God?

[n0ct3m]

I believe that God can be neither proven to be true nor be proven false. Both ideas are purely subjective when you really look at it. According to the Oxford Dictionary, an agnostic can be characterized as

a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

With both sides of the fence being subjective, this gives a person who is agnostic a much more logical stance in the whole matter.

On a side note, I have no issue with anyone and their religion as long as they do not force their ideas upon anyone. Everyone is entitled to their belief, whether it is the belief that God is real or the belief that God does not exist.

 

[byteware]

Ok, so since they offered them selves to be slaves, that doesn't make it slavery, then what is it? How is slavery good?

Actually, as has been pointed out already, we would call this indentured servitude today. Slavery commanded in the Bible doesn't meet our definition of slavery today.

The fact that you think I was talking about people I know personally.. is quite amusing.

The fact that you use the phrase... and I quote

I know alot of them"

And then get amused when I think you are talking about people you know personally... is quite distressing. It indicates a lack of understanding of English.

Isnt that called indentured servant?

Yes, today it would be.

And interestingly enough, it's part of how slavery began in the US (That's part... not the only way). People were promised passage to the US, if they would only work off their debt when they arrived. The problem was slave owners started charging them for room and board, etc... so that they could never ever pay off their debts.

 

[wubbie075]

I'm not going to go scripture by scripture, since you haven't even read to determine what the sentences are saying.

In Nehemiah, the Israelites were slaves. They were looking for their freedom.

Some of these are reprimands for making slaves in this manner.

The statement was "Back then slavery was voluntary". All I did was provide examples from the bible where it was not voluntary to refute that statement. I do not see how further context is required.

I mean, if you are simply going to look for a single sentence that sounds like it fits your point... then there's no point really arguing, is there?

May I quote this to the next christian who spouts scripture to make a point?

 

[byteware]

The statement was "Back then slavery was voluntary". All I did was provide examples from the bible where it was not voluntary to refute that statement. I do not see how further context is required.

That's because you don't know the context.

Wouldn't you say, that if they were "in slavery" to another nation and were talking about their sons and daughters being taken against their will...

That context is kind of important?

Or if they were being reprimanded for having slaves involuntarily... that context would be important?

May I quote this to the next christian who spouts scripture to make a point?

Sure, but you might want to make sure that his point only stands outside of Context.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I noticed a few pages back about teaching creationism in schools
This only happens in private schools, right?

 

[A.Nonymous]

I noticed a few pages back about teaching creationism in schools
This only happens in private schools, right?

Sadly, it happens in public schools too sometimes.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Sadly, it happens in public schools too sometimes.

 

[wubbie075]

I can play your game too:

Open up any religious tome and it states that it's goals are to change the hearts/lives of it's followers.

Prove it. Please directly me to where in any religious tome it says this.

Again, people said that over a thousand years ago.

Prove it. Tell me who said it over a thousand years ago.

People choose to follow a particular religion. No one forces me to be a Muslim or Jew or a Christian or a Wiccan or whatever. No one forces me to abide by a particular moral code.

This is an extraordinarily naive and misinformed statement. Yes, an individual can make an individual choice. But, by and large, people take the religion of their family or culture or region. It is fact borne out by every statistical examination.

But again, I'll play. Please describe the path you took to choose your religion. Please list each religion you considered before making your choise. Please explain in detail how you compared each one to make this choice. Did you make "Pro vs Con" lists? Did you attend services for each of these religions? Observe their respective holy days and ceremonies?

Finally, answer one more question. Is the religion you finally settled on the same one of your parents?

If I don't like the moral code of a particular religion, I can reject it and go find another religion or I can even claim that I'm a member of a particular religious denomination and ever accept any of it's teachings. Maybe that's to my good and maybe that's to my detriment, but it still is my choice.

I'll admit it is slightly easier to do this in the US than in many other places, but you simply cannot dismiss the social pressures with something like this. How many times were potential friendships nipped in the bud due to religious differences. How many marriages between two people who truly loved each other were forbidden due to religious differences. Do you know that there are still people in the US today that believe that jews have horns?? In those communities you think someone would just say "You know what, being jewish just makes so much sense, I'm gonna convert." There is a reason why christian groups keep trying to get prayer in schools, or creationism/ID in science curricula. The younger you expose children to these ideas the easier it is to convince them that they are the truth. It's called indoctrination.

