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God?

Read both the old and new testaments.

Repeatedly.

Which translations? Or did you read them in the original Greek and Hebrew? ;)

You do realize that each translation and the subsequent translation of translations changed both the context and interpretation of the Scriptures -- some significant, some not so, but many divergent with competing translations.

My father was a biblical scholar (Doctorate from Princeton) and practicing Presbyterian Minister, hence my familiarity with the Scriptures, understanding of religion and periodic need for therapy.
 
Which translations? Or did you read them in the original Greek and Hebrew? ;)

Don't know Greek or Hebrew. KJV, NIV, NIV (2011), and NKJV.

You do realize that each translation and the subsequent translation of translations changed both the context and interpretation of the Scriptures -- some significant, some not so, but many divergent with competing translations.

Absolutely. but I believe in an All powerful God, and that leads me to believe that each translation says he wants said. It may not be the original meaning, but I cannot see God as just if people don't even have access to the correct teachings.

My father was a biblical scholar (Doctorate from Princeton) and practicing Presbyterian Minister, hence my familiarity with the Scriptures, understanding of religion and periodic need for therapy.

lol, driving you crazy is he?
 
Actually, if you believe the Bible, God created the serpent knowing that Adam and Eve would be tempted and fall.

If you believe the Bible, God created Satan (God created everything in existence).

Satan has a sinful nature.

God created Satan with a sinful nature.

No. God created Satan with an angelic nature. (Again, if you believe the Bible.) Satan decided that he wanted to be like God and maybe even be God so he started a rebellion in Heaven along with a third of the angels. God laid the smackdown on them and kicked them out of Heaven. Satan retaliated by tempting Adam and Eve to sin. Adam and Eve chose to sin. No one forced them to. They made that choice. Now we all have to deal with it. Again, that's according to the Biblical account. Not saying it's true or not true, just saying that's the Biblical account.
 
No. God created Satan with an angelic nature. (Again, if you believe the Bible.)

Prove it. Using the Bible.

Edited to add: This is one of the most interesting misconceptions. It's nowhere in the Bible, and yet people accept it as fact without questioning it.
 
Prove it. Using the Bible.

Edited to add: This is one of the most interesting misconceptions. It's nowhere in the Bible, and yet people accept it as fact without questioning it.

That particular revelation (pardon the pun) is found in the Apocryphal Gospels, not generally recognized as part of Biblical Scripture.

A cursory "Wiki" explanation can be found here, about halfway down the page.

Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
...I believe in an All powerful God, and that leads me to believe that each translation says he wants said. It may not be the original meaning, but I cannot see God as just if people don't even have access to the correct teachings.

I have learned over the years that it is both futile and dangerous to come between a man and his beliefs, his family, or his firearm ... in that order.

lol, driving you crazy is he?

Not only has that ship sailed, it's on its return voyage.
 
I'm aware, though I've not read them. Most people have no idea why they believe that Satan was once an Angel.

The Bible implies/infers it in several passages is why. Re-reading the passages in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Luke and Revelation and I can certainly see your point. It's not explicitly laid out, but the implication is there. I can certainly see where it's open to interpretation.
 
The Bible implies/infers it in several passages is why. Re-reading the passages in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Luke and Revelation and I can certainly see your point. It's not explicitly laid out, but the implication is there. I can certainly see where it's open to interpretation.

I think it's a possible interpretation, but I don't think it's the one you would go to, unless you already believed that Satan was at one time an angel to begin with.
 
I think it's a possible interpretation, but I don't think it's the one you would go to, unless you already believed that Satan was at one time an angel to begin with.

Ezekial 28 refers to him as a "annointed cherub" and says that he was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him. To be completely fair, this is literally directed at the king of Tyre. It is entirely within the realm of believability that this is an analogy referring to Satan though as it speaks of him becoming full of pride and being cast down which is consistent with the other passages of scripture as well. It also speaks of him being on the mountain of God and being in Eden as well. I will admit it is certainly not crystal clear on the subject.
 
God Created Righteous Lucifer; Lucifer Created Wicked Satan

Daily Bible Study - Who Created Satan?

Bob

Bob, it was long ago determined that Lucifer is a "Latin" word used for the original "morning star".

Lucifer is NOT a name in this passage. It never was.

Edited to add:

http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

Ezekial 28 refers to him as a "annointed cherub" and says that he was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him. To be completely fair, this is literally directed at the king of Tyre. It is entirely within the realm of believability that this is an analogy referring to Satan though as it speaks of him becoming full of pride and being cast down which is consistent with the other passages of scripture as well. It also speaks of him being on the mountain of God and being in Eden as well. I will admit it is certainly not crystal clear on the subject.

Son of Man refers to humanity. Not Satan. How would you even rationalize that Son of Man meant Satan?
 
Prove it. Using the Bible.

Edited to add: This is one of the most interesting misconceptions. It's nowhere in the Bible, and yet people accept it as fact without questioning it.

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
Revelation 12:1-4
Now prove to me where in the Bible it says that the Bible alone is the source of all divine revelation.
 
