God or No God?

[A.Nonymous]

The problem of suffering the world is one that could well deserve it's own thread. Volumes and volumes and volumes have been written on the topic. Job in the Bible is a perfect example. He is (according to the Bible) a good and just man who serves God and shuns evil. All of his problems come from the Devil asking permission to basically torture the guy and God granting it. Why would a good, just and benevolent God grant an evil entity permission to torture one of his followers? Perhaps he's not as omnipotent as we think he is. But then why did Satan have to ask his permission? Maybe he's not as good as we think he is? I confess that I do not have a single good answer to any of those questions.

Does God exist? I can answer that question to my satisfaction (although likely not to the satisfaction of anyone else, but does that really matter?). Why is there suffering in the world when God has the power and the inclination (supposedly) to stop it? I have no idea.

 

[SUroot]

I fully respect ones beliefs and as such would not influence them in anyway but I am a firm believer in science and evolution.

Covers all I want to say really. Live and let live.

 

[mrqs]

"..that's just empathy." Some argue that empathy by any name has its origins with God. Those who argue against that as not needed, talk about survival of the herd, etc.

i wouldn't say it's "not needed" - theories are needed to find the truth
it's just that this particular theory seems so paradoxical: god is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if god did

 

[Frisco]

i wouldn't say it's "not needed" - theories are needed to find the truth
it's just that this particular theory seems so paradoxical: god is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if god did

"..god is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if god did.."

Saith many of the religious:

That quoted statement assumes the person talking fancies their wisdom superior to God's wisdom.

That it also assumes that the full range of human emotions would not exist in any world God created, including the negative, destructive ones (when in reality, free will would have no meaning if there were only one choice to make with it).

And that Heaven is supposed to be reserved for the "nothing negative" experience, not Earth, and one must qualify via one's God given free will in their lives to get to that Heaven.

 

[Stuntman]

Please understand, I never said once that I know the answer:

I seem to get the impession that some people (not necessarily you) use the fact that science do not provide all the answers as argument that God exists. It is as if people want to know that everything can be explained and is know and when there is unexplained unknowns, they use God as a fallback to be able to explain everything.

 

[Member243850]

I seem to get the impession that some people (not necessarily you) use the fact that science do not provide all the answers as argument that God exists. It is as if people want to know that everything can be explained and is know and when there is unexplained unknowns, they use God as a fallback to be able to explain everything.

Well I am glad you did not think that of me

We must of just got off on a bad foot and slight misunderstanding thats all


I am glad you did not take it badly, and my apologies.

But hell ja I agree with you, it is sad some people (maybe a great majority?) think they know that there is a God, when in reality and the truth is sadly, no body knows for 120% certainty that there is a God.

And I now wonder what would happen if everyone did know the answer?

If the answer said there is a God, would most people behave or what would happen?

And if the answer said there is no God... would everyone go crazy?

Very interesting questions... and sad too!

 

[mrqs]

"..god is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if god did.."

Saith many of the religious:

That quoted statement assumes the person talking fancies their wisdom superior to God's wisdom.

That it also assumes that the full range of human emotions would not exist in any world God created, including the negative, destructive ones (when in reality, free will would have no meaning if there were only one choice to make with it).

And that Heaven is supposed to be reserved for the "nothing negative" experience, not Earth, and one must qualify via one's God given free will in their lives to get to that Heaven.

do remember it was the word "suffering", not "evil" where all this came from

the claim you quoted was that no matter why suffering exists, it's a chance for others to help and (critically) that this empathy comes from god
the question we don't have a conclusive answer for is "why is there empathy towards the suffering", and the god-answer merely shifts more confusion to the question "why is there suffering"

i suffer, therefore one of these claims must be untrue:
a) god is omnipotent
b) god is benevolent
c) god exists
i choose option c)
and i don't see that there are any other options

That quoted statement assumes the person talking fancies their wisdom superior to God's wisdom.

no, it assumes the person talking fancies god not to exist

it assumes the person talking (me, in this case) fancies their wisdom superior to the wisdom of those who wrote the bible (among others)
i have the wisdom gained by dozens/hundreds of generations after them at my fingertips and my understanding of the universe and our place in it, while severely lacking, is obviously superior to anyone living hundreds/thousands of years ago


* i'm not going in to the whole after-life thing atm - maybe there should be separate threads for the different aspects of the god notion, like creation, after-life, life-controller etc.

 

[Frisco]

... it is sad some people (maybe a great majority?) think they know that there is a God, when in reality and the truth is sadly, no body knows for 120% certainty that there is a God.