And this is speaking only of the US. Try living an openly christian life in Iran. Try being a muslim in Mexico. Try being a jew.. well, almost anywhere. If you really think it is that easy to just choose to be a different religion when everyone else around you is following one specific one, you have never actually tried it.

And, these pressures go even futher when the choice is to reject religion entirely. For all the christians who attacked Obama because they believed he is a "secret muslim whose agenda includes insituting sharia law in the US", recent polls show that most people would prefer to elect a jewish or muslim president than an atheist.

Because of all this, I believe that a non-trivial segment of people who answer polls about religion and claim to be religious do so simply to avoid being judged for being an atheist. Whether this is conscious choice to hold their true feelings back or simple lack of self reflection and honesty depends on the individual.

 

[byteware]

This is an extraordinarily naive and misinformed statement. Yes, an individual can make an individual choice. But, by and large, people take the religion of their family or culture or region. It is fact borne out by every statistical examination.

Source please.

Finally, answer one more question. Is the religion you finally settled on the same one of your parents?

Similar, but not the same.

I'll admit it is slightly easier to do this in the US than in many other places, but you simply cannot dismiss the social pressures with something like this. How many times were potential friendships nipped in the bud due to religious differences.

I've never lost a friend to religious differences (and I've lived all over this country).

How many marriages between two people who truly loved each other were forbidden due to religious differences.

Not as many as have been forbidden because of race. Is race evil?

Do you know that there are still people in the US today that believe that jews have horns??

QTF IMI... Seriously, I've never even HEARD of that to begin with.

But even if it's true, do you realize that 15% of the US doesn't know that Alaska is a state?

In those communities you think someone would just say "You know what, being jewish just makes so much sense, I'm gonna convert."

Can you source that these "communities" exist?

There is a reason why christian groups keep trying to get prayer in schools, or creationism/ID in science curricula. The younger you expose children to these ideas the easier it is to convince them that they are the truth. It's called indoctrination.

That's funny. They claim the same thing about why it is being taken out. I guess it's point of view.

And this is speaking only of the US. Try living an openly christian life in Iran.

Theocracies are a beast unto themselves.

Try being a muslim in Mexico.

This is apparently a rapidly growing religion in Mexico, so they can't be treating them THAT badly.

If you really think it is that easy to just choose to be a different religion when everyone else around you is following one specific one, you have never actually tried it.

Wow... that's a vast and ignorant assumption. I have tried it. I was an atheist for a long time. I found no difference in the way Christians treated me before, or after they discovered I was an atheist. We got into some very interesting conversations though.

And, these pressures go even futher when the choice is to reject religion entirely. For all the christians who attacked Obama because they believed he is a "secret muslim whose agenda includes insituting sharia law in the US", recent polls show that most people would prefer to elect a jewish or muslim president than an atheist.

People prefer someone with similar beliefs to represent them... oooo surprise.

What an evil religious conspiracy.

Because of all this, I believe that a non-trivial segment of people who answer polls about religion and claim to be religious do so simply to avoid being judged for being an atheist. Whether this is conscious choice to hold their true feelings back or simple lack of self reflection and honesty depends on the individual.

BS. Polls don't release names. They are anonymous. Why in the world would people LIE on an anonymous poll because of Social pressure.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Prove it. Please directly me to where in any religious tome it says this.

I am not intimately familiar with Islam or Judaism so I won't presume to try to quote their doctrines. Christianity clearly states "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." It also says that God did not send his Son to condemn, but to save the world. It's very clear in the Bible what it's stated purpose is.

But again, I'll play. Please describe the path you took to choose your religion. Please list each religion you considered before making your choise. Please explain in detail how you compared each one to make this choice. Did you make "Pro vs Con" lists? Did you attend services for each of these religions? Observe their respective holy days and ceremonies?

Finally, answer one more question. Is the religion you finally settled on the same one of your parents?

I belong to the same denomination as my parents, but I don't practice my religion in the same way they do. I am happy with my religion so I have never considered other religions although I have been to services for other religions. My religion is not identical to my parents. My religion works for me. I see no harm in that.