Revelation 12:1-4
Now prove to me where in the Bible it says that the Bible alone is the source of all divine revelation.

Which bible should we check? We can surely find answers in one of these volumes:

Septuagint - 250 A.D. Written in Greek
Vulgate- 400 A.D. First version of the Bible
Luther's German Bible- 1534 A.D.
King James Version- 1611 A.D.
Revised Standard Version- 1952 A.D.
New International Version- 1960's & 70's A.D.
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Youngs Literal Translation

There are more than 30 assorted translations. Not to mention, you must always consider that some other world religion might have it right and the bible is just stories. And since much can be lost in translation, perhaps we go with the Vulgate? Or the Chinese Union or Westminster Leningrad Codex, perhaps?

Hundreds of "bibles" and assorted "Good Books" and nobody alive; no Christian Scholar, no Priest, Rabbi, or Minister can pull a single volume off the shelf and proclaim it to be the "one, true word" and prove it.

I say believe if you want and read whatever bible you wish. Be happy, but do not argue this because you are either 100% correct or 100% wrong and I can prove it. Depending on the particular Good Book I select.

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.

There is a great search tool at the above site and you can search a vast number of bibles by keyword or passage. It is interesting that some/many things appear in one bible and are absent from others.

Bob
 
This is from Atheism Quotes

These quotes are those on both sides. :)

Atheism Quotes

...A dialogue between atheists and Christians.....

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. -- Heywood Broun

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathon Miller

It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. --Mohandas Gandhi

Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist. --C. S. Lewis

There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt. --Mignon McLaughlin

A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous. --C.S. Lewis

We find the most terrible form of atheism, not in the militant and passionate struggle against the idea of God himself, but in the practical atheism of everyday living, in indifference and torpor. We often encounter these forms of atheism among those who are formally Christians. - Nicolai A. Berdyaev

Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God. -- Tom Stoppard

If atheism spread, it would become a religion as intolerable as the ancient ones. --Gustave le Bon

You think you are too intelligent to believe in God. I am not like you. --Napoleon Bonaparte

An atheist may be simply one whose faith and love are concentrated on the impersonal aspects of God. --Simone Weil

The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank.--Dante Gabriel Rossetti

If there were no God, there would be no atheists. --G.K. Chesterton

Can one be a saint if God does not exist? That is the only concrete problem I know of today. –Albert Camus

By night, an atheist half-believes in God. –Edward Young

If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is. [So] you must wager. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is.-- Blaise Pascal

I have always considered "Pascal's Wager" a questionable bet to place. Any God worth "believing in" would surely prefer an honest agnostic to a calculating hypocrite. -- Alan Dershowitz

"Belief" is not something you can turn on and off like a spigot. No person can truly "believe in God" unless the evidence convinces his or her mind. If you don't believe me, try believing that the stars are holes punched into a heavenly dome, with the light of heaven shining through. Pascal's recommendation is inherently impractical. --Dave Matson

If there be a God and one has never sought him, it will be small consolation to remember that one could not get proof of his existence. –George MacDonald

Well, I tell you, if I have been wrong in my agnosticism, when I die I'll walk up to God in a manly way and say, Sir, I made an honest mistake. --H. L. Mencken

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. --Bertrand Russell

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. -- Thomas Jefferson

My studies in Speculative philosophy, metaphysics, and science are all summed up in the image of a mouse called man running in and out of every hole in the Cosmos hunting for the Absolute Cheese.-- Benjamin DeCasseres

I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose. -- Clarence Darrow

I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time. -Isaac Asimov

He is a self-made man who worships his creator. –John Bright

No philosophy, no religion, has ever brought so glad a message to the world as this good news of Atheism. --Annie Wood Besant

Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter. --William Murray

Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior. -Vox Day

A disbelief in God does not result in a belief in nothing; disbelief in God usually results in a belief in anything.—unknown

I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could look up into the heavens and say there is no God.--Abraham Lincoln

A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers--including even his power to revolt...It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower. --C.S. Lewis

To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge" --Ravi Zacharias

A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. --Francis Bacon

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.--C.S. Lewis

I hope for the day when everyone can speak again of God without embarrassment. --Paul Tillich

If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped. --Evelyn Underhill

Those who believe they believe in God but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God himself. --Madeleine L'Engle

We think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God’s existence think faith is impossible for them. Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith. --Unknown

God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. - J.B. Phillips

A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol. --Deitrich Bonhoeffer

If we were to judge nature by common sense or likelihood, we wouldn't believe the world existed. --Annie Dillard

Shouldn't atheist have an equal obligation to explain pleasure in a world of randomness. Where does pleasure come from? –G.K. Chesterton

Understanding God is not attained by calling into session all arguments for and against Him, in order to debate whether He is a reality or a figment of the mind. God cannot be sensed as a second thought, as an explanation of the origin of the universe. He is either the first and the last, or just another concept. --Abraham Joshua Heschel

