God or No God?

[A.Nonymous]

A bit confusing to me..

If god can fix your problem, but chooses not to.. Then the fact that he can suddenly becomes irrelevant, because there is no way you can pay him, there is nothing you can give him he can't obtain regardless.

Reminds me of a discussion I once read about how "prayer" is arguably (from a third party perspective) one of the biggest sins there is. If you believe god is omniscient, then to pray for something you want is to go against what god, an omniscient being wants.

The bolded part is what excites. You are correct. There is nothing I can give god that he/she/it doesn't already have or can't obtain if he/she/it wanted to. However, there have been many times in my life when I feel that God did intervene. Why would God intervene when I have nothing at all to offer him? I don't claim to know the answer to that either.

The prayer thing is fairly easily answered. We've all seen small children struggle with simple tasks. Sometimes a parent will let the child struggle because if mom or dad tied the kids shoes every time, the child would never learn how. Sometimes the child asks for help and the parent declines. Other times the parent does the simple task for the child without being asked. To the child, none of this makes sense. To an adult, and certainly to the parents, it makes all the sense in the world.

 

[Frisco]

A bit confusing to me..

If god can fix your problem, but chooses not to.. Then the fact that he can suddenly becomes irrelevant, because there is no way you can pay him, there is nothing you can give him he can't obtain regardless.

Reminds me of a discussion I once read about how "prayer" is arguably (from a third party perspective) one of the biggest sins there is. If you believe god is omniscient, then to pray for something you want is to go against what god, an omniscient being wants.

Some theists tell us that God's non-intervention in some human affairs is one of his gifts to us, in that it helps us to get along on our own at different levels of life, etc.

Other theists explain that he is intervening, just not always in ways perceptible to us or in a manner that we want him to intervene.

I think a god would know at the outset of creation that all this suffering was going to happen, and the outcome of each and every incident, etc. Humans would seem infinitely myopic in that regard, if we're to imagine this god as really knowing every single thing there is to know, that very mypoia including how we think we see what should and should not be intervened upon, let alone how it should be intervened upon.

 

[A.Nonymous]

This is interestingly similar to a question that often comes up in the pages of comic books. Superman is immensely powerful. Yet he doesn't fly around Metropolis putting out every single fire and stopping/solving every single crime in the city. He could. But instead he lets the firemen and the policemen do their job. Sure he'll put out a fire every once in a while and he'll step in and stop some guys from stealing a car, but for the most part he comes out when there's something big going on like a skyscraper on fire or some supervillian who has waltzed into Dodge and thinks he's the new sherrif in town. It's been established in several storylines that the reason why he doesn't do this is because if he does, the people in Metropolis are no longer protected by him, they're kept. Taking away their ability to face adversity and deal with it in their own way robs of them of certain aspects of their humanity. So Superman sits back and watches drought take place in the mid-west even though he's a farm boy by nature and understands the problem and he has the ability to fly in all the fresh water in the world if he chose to because if he does, people start to depend on him completely and become helpless if he's not around.

 

[Frisco]

This is interestingly similar to a question that often comes up in the pages of comic books. Superman is immensely powerful.

Yes.. as long as we're discussing imaginary beings.

lol .. sorry, I'm just joshin' ya.

Well, sort of.

 

[andruoid]

This is interestingly similar to a question that often comes up in the pages of comic books. Superman is immensely powerful. Yet he doesn't fly around Metropolis putting out every single fire and stopping/solving every single crime in the city.

So the Bible could then be considered a comic book of the time. An immensely powerful character created by peoples imagination put on paper/scrolls. Same way all religions start. Egos then come into play, instead of Superman vs Batman it's, for example, God vs Budha, my god is better than yours, etc.

Interesting.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Yes.. as long as we're discussing imaginary beings.

lol .. sorry, I'm just joshin' ya.

Well, sort of.

If God is an imaginary being, then like Superman I really do wish he existed as the world is a better place with him in it. However I can pretty definitively prove that Superman is not likely to exist at all. With God, not so much.

 

[mrqs]

If my car breaks down, it's comforting to know that someone out there has the knowledge/skills to fix it. There could be qualified auto mechanics who see me on the side of the road with smoke pouring out of the hood and just drive by and ignore me. The fact that they have the skills to fix my problem but choose to drive by doesn't sadden me. The fact that someone out there can fix my problem (if I pay them enough) is a comfort. If my car was dead on the side of the road there was not a single person in the world who had the skills to fix the car, then I would be in despair.

in the car scenario, you find comfort in the knowledge that there are people who know how to fix it and the fact that some of them just drive by, doesn't matter because there are others
but if god just drives by, there's not another one that could potentially fix it

We've all seen small children struggle with simple tasks. Sometimes a parent will let the child struggle because if mom or dad tied the kids shoes every time, the child would never learn how. Sometimes the child asks for help and the parent declines. Other times the parent does the simple task for the child without being asked. To the child, none of this makes sense. To an adult, and certainly to the parents, it makes all the sense in the world.

that's actually a really good metaphor, but the difference is that a child needs to do the chore themselves to learn, while the notion of a god declares omnipotence, which means god could have us learn without the learning process as we understand it