I think that "knowing" is the second step in "believing" there is a god. For example, I believe there is honesty, benevolent, caring and loving at the core of every single human being ever born, but I don't really know that. I just believe it based on a strong suspicion.

That belief can be validated or trashed with logic, etc, unlike something that is possible to really know, such as the data on the right-hand side of a proven equation: 9+9=18, etc.

The god thing is pretty strange, as it is universal as to the hope for it, right along with being universal as to the denial of it, and even many, usually a minority, denying hope for it and declaring certainty that no such thing exists.

I lean strongly in the direction of atheism, without making a commitment to it for the reasons stated above along with: lack of proof either way, coupled with that sense of awe I mentioned in an earlier post, along with a desire to understand the origin and source of things such as love.

If there is a god, s/he's allowed humanity the ultimate challenge.

 

[mrqs]

I lean strongly in the direction of atheism, without making a commitment to it for the reasons stated above along with: lack of proof either way, coupled with that sense of awe I mentioned in an earlier post, along with a desire to understand the origin and source of things such as love.

agnostic is the word you're looking for

i usually refer to myself as an atheist, tho' that's a fairly generalizing term - no, i don't believe in god when it comes to most popular definitions, but i'd say i'm somewhat "agnostic" towards many of the notions that are closely related to god, such as the after-life (heaven/hell stuff not withstanding)

 

[Frisco]

agnostic is the word you're looking for

i usually refer to myself as an atheist, tho' that's a fairly generalizing term - no, i don't believe in god when it comes to most popular definitions, but i'd say i'm somewhat "agnostic" towards many of the notions that are closely related to god, such as the after-life (heaven/hell stuff not withstanding)

I'm not looking for a word, mrqs. I do not commit to "agnostic" for reasons inherent in my earlier post.

Those "isms" polarize people, imo. Even if the dictionary definition of a word regarding beliefs or lack thereof seems to fit a person, I do not refer to people in those terms unless they themselves declare that they identify with such terms.

 

[mrqs]

I'm not looking for a word, mrqs. I do not commit to "agnostic" for reasons inherent in my earlier post.

Those "isms" polarize people, imo. Even if the dictionary definition of a word regarding beliefs or lack thereof seems to fit a person, I do not refer to people in those terms unless they themselves declare that they identify with such terms.

if an italian guy, with italian heritage, refers to himself as japanese, i'm still going to say he's italian rather than japanese

 

[Frisco]

if an italian guy, with italian heritage, refers to himself as japanese, i'm still going to say he's italian rather than japanese

I don't feel that my notions of correctness trump another person's self-image and/or identity, no matter what reasons I may perceive to the contrary.

This is a good time to attempt to steer the thread back to the OP's question.

 

[SUroot]

if an italian guy, with italian heritage, refers to himself as japanese, i'm still going to say he's italian rather than japanese

Well it depends. Descent and national identity are 2 different things though.

 

[A.Nonymous]

I suffer as well as all humans do. I find that a good percentage of my suffering is brought on by myself. Would an omnipotent and benevolent god allow me to suffer at my own hand? I don't know. But there is certainly an amount of suffering in this world that we all go through and have little to no control over (disease jumps immediately to mind).

I have no answer for why this suffering exists, but I find existence in a universe that contains suffering and no entity exists with the power and/or inclination to relieve that suffering absolutely terrifying. If definitive proof was revealed tomorrow that God did not exist I would have no option but to accept it. Then I would probably wet myself in fear.

 

[mrqs]

this seems to be quickly turning in to an argument over semantics, which i'm not going to follow

instead, i'd quite like to hear others' thoughts on the view i presented earlier

i suffer, therefore one of these claims must be untrue:
a) god is omnipotent
b) god is benevolent
c) god exists
i choose option c)
and i don't see that there are any other options

*edit* i was typing while the previous post was made

I find existence in a universe that contains suffering and no entity exists with the power and/or inclination to relieve that suffering absolutely terrifying.

there are 7 billion people on this earth often with the power and inclination to relieve others' suffering - i find that comforting enough and don't see why the entity should be a god instead of human

 

[A.Nonymous]

Because humans only have limited powers to relieve suffering. If I have the flu (just to pick something mundane) God has the power to cure me. Humans can only give me chicken soup.

 

[Frisco]

Because humans only have limited powers to relieve suffering. If I have the flu (just to pick something mundane) God has the power to cure me. Humans can only give me chicken soup.