Secrets of the incomprehensible wisdom of God, unknown to any besides Himself! Man, sprung up only of a few days, wants to penetrate, and to set bounds to it. Who is it that hath known the mind of the Lord, or who hath been His counselor? --Jeanne Guyon

God will not take shelter behind a jugglery of logic or metaphysics. He is neither a schoolman nor theologian, but our Father in Heaven. –George MacDonald

Without God man has no reference point to define himself. 20th century philosophy manifests the chaos of man seeking to understand himself as a creature with dignity while having no reference point for that dignity. --R. C. Sproul

According to the teaching of our Lord, what is wrong with the world is precisely that it does not believe in God. Yet it is clear that the unbelief which he so bitterly deplored was not an intellectual persuasion of God’s non-existence. Those whom he rebuked for their lack of faith were not men who denied God with the top of their minds, but men who, while apparently incapable of doubting him with the top of their minds, lived as though he did not exist. --John Baillie

The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself, that is the great atheistic fact in human life. –Oswald Chambers

God is dead not because He doesn’t exist, but because we live, play, procreate, govern, and die as though He doesn’t. --Chuck Colson

Self is the opaque veil that hides the Face of God from us. It can be removed only in spiritual experience, never by mere instruction. --A.W. Tozer

The turning point in our lives is when we stop seeking the God we want and start seeking the God who is. --- Patrick Morley

I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, I hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that. --Thomas Nagel

We may seek God by our intellect, but we only can find him with our heart. –Cotvos

I believe in God as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. --C. S. Lewis
 
The Human Concept of God started with early hominids in trying to understand things that were perplexing to him, yet we understand today. ie: Thunder & lightening, Tornadoes, Star and planet movement, meteorites, etc, etc.

Religion came about when one realized he gained power over his clan mates when he claimed he knew the answer to those things perplexing.

Religion in all it's local flavors have existed for as long as man has been on Earth.

As to what created our "Universe" it is my THEORY that the "Big Bang" that created the Stuff of Us, was just a local event. Infinite space give lots of room for many other Big Bangs to exist.

This brings us to TIME, which I've run out of for now......

Steven Di Pietro
Chairperson, Maryland Chapter
of THE BEER PARTY
 
Revelation 12:1-4
Now prove to me where in the Bible it says that the Bible alone is the source of all divine revelation.


How does THAT prove that Satan was an angel? Seriously?

And I've never made the claim that the Bible alone is the source of all divine revelation, but I do make the claim that when people state they hear the voice of God, we medicate them and lock them away.

The Bible uses allegory all the time. Especially in the prophetical books.

Yep, it does. However, The Bible uses the Son of Man to refer to humanity, or Christ. Unless of course, you think the Bible uses the same term to refer to both CHRIST and SATAN. Which would bring up it's own set of questions, wouldn't it?

The Human Concept of God started with early hominids in trying to understand things that were perplexing to him, yet we understand today. ie: Thunder & lightening, Tornadoes, Star and planet movement, meteorites, etc, etc.

Prove it.
 
I recently was called out on another Forum I frequent, saying that Atheism IS in fact a Belief/Religion.

And in turn I responded back, "No, no it isn't." And then they blew up and said not believing in one thing is believing in another.

Actually, lacking to believe something is just that... lacking... not believing. I lack to believe there is a 'god' or heaven or hell.

Just wanted to share that. :cool:
 
Yep, it does. However, The Bible uses the Son of Man to refer to humanity, or Christ. Unless of course, you think the Bible uses the same term to refer to both CHRIST and SATAN. Which would bring up it's own set of questions, wouldn't it?

The Bible actually uses the term son of man over and over again throughout the Bible. The term of son of man simply refers to humanity or refers to the human nature of Christ like you've stated. The term is used to refer to various prophets and people through the Bible as well. The reference in Ezekiel seems to apply to the prophet, not the king of Tyer unless I'm reading a different part of the passage than you are. What I see is something along the lines of "Son of man, take up a lamentation against the king of Tyre....." It seems clear that Son of man refers to the prophet and Ezekiel uses this term for himself over and over again.
 
Stevie D said:
The Human Concept of God started with early hominids in trying to understand things that were perplexing to him, yet we understand today. ie: Thunder & lightening, Tornadoes, Star and planet movement, meteorites, etc, etc.

Prove it.

Ancient Greece for one... Egypt for another... Native Americans...

Alot of Ancient civilizations used actually many different types of gods.
 
And that proves that early hominids invented deities how?

There is carvings, inscriptions and hieroglyphs depicting people in the sky doing those things.

Greek Mythology is one of the best know Mythologies, with Zeus as the 'god of rain and lord of the sky'(when angry is said to hurl lightning bolts), Poseidon 'god of the sea', Hades 'god of the under world' and another of which is Aris ' god or war'.
 
Proof..... Let me get my time machine and schedule a trip back. But, looking at ourselves, and knowing structures in the early hominid brains are similar to ours, leads one to believe their thought patterns are similar to ours. Therefore, imagine yourself seeing lightening and hearing the clap of thunder for the first time.

Yet, I'll concede.... my theory has no more evidence then ANY body else's.
 
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