Superman sits back and watches drought take place in the mid-west even though he's a farm boy by nature and understands the problem and he has the ability to fly in all the fresh water in the world if he chose to because if he does, people start to depend on him completely and become helpless if he's not around.

again, what separates superman from god is that superman is not omnipotent - he knows there may come a time when he's not around, while for a god that would not be an issue

If God is an imaginary being, then like Superman I really do wish he existed as the world is a better place with him in it.

if superman does exist and lives on krypton that doesn't make the world a better place in any way
similarly, whether god exists or not, the world is as it is and is no better or worse for it

I can pretty definitively prove that Superman is not likely to exist at all. With God, not so much.

i'd say proving that superman doesn't exist is just as difficult as proving god doesn't exist

 

[A.Nonymous]

in the car scenario, you find comfort in the knowledge that there are people who know how to fix it and the fact that some of them just drive by, doesn't matter because there are others
but if god just drives by, there's not another one that could potentially fix it

So there's only one god then? Some religions would disagree with that.

that's actually a really good metaphor, but the difference is that a child needs to do the chore themselves to learn, while the notion of a god declares omnipotence, which means god could have us learn without the learning process as we understand it

Would that not defeat free will though? The child does have the option to walk away and not tie their shoes at all. Do you really have free will if some deity blasts all knowledge into our heads and never gives us the opportunity to learn? And then there's still the question of whether it's best for us. There are times parents sit down and teach their children things and there are times the parent lets the kid figure it out themselves. Again, to the child this is frustrating and puzzling because they lack the understanding to fully grasp what is going on. If we define god (which some would argue we can't do in the first place) as a supernatural being who is omnipotent and omniscient among other things, then we can also suppose that we, as beings of limited power and knowledge, lack the understanding to fully grasp why he/she/it behaves as he does.

again, what separates superman from god is that superman is not omnipotent - he knows there may come a time when he's not around, while for a god that would not be an issue

Do we know this for sure about god? Heck, the Klingons got ticked at their gods behavior and killed them all.

if superman does exist and lives on krypton that doesn't make the world a better place in any way
similarly, whether god exists or not, the world is as it is and is no better or worse for it

It does if you believe that God does involve himself in the affairs of man. Whether this involvement is good or bad is another question.

i'd say proving that superman doesn't exist is just as difficult as proving god doesn't exist

I can prove that it is extremely unlikely that Superman exists.

a) we know of no other intelligent life in the universe.
b) if there is other intelligent life in the universe the chances that it exists at the same time as we do and is close enough to fly here through the vast distances of space and possesses the technology to do so and possesses the inclination to do so and chooses to do are all slim.
c) a being that somehow takes the radiation from a yellow sun and gains amazing powers from it but is powerless under a red sun is unlikely as the radiation from the two suns are not much different. There are differences, but minor ones. We could live under a red sun with few problems assuming the Earth's orbit was close enough to get the proper amount of heat.
d) assuming the above are true, it would be extremely unlikely that such a being could operate without being detected by anyone

So I can say that it is extremely unlikely that Superman exists. With god, the same cannot be said. By definition, god is a supernatural being. By that definition alone, any rationality or rational means of proving or disproving his existence fails as a supernatural being is not bound by natural laws or reason.

 

[flcb7]

I;m god lol

 

[andruoid]

Superman is fictitious, he is a character co-created (procreated? ;-) ) by Joe Shuster & Jerry Siegel.

 

[mrqs]

So there's only one god then? Some religions would disagree with that.
[...]
Do we know this for sure about god? Heck, the Klingons got ticked at their gods behavior and killed them all.

i've been going by the definition of an omnipotent, omniscient entity
polytheism is a topic for another thread

Would that not defeat free will though? The child does have the option to walk away and not tie their shoes at all. Do you really have free will if some deity blasts all knowledge into our heads and never gives us the opportunity to learn? And then there's still the question of whether it's best for us. There are times parents sit down and teach their children things and there are times the parent lets the kid figure it out themselves. Again, to the child this is frustrating and puzzling because they lack the understanding to fully grasp what is going on. If we define god (which some would argue we can't do in the first place) as a supernatural being who is omnipotent and omniscient among other things, then we can also suppose that we, as beings of limited power and knowledge, lack the understanding to fully grasp why he/she/it behaves as he does.

this all boils down to the question of "why is there suffering" and i have never heard any god-including answer to that question that makes any sense to me

It does if you believe that God does involve himself in the affairs of man.

if all of the events occur one way regardless, how does it matter in any way?