Humans giving you chicken soup are using their God-given compassion for your plight, perhaps?

Or they just want you to be able to get back to work and pay bills. .. but still.

 

[andruoid]

Because humans only have limited powers to relieve suffering. If I have the flu (just to pick something mundane) God has the power to cure me. Humans can only give me chicken soup.

Work in an office building for a give time, let's say, 5 years. Then, change jobs and work outside, eg; landscape for a season. Your immune system will go into shock and you will get sick. Why? Is that in some 'higher beings' plan? is there sickness in the afterlife? Or are we just subject to it here? ...I'll take the chicken soup with some spicy Vietnamese sauce, works wonders. ;-)

 

[mrqs]

Because humans only have limited powers to relieve suffering. If I have the flu (just to pick something mundane) God has the power to cure me. Humans can only give me chicken soup.

i don't think i understand you right...
you mentioned that you believe in the existence of a god (partly) because it's comforting to think there's an entity with the power and inclination to cure you, but you also recognize that if god had the power and inclination to cure you, you wouldn't have the flu in the first place and no one would have to give you chicken soup?

in any case, even if there's an entity that has the power and inclination to cure you, there's obviously some reason (whatever it may be) that he doesn't
so why is it more comforting to believe that the entity exists than not?

 

[Snow_Fox]

This is a very interesting post.

I must say I'm glad it hasn't deviated into semantics nearly as much as another forum I once visited where even the term "agnostic" was broken up into a million deviations and meanings, with spellings to match.

I will say that I am a straight forward agnostic. I lean more towards the atheist side than the believing in god side.

Call me crazy, but if any religion is "right" I would love for it to be the Greek mythology.

I respect people who seriously do their best to live according to their beliefs even if I do not personally agree with them.

 

[A.Nonymous]

i don't think i understand you right...
you mentioned that you believe in the existence of a god (partly) because it's comforting to think there's an entity with the power and inclination to cure you, but you also recognize that if god had the power and inclination to cure you, you wouldn't have the flu in the first place and no one would have to give you chicken soup?

in any case, even if there's an entity that has the power and inclination to cure you, there's obviously some reason (whatever it may be) that he doesn't
so why is it more comforting to believe that the entity exists than not?

I'm comforted by the fact that he/she/it could cure me. Why he/she/it chooses not to is a question I have no answers to. I classify myself as a fideist more than anything although I rarely admit it publicly as it usually invites inflamed criticism from both sides of the argument.

 

[mrqs]

I'm comforted by the fact that he/she/it could cure me.

that's interesting - i think i would be rather saddened than comforted to know there's someone/something that could cure me, but chooses not to for whatever unknown reason

I respect people who seriously do their best to live according to their beliefs

for something that sounds so simple and obvious, that's an incredibly difficult thing to do

 

[Snow_Fox]

for something that sounds so simple and obvious, that's an incredibly difficult thing to do

Consequentially a contributing factor in my agnosticism.

I found myself unwilling and unable to accept what I will loosely call the "reality of being a Christian."

 

[A.Nonymous]

that's interesting - i think i would be rather saddened than comforted to know there's someone/something that could cure me, but chooses not to for whatever unknown reason

If my car breaks down, it's comforting to know that someone out there has the knowledge/skills to fix it. There could be qualified auto mechanics who see me on the side of the road with smoke pouring out of the hood and just drive by and ignore me. The fact that they have the skills to fix my problem but choose to drive by doesn't sadden me. The fact that someone out there can fix my problem (if I pay them enough) is a comfort. If my car was dead on the side of the road there was not a single person in the world who had the skills to fix the car, then I would be in despair.

 

[Snow_Fox]

If my car breaks down, it's comforting to know that someone out there has the knowledge/skills to fix it. There could be qualified auto mechanics who see me on the side of the road with smoke pouring out of the hood and just drive by and ignore me. The fact that they have the skills to fix my problem but choose to drive by doesn't sadden me. The fact that someone out there can fix my problem (if I pay them enough) is a comfort. If my car was dead on the side of the road there was not a single person in the world who had the skills to fix the car, then I would be in despair.

A bit confusing to me..

If god can fix your problem, but chooses not to.. Then the fact that he can suddenly becomes irrelevant, because there is no way you can pay him, there is nothing you can give him he can't obtain regardless.

Reminds me of a discussion I once read about how "prayer" is arguably (from a third party perspective) one of the biggest sins there is. If you believe god is omniscient, then to pray for something you want is to go against what god, an omniscient being wants.