I'll admit it is slightly easier to do this in the US than in many other places, but you simply cannot dismiss the social pressures with something like this. How many times were potential friendships nipped in the bud due to religious differences. How many marriages between two people who truly loved each other were forbidden due to religious differences. Do you know that there are still people in the US today that believe that jews have horns?? In those communities you think someone would just say "You know what, being jewish just makes so much sense, I'm gonna convert." There is a reason why christian groups keep trying to get prayer in schools, or creationism/ID in science curricula. The younger you expose children to these ideas the easier it is to convince them that they are the truth. It's called indoctrination.

I've never lost a friend because of religion. I've seen marriages forbidden because the two people were of different races, financial status, social status, ages, nationalities, etc.... Are all those things wrong too? Did you know that there are people in the US who believe that black people are a lesser species? I guess that means everyone in the US thinks that. As for Christians trying to get creationism into science curriculum, they're just idiots. There are idiots of every stripe in America, not just religious ones.

And this is speaking only of the US. Try living an openly christian life in Iran. Try being a muslim in Mexico. Try being a jew.. well, almost anywhere. If you really think it is that easy to just choose to be a different religion when everyone else around you is following one specific one, you have never actually tried it.

And, these pressures go even futher when the choice is to reject religion entirely. For all the christians who attacked Obama because they believed he is a "secret muslim whose agenda includes insituting sharia law in the US", recent polls show that most people would prefer to elect a jewish or muslim president than an atheist.

One can become a social outcast in any of the countries you listed above if they choose to become a Goth as well. Can you imagine if a Goth ran for President? How many votes would he get? Probably not very many. Society pressures us all to conform in a ton of ways. Is not being Goth bad? Society pressures us to not dress in black and only go out at night therefore those must be good behaviors.

Because of all this, I believe that a non-trivial segment of people who answer polls about religion and claim to be religious do so simply to avoid being judged for being an atheist. Whether this is conscious choice to hold their true feelings back or simple lack of self reflection and honesty depends on the individual.

Polls are anonymous. They also have a margin of error. Do you really think that when a poll says that 90-95% of Americans believe in God that the vast majority of those polled are lying through their teeth?

 

[wubbie075]

Source please.

I didn't make this up, but I suck at anything but the most superficial research so I will retract my statement about the studies.

Similar, but not the same.

How similar? But more to the point, if you were born to a drastically different culture/religion, say a budhist or hindu, do you believe you would have remained so, or found your way to the religion you currently hold?

I've never lost a friend to religious differences (and I've lived all over this country).

I'm happy for you (sincerly), but it happens.

Not as many as have been forbidden because of race. Is race evil?

I have not used the term "evil" to describe religion at any point in this discussion. Please do not attribute it to me.

QTF IMI... Seriously, I've never even HEARD of that to begin with.

Do Jews have devil horns
'Why do Jews have horns?' - National spiritual life | Examiner.com
Anti-Semitic Stereotypes of the Jewish Body - My Jewish Learning

I make no comment on these links or their authors whatsoever. I make no implication that you or anyone you know does or might feel this way. I am simply providing them since you say you have never heard that people think this.

But even if it's true, do you realize that 15% of the US doesn't know that Alaska is a state?

Relevant to the discussion how?

Can you source that these "communities" exist?

Possibly discussed in the links above. I've personally met more than one southern white christian males who admitted to being taught this at one point in their lives. Yes, only anectodal.

That's funny. They claim the same thing about why it is being taken out. I guess it's point of view.

Already been discussed at length earlier in the thread.

Theocracies are a beast unto themselves.

Agreed. But there are people who would like to turn the US into a christian theocracy. No direct source, but I've seen multiple sound bites of that nature on tv. I make no claims about how widespread this believe is.

This is apparently a rapidly growing religion in Mexico, so they can't be treating them THAT badly.

Latinos in general are a rapidly growing demographic in the US. They seem to be treated pretty badly in many sections of the country. But I don't want this to digress into an immigration discussion.