*replies in red*

a) we know of no other intelligent life in the universe.
a god would count as intelligent life as well... as you said, we know of none
b) if there is other intelligent life in the universe the chances that it exists at the same time as we do and is close enough to fly here through the vast distances of space and possesses the technology to do so and possesses the inclination to do so and chooses to do are all slim.
this is not proof, this is conjecture - what are you basing any of this on? (that was rhetorical btw, let's try to keep on topic)
c) a being that somehow takes the radiation from a yellow sun and gains amazing powers from it but is powerless under a red sun is unlikely as the radiation from the two suns are not much different. There are differences, but minor ones. We could live under a red sun with few problems assuming the Earth's orbit was close enough to get the proper amount of heat.
the difference between visible light and ultraviolet is minor, but in our species, one is a contributing factor to skin cancer, while the other is not
d) assuming the above are true, it would be extremely unlikely that such a being could operate without being detected by anyone
see b)

So I can say that it is extremely unlikely that Superman exists. With god, the same cannot be said. By definition, god is a supernatural being.
superman is also a supernatural being by definition (the name is a bit of a giveaway...)

Superman is fictitious, he is a character co-created (procreated? ;-) ) by Joe Shuster & Jerry Siegel.

god is fictitious, he is a character co-created by moses, paul et al.

 

[damewolf13]

If you believe God is fictitous, what makes you think that Moses and Paul are real?

 

[Frisco]

If you believe God is fictitous, what makes you think that Moses and Paul are real?

To be fair, there are photographs and films of Moses Malone and Paul McCartney.


..etc.. sorry, not much humor in this thread.

 

[Member243850]

To be fair, there are photographs and films of Moses Malone and Paul McCartney.


..etc.. sorry, not much humor in this thread.

Hahahahaa!!

xD

LOL

You always crack me up Frisco!

But you are right, it is getting tense in here... and people have gone slightly off topic maybe by accident I don't know?

 

[darkestred]

There's more proof that god doesn't exit than he does. For as amazing a story (a story) the bible is there's always the buuut. And of course the diehards will always have an answer even though they base their beliefs on total faith. Its about as rational as believing that if you eat enough cheese you'll never die.

But, whatever you believe in whether to make life have purpose or meaning. So be it. I don't personally care if anyone finds what i said offensive, because im agnostic.

 

[Frisco]

The bible isn't the only story about God, of course. It's the story that got around to Western culture the fastest, as politics and religion were one and the same early in Middle-East and European history (still is in many countries of the Middle-East, of course).

There are and always have been people all around the world who believe in God and have never heard of the bible.. fewer and fewer as Christian missionaries carry out their agendas all over the place (Islamic ones, too, and the bible is an integral portion of Islamic faith, along with the Quran).

"God is everywhere" always meant to me, "God is believed everywhere." Always has been.

 

[Rlouka]

For all of you who say "God does not exist." The bible says you do believe he exist but you choose to suppress the truth with your evil (Romans 1). The bible also says that all knowledge is in Christ Jesus (Colossians 2:3). Any one who denies God can not prove anything to be true, only a Christian can know things. Want to see? Answer this question: How do you know what you know and how are you able to know it?

 

[Frisco]

This discussion has always had the potential of degenerating into a fight about the perceived rules of this or that particular religion. This is just a reminder that the thread is closely moderated, which means posts can and will be edited or removed that seem to seek to judge others.

Also, the thread can be closed at any moment.

The OP is, "God or No God?" not, "Are you evil or do you believe what I believe?" Keep that in mind, friends.

 

[A.Nonymous]

There's more proof that god doesn't exit than he does. For as amazing a story (a story) the bible is there's always the buuut. And of course the diehards will always have an answer even though they base their beliefs on total faith. Its about as rational as believing that if you eat enough cheese you'll never die.

But, whatever you believe in whether to make life have purpose or meaning. So be it. I don't personally care if anyone finds what i said offensive, because im agnostic.

I've never found any proof that god doesn't exist. Nor have I ever found any proof that god does exist. I'd be extremely interested in any proof that god doesn't exist. How do you prove that a supernatural being who isn't bound by our natural laws doesn't exist?

this all boils down to the question of "why is there suffering" and i have never heard any god-including answer to that question that makes any sense to me

I've never heard a good answer period.

 

[Frisco]

I've never heard a good answer period.

I have so failed.

 

[Member243850]

I have so failed.

Yup

 

[damewolf13]

For all of you who say "God does not exist." The bible says you do believe he exist but you choose to suppress the truth with your evil (Romans 1). The bible also says that all knowledge is in Christ Jesus (Colossians 2:3). Any one who denies God can not prove anything to be true, only a Christian can know things. Want to see? Answer this question: How do you know what you know and how are you able to know it?

The bible does not argue with anyone who does not believe in God, that they really do believe, and are just suppressing the truth with their evil.

Anyway, this is off topic.

 

[Chief714]

Didn't read everyone's posts and this might already be said, but I'll answer anyway.
As a Catholic, I believe that God exists and that Science and Religion Compliment one another. (when being used in a beneficial sense i.e. for good)
I look at the explanation of the immovable mover... Kind of clears it up for me. Ok... that's my 2 cents... I'm out... ;-)

 

[Frisco]

Not kidding.

The thread is turning into a thread about how the bible is interpreted, something that probably would not survive long in a thread of its own, let alone in one about the generic question as to whether or not a god exists.

Last chance, no more please.

 

[Frisco]

Should I be surprised that the warnings didn't work? The interesting discussion has degenerated into bible and other off topic posts. It's time.