God?

[Mac_Leod]

I never knew that about ID either. My beliefs about evolution and creation are very similar to byteware's. I always assumed that's what "Intelligent Design" was referring to.

 

[EarlyMon]

I never knew that about ID either. My beliefs about evolution and creation are very similar to byteware's. I always assumed that's what "Intelligent Design" was referring to.

So far as I can tell, the Discovery Institute wants everyone on board with that understanding so that they force a political agenda.

I recall a whole lot of us sharing these beliefs without ever needing the ID people giving us a new buzz-phrase to divide us.

I was taught to have the courage to state my beliefs plainly.

From - Intelligent designer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William Dembski