Wow... that's a vast and ignorant assumption. I have tried it. I was an atheist for a long time. I found no difference in the way Christians treated me before, or after they discovered I was an atheist. We got into some very interesting conversations though.

Well my comment was directly specifically at someone else, not at you. But I appreciate your input. I have had many great and interesting discussions (about religion) with christian/catholic friends, but I've also been persecuted by others. But I'm sure I am guilty of it going the other way too.

People prefer someone with similar beliefs to represent them... oooo surprise.

What an evil religious conspiracy.

Again, I never said evil.

BS. Polls don't release names. They are anonymous. Why in the world would people LIE on an anonymous poll because of Social pressure.

Another thing I did not make up, but cannot cite a source, so I'll let it go.

 

[wubbie075]

I am not intimately familiar with Islam or Judaism so I won't presume to try to quote their doctrines. Christianity clearly states "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." It also says that God did not send his Son to condemn, but to save the world. It's very clear in the Bible what it's stated purpose is.

But you did presume. You said "any religious tome", you did not limit it to your own. At any rate, what Jesus' purpose was or even what the bible's purpose is, is not the same as what the religion's purpose is.

I belong to the same denomination as my parents, but I don't practice my religion in the same way they do. I am happy with my religion so I have never considered other religions although I have been to services for other religions. My religion is not identical to my parents. My religion works for me. I see no harm in that.

So you did not, in fact, choose. Or at the very least, you did not make an informed choice. You decided you were satuisfied with what you were given and left it at that. In itself, there's nothing wrong with that. I will ask the same question I asked byte: If you were born hindu or budhist, do you believge you would have found your way to christianity?

I've never lost a friend because of religion. I've seen marriages forbidden because the two people were of different races, financial status, social status, ages, nationalities, etc.... Are all those things wrong too?

Of course all those things are wrong too. What does that have to do with what we are discussing?

This is a thread about religion and god. So, I am discussing things that relate to religion and god. If you want to start a thread about race, social status, etc I'll be happy to give you my opinions on those topic in there. I will also refrain from giving my opinions on religion and god in those other threads.

Did you know that there are people in the US who believe that black people are a lesser species? I guess that means everyone in the US thinks that. As for Christians trying to get creationism into science curriculum, they're just idiots. There are idiots of every stripe in America, not just religious ones.

I don't see how what you said follows at all from what I said. As I said above, I am limiting my discussion on religious idiots (your word, not mine) and ignoring other kinds of idiots.

Back to the topic at hand, I personally lost a woman I loved, who claimed to love me, who admitted that we did not disagree on any significant issue of morality or lifestyle, except for the fact that she is catholic and I do not believe in god. I am certainly not the only person this has happened to. I also will not claim that it has never been the atheist who was the one to end similar relationships. I am sure that happens too, and in those cases, the atheist is just as wrong to do so.

However, I do believe it is much more likely that a religious family would forbid a child to marry someone because of a different religion or lack thereof, than an atheistic family would forbid their child to marry a religious person.

I myself am actually a child of mixed religion. My mother is catholic and my father is jewish. Both sides of the fmily were vehemently opposed to the marriage. My parents simply chose to ignore that and marry anyway. But, the only time in my entire life I ever saw members of both sides of the family in one room at the same time was my sister's funeral.

One can become a social outcast in any of the countries you listed above if they choose to become a Goth as well. Can you imagine if a Goth ran for President? How many votes would he get? Probably not very many. Society pressures us all to conform in a ton of ways. Is not being Goth bad? Society pressures us to not dress in black and only go out at night therefore those must be good behaviors.

A goth who identified himself as christian and claimed Jesus as his lord and savior would get more votes than an atheist who otherwise actually lived his life closely following christian ideals.

Polls are anonymous. They also have a margin of error. Do you really think that when a poll says that 90-95% of Americans believe in God that the vast majority of those polled are lying through their teeth?

How do you read the words "a non-trivial segment" and translate that into "the vast majority"??

 

[A.Nonymous]

But you did presume. You said "any religious tome", you did not limit it to your own. At any rate, what Jesus' purpose was or even what the bible's purpose is, is not the same as what the religion's purpose is.

