sea and used GPS, I like to be able to see what the system is doing. I was pretty amazed on how quickly the 4G GPS unit gets a fix from start-- your new app sounds interesting. I have not done any geocaching yet.

The Pan Digital does think its a phone. This brings up a question. I have always been under the impression that most Microsoft OS'es work from a static registry and therein lies some of the problems with stability. Linux OTOH I have always understood works with a dynamic "registry" if one will where its rebuilt at boot. That includes certain peripherals either being there or not. What surprised me when we burned the ROM into the tablet, was that the phone portion got loaded irrespective of whether the hardware was there or not. So that indicates to me that an Android ROM is like a pre installed version of Linux i.e. all of the expected devices are mapped, those drivers included along with their kernel hooks &c and the ware for "missing devices" gets loaded irrespective of the platform. I am beginning to have a little more of an understanding of what Android is from a very general perspective. One could argue then that if one had /src then it could be compiled for each platform.... or maybe not I dunno. It is an interesting OS. One thing I use is a program called Task manager--it has an option since the phone is rooted, to be able to force close whatever program or process you elect (from including said process on a list) minutes after the screen blanks. I have not tried this with any of the system processes but have used it for a number of things that keep running like the updating of a lot of the social networking apps, that apparently happens constantly.

As an aside I appreciate that the moderators and other forum members have been so tolerant of the thread drift here. I have learned a lot from this thread and want to express my appreciation to everyone here for the tolerance and interest. I am a noob and its made the experience educational, and I hope our ramblings have shed light into the corners of Android for other new people.

Carr
 
A ROM is basically an IMAGE of the OS, pre-packaged for a specific device. It's not like loading Windows or Linux where it checks what hardware is there and modifies the system.

The device does not "Check" for hardware on boot. Once the OS is unpacked on the device, it that tells the device what it has, and it accepts that. That's one reason why you can't take a ROM from one phone and load it on another. If you head over to the CyanogenMod site, you'll see, there is a version for EACH device they are developing for.

It's a VERY closed system because of the hardware, and the need to preserve space on the device. So, they don't bloat it down with things like hardware checks, a large listing of device drivers.... Each device gets an OS loaded that says "You have X Radio, Y CPU, Z WiFi Chip...." and the device goes with that.

The ROM developers can only "Strip" certain parts out. For a long time, I just accepted (Since I'm no a programmer) that the phone components were hard coded into the OS and could not be stripped out with the SDK the developers use. Even my ViewSonic G-Tablet that came with FroYo (2.2) had the "phone" parts embedded in the OS out of the box. I tried a couple of after market ROM's on it and they were there as well. A few weeks ago, I loaded the VeganTab ROM (Best ROM for the ViewSonic! It makes it out perform a co-workers Zoom!!!). I've yet to find the phone functions in the OS anywhere. It's GB build, meaning Google put them in there. But, the developer of this ROM either managed to Strip them out, or suppress them.

This was one of the things some developers liked about HoneyComb... it was a tablet only OS without the phone bits in there. Unfortunately, Google never released the source code for it (As far as I know).
 
Yep you have just confirmed what I began to suspect about the way Android is "boxed" if one will. That clears a number of things up and thanks very much for the information.

Since we are drifting around here and since we want to be conscious about what we are doing with all of that-- and particularly since I am running by choice a rooted phone-- I set up DroidWall today with what I consider a fairly restrictive ruleset about what can and can not call home. In the process I tried most of the apps on the phone. While doing that I flipped back and forth between task manager and the various apps. The question is this--

Most of these apps do not have any sort of exit key. the apparent way to get out of an app or go to something else is with the "return" button, the dedicated soft key on the bottom of the phone. When you use the return key to get out of an app does that end the app or is it suspended for an indefinite period of time. I notice that one can switch apps by holding down the home key which gives you a list of most recently used apps. As one trips merrily down the road in using different things, the most recently used apps fill this list and the ones not so recent disappear off the back end. In looking at TaskManager or Elixir (what a great program!) one can still see the app and the memory it reserves although when the app is not actually on the screen and doing some work there appears to be no CPU usage. I am curious about how terminating an app is different than merely suspending app A via use of the home key and selecting app B.

We can run a bunch of stuff in background in the nuxes--I understand that system processes do this routinely as well as suspended user apps with all of the different spawned child processes &c. We know as well how garbagy code can leave child processes spawned by a dead or closed application running, and how memory can gradually be eaten up by closed apps not freeing up memory reservations. I get the impression that Android does much the same thing as far as background stuff goes. What I do wonder is how clean things are. I dont like to go off and leave un needed stuff running and with the lack of an exit or close key on most of the apps in the phone I wonder what really happens...and they for sure do take up memory space. Taskmanager has a feature that will force close selected apps after 2 minutes of phone standby. I have put a bunch of stuff on that list with so far no ill effects.

Carr.
 
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