Other religions claim the same purpose. I'm operating under the assumption that these claims are based on their religious writings. I could be incorrect. If I am, feel free to correct me. If a member of a particular religion makes a claim about their religion, I confess I tend to take it at face value if it's consistent with the way I've seen them behave. It seems as if you're claiming that Christianity's purpose is different from what is espoused in the Bible. How so?

So you did not, in fact, choose. Or at the very least, you did not make an informed choice. You decided you were satuisfied with what you were given and left it at that. In itself, there's nothing wrong with that. I will ask the same question I asked byte: If you were born hindu or budhist, do you believge you would have found your way to christianity?

No. I chose. I could choose another religion or I could've chosen to stick with the one I grew up with. For various reasons I chose the latter. I live in the same city I was born in. I'm told that this is true for the vast majority of people. Would you claim that the vast majority of people are forced/coerced/whatever to live where they do?

Of course all those things are wrong too. What does that have to do with what we are discussing?

This is a thread about religion and god. So, I am discussing things that relate to religion and god. If you want to start a thread about race, social status, etc I'll be happy to give you my opinions on those topic in there. I will also refrain from giving my opinions on religion and god in those other threads.

So religion is wrong, race is wrong, social status is wrong, economic status is wrong. What is right then? A bunch of faceless automatons? Your argument was that religion is bad because it breaks apart marriages. By that argument there are an entire crap load of things that are bad. I've seen marriages break up over all the things I listed above. That doesn't make any or all of them bad.

People don't like people who are different from them. It's not a religious thing at all. It's a people thing.

I don't see how what you said follows at all from what I said. As I said above, I am limiting my discussion on religious idiots (your word, not mine) and ignoring other kinds of idiots.

Idiots are idiots. They come in different flavors. You point out someone who's a religious idiot as an example that religion is bad. I point out someone who is a racist idiot. Having races is bad apparently. I could point out the <insert political party here> idiot who hates all who oppose him. Are political parties therefore bad? Idiots are idiots. The politics, their race, their religion, etc... doesn't make them an idiot. They were an idiot to begin with.

Back to the topic at hand, I personally lost a woman I loved, who claimed to love me, who admitted that we did not disagree on any significant issue of morality or lifestyle, except for the fact that she is catholic and I do not believe in god. I am certainly not the only person this has happened to. I also will not claim that it has never been the atheist who was the one to end similar relationships. I am sure that happens too, and in those cases, the atheist is just as wrong to do so.

However, I do believe it is much more likely that a religious family would forbid a child to marry someone because of a different religion or lack thereof, than an atheistic family would forbid their child to marry a religious person.

And I have seen couples break up because he belonged to one political party and she to another. I've seen them break up because to her having kids was extremely important and he didn't want any. Are kids evil because they break up couples? I feel your pain, but you can't blame it solely on religion. There are a million potential reasons why people break up. Take religion out of the picture completely and there are still a million reasons why people break up.

My grandparents did not approve at all of my dad marrying my mom because they are of different race. They actively tried to break them up, boycotted their wedding and refused to speak with them for several years afterwards. My parents were a couple that could've easily broken up (but then you would not have the pleasure of reading my posts) and religion was not a factor at all. In fact, them sharing a religion is part of what kept them together. Now that I think of it, I owe my very existence to religion, therefore I must conclude that it is the greatest thing on the planet no matter who invented it. How could anyone argue with that?

I myself am actually a child of mixed religion. My mother is catholic and my father is jewish. Both sides of the fmily were vehemently opposed to the marriage. My parents simply chose to ignore that and marry anyway. But, the only time in my entire life I ever saw members of both sides of the family in one room at the same time was my sister's funeral.

This was very nearly the case with my grandparents. Fortunately my parents were able to patch things up.

A goth who identified himself as christian and claimed Jesus as his lord and savior would get more votes than an atheist who otherwise actually lived his life closely following christian ideals.

I really doubt that. I confess I have no way of testing it one way or the other though.

How do you read the words "a non-trivial segment" and translate that into "the vast majority"??

I read it wrong. My mistake. Nevertheless, I'd like to see what you have to back up that assertion.

 

[bbrosen]

Do you not get that the original bible has never been found? and that NO ONE KNOWS what it actually said...?

Like me, you cant honestly say with certainty that the Modern Day Bible is ANYTHING like the Original.

There never was an original Bible. Ever. anywhere. The modern day bible as we know it is a collection of writings spanning a wide swath of time from an eclectic bunch of writers and scholars and followers.

 

[wubbie075]

I think we've just about reached the point where we're just going to be bouncing the same things we've already said back and forth repeatedly, so I may choose not to address some of your points, and try to stick to ones I can add something new or at least a little more clarification.

Other religions claim the same purpose. I'm operating under the assumption that these claims are based on their religious writings. I could be incorrect. If I am, feel free to correct me. If a member of a particular religion makes a claim about their religion, I confess I tend to take it at face value if it's consistent with the way I've seen them behave. It seems as if you're claiming that Christianity's purpose is different from what is espoused in the Bible. How so?

My opinion is that regardless of how it started, whether the intention was benign or not, religion is used more as a means of control (both on an individual level and on a larger scale with political). They have a long history of stifling progressive thought of any kind. The catholic church is pretty much the prime example of that, but most smaller churches, parishes, congregations, etc. do the same thing, whether it is in social areas, education or politics.

No. I chose. I could choose another religion or I could've chosen to stick with the one I grew up with. For various reasons I chose the latter. I live in the same city I was born in. I'm told that this is true for the vast majority of people. Would you claim that the vast majority of people are forced/coerced/whatever to live where they do?

In my opinion, "not choosing to change" is not the same thing as "choosing not to change". Based upon your response, it feels much more like the first one, but the difference is probably just semantics and not worth arguing.

So religion is wrong, race is wrong, social status is wrong, economic status is wrong. What is right then? A bunch of faceless automatons? Your argument was that religion is bad because it breaks apart marriages. By that argument there are an entire crap load of things that are bad. I've seen marriages break up over all the things I listed above. That doesn't make any or all of them bad.

Add "bias due to" in front of each of your items listed above and you will be a lot closer to what I am trying to say. The distinction of religion to the other items, though, is that many religions (christianity included) have the doctine of spreading the word of their god to people who just don't want to hear it. I'm not the thought police. Believe what you wanna believe. Just leave me alone to live my life the way I choose to.

If religious people would would stop trying to interject the way they choose to live their lives into my life, I still wouldn't "like" religion, but I could easily say "live and let live". I'm not accusing you specifically of this, just speaking generally.

If the KKK limited itself to complaining about black people and jews in the privacy of their homes I wouldn't care one bit whether it exist. The problem is they have a bad habit of attacking people on the basis of race

Idiots are idiots. They come in different flavors. You point out someone who's a religious idiot as an example that religion is bad. I point out someone who is a racist idiot. Having races is bad apparently. I could point out the <insert political party here> idiot who hates all who oppose him. Are political parties therefore bad? Idiots are idiots. The politics, their race, their religion, etc... doesn't make them an idiot. They were an idiot to begin with.

Well I actually do think political parties are bad and are doing a great job of ****ing up our country. And I have actually thought many times about whether race is bad, and I actually think it is. I believe that if a selective eugenic breeding program was implements to "even out" all the races and make us all just "human" the world would be a better place.

My grandparents did not approve at all of my dad marrying my mom because they are of different race. They actively tried to break them up, boycotted their wedding and refused to speak with them for several years afterwards. My parents were a couple that could've easily broken up (but then you would not have the pleasure of reading my posts) and religion was not a factor at all. In fact, them sharing a religion is part of what kept them together. Now that I think of it, I owe my very existence to religion, therefore I must conclude that it is the greatest thing on the planet no matter who invented it. How could anyone argue with that?


This was very nearly the case with my grandparents. Fortunately my parents were able to patch things up.

I am glad, for your sake, that they did stick it out.

I read it wrong. My mistake. Nevertheless, I'd like to see what you have to back up that assertion.

As I said, I don't remember where I heard/read it.

 

[byteware]

I didn't make this up, but I suck at anything but the most superficial research so I will retract my statement about the studies.

Respectable

How similar? But more to the point, if you were born to a drastically different culture/religion, say a budhist or hindu, do you believe you would have remained so, or found your way to the religion you currently hold?

Probably.

Do Jews have devil horns
&#039;Why do Jews have horns?&#039; - National spiritual life | Examiner.com
Anti-Semitic Stereotypes of the Jewish Body - My Jewish Learning

These websites all attempt to debunk a myth (and apparently source the myth to different places). However, I can't seem to find a single website that purports that this myth is true.

Relevant to the discussion how?

Stupidity isn't limited to the religious.

Agreed. But there are people who would like to turn the US into a christian theocracy. No direct source, but I've seen multiple sound bites of that nature on tv. I make no claims about how widespread this believe is.

I'm aware. However, stupidity isn't limited to religion. Neither are the actions of a few indicative of the entire religion either.

Latinos in general are a rapidly growing demographic in the US. They seem to be treated pretty badly in many sections of the country. But I don't want this to digress into an immigration discussion.

True, but there is a difference between illegal immigration and people who you've known all your life converting to a different religion.

Another thing I did not make up, but cannot cite a source, so I'll let it go.

Also respectable.

 

[A.Nonymous]

My opinion is that regardless of how it started, whether the intention was benign or not, religion is used more as a means of control (both on an individual level and on a larger scale with political). They have a long history of stifling progressive thought of any kind. The catholic church is pretty much the prime example of that, but most smaller churches, parishes, congregations, etc. do the same thing, whether it is in social areas, education or politics.

Religion is no different than anything else. Nationalism is used for control. Politics is used for control. Heck, emotions are used for control. I think every single one of us have met someone in our life (usually a parent, SO or a child) who attempts (and sometimes succeeds) in emotional manipulation. This doesn't make religion, nationalism, politics or emotions evil. They simply are. They can be used for good or evil. I have a hammer in my hand. I can use it to build a home for the homeless (good) or I can use it bash in a homeless guys head (bad). Is the hammer bad or good? It's neither. It's simply evil. How I use it makes it bad or good.

Benny Hinn is a con man and a fraud this makes him a bad man. If you waved a magic wand and religion disappeared completely, he'd still be a con man and a fraud he'd just be doing something else to con people instead of his religious routine. Fred Phelps is a hateful bigot. If religion disappeared completely, he'd still be a hateful bigot. Getting rid of the priesthood wouldn't get rid of pedophilia. Those people would still be pedophiles, they just wouldn't be priests. Religion is just a tool those people use. Get rid of my hammer and I'll just use a rock instead. Get rid of religion and these people who want to control people will simply use something else.

Add "bias due to" in front of each of your items listed above and you will be a lot closer to what I am trying to say. The distinction of religion to the other items, though, is that many religions (christianity included) have the doctine of spreading the word of their god to people who just don't want to hear it. I'm not the thought police. Believe what you wanna believe. Just leave me alone to live my life the way I choose to.

If religious people would would stop trying to interject the way they choose to live their lives into my life, I still wouldn't "like" religion, but I could easily say "live and let live". I'm not accusing you specifically of this, just speaking generally.

If you really and truly believed that anyone who did not embrace your religion was doomed to spend an afterlife in horrible agony wouldn't it be rather cruel to not tell other people about your religion? Wouldn't you be a bad person to just let people go on their way? Just throwing that out there.

If the KKK limited itself to complaining about black people and jews in the privacy of their homes I wouldn't care one bit whether it exist. The problem is they have a bad habit of attacking people on the basis of race

I have never heard of a religious person attacking and killing or beating someone because they were an atheist. Perhaps it has happened and I simply don't know about it. I have heard of the KKK attacking those of other races and killing and/or beating someone because they were of a different race.

Well I actually do think political parties are bad and are doing a great job of ****ing up our country. And I have actually thought many times about whether race is bad, and I actually think it is. I believe that if a selective eugenic breeding program was implements to "even out" all the races and make us all just "human" the world would be a better place.

I am not going to touch any of that other than to say I disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Frisco]

"Benny Hinn is a con man and a fraud this makes him a bad man. If you waved a magic wand and religion disappeared completely, he'd still be a con man and a fraud he'd just be doing something else to con people instead of his religious routine."

"Fred Phelps is a hateful bigot. If religion disappeared completely, he'd still be a hateful bigot. Getting rid of the priesthood wouldn't get rid of pedophilia. Those people would still be pedophiles, they just wouldn't be priests. Religion is just a tool those people use. Get rid of my hammer and I'll just use a rock instead. Get rid of religion and these people who want to control people will simply use something else."

Absolutely agree. All we have to do to prove that is have a look at the countries where religion is either discouraged or outlawed and we find "leaders" spouting ideology, threats and promises about why everybody should be a (communist, loyal follower of the emperor/king etc) along with sponging the people's money as one important condition of their "salvation."

That is about organized religion and organized political entities, though. I have a firm belief that religion can provide something needed in some individuals, and that it has a central concept that is good. It is when leaders emerge, other than the founder of a particular faith, perhaps, in some cases, that we find exploitation and strange, even dangerous behaviors.

 

[LoyalServant]

The purpose of organized religion is control and power.
Having faith is one thing.
Being told to plop your money down for it is another.

Ever wonder why mega churches ask for credit references and pay stubs?

Faith is a good thing.. some people need a warm, fuzzy feeling that when they die they get a bunch of virgins or a 'perfect place' to go and that their existence won't end.

It also keeps some in check... 'no I won't steal because god is watching'

The problem with society today is that you have one group of people that want the rest of us to do what THEY want, not what you want, citing that it's the will of the various deities telling them to do it....

 

[byteware]

The purpose of organized religion is control and power.
Having faith is one thing.
Being told to plop your money down for it is another.

Never been told to plop my money.

Ever wonder why mega churches ask for credit references and pay stubs?

Never wondered. Not one single time. Never heard of it happening either.

The problem with society today is that you have one group of people that want the rest of us to do what THEY want, not what you want, citing that it's the will of the various deities telling them to do it....

Yep... that's a problem with ANY ideology... not just religion. See the Democrats/Republican debate.

 

[Knewz]

Never been told to plop my money.

I think he just worded that incorrectly. Most organized religions require, or suggest, returning a portion of your income(not just monetary but anything of trade value) based on the belief that what you have receive was given by *insert higher being*. It's a sign of faith, comparable to making an investment in a weird sorta way. Now i will say i have been to churches that pretty much demand money and pretty much say the more you pay the more sins are forgiven. Churches have evolved from a place of worship to business that allows religion.

 

[byteware]

I think he just worded that incorrectly. Most organized religions require, or suggest, returning a portion of your income(not just monetary but anything of trade value) based on the belief that what you have receive was given by *insert higher being*. It's a sign of faith, comparable to making an investment in a weird sorta way. Now i will say i have been to churches that pretty much demand money and pretty much say the more you pay the more sins are forgiven. Churches have evolved from a place of worship to business that allows religion.

I'm familiar with tithing, but it's always been optional, and no one ever kept up with who gave what when.

 

[A.Nonymous]

The purpose of organized religion is control and power.

Based on what? Organized religions have never claimed this is their purpose.

Having faith is one thing.
Being told to plop your money down for it is another.

I've yet to find a church that charges admission.

Ever wonder why mega churches ask for credit references and pay stubs?

Just to attend services?? I've never ever heard of this practice. Link please?

The problem with society today is that you have one group of people that want the rest of us to do what THEY want, not what you want, citing that it's the will of the various deities telling them to do it....

And you have groups of people in society who want the rest of us to what THEY want and they're not even religious at all and don't pretend to be. There are many, many groups in society that are evil. Heck, I just got a bill from the state for tags on my car. I legally purchased my car. My tax dollars already pay for the roads I drive on. Why do I have to pay drive a car? THEY are forcing me to do what THEY want me to do because it's purely THEIR will. Therefore government is evil.

 

[Knewz]

I'm familiar with tithing, but it's always been optional, and no one ever kept up with who gave what when.

Not just tithing but offering in general. Of course all giving in optional but what is pushed is that by giving you are somehow absolved, and the sad part is people believe that and give more and more(money).

P.S. actually tithe is tax deductible so they do keep up

 

[jamor]

To be fair, many Christian organizations do not require any monetary donation.

I grew up Catholic and they just pass around a money basket. There is no pressure to put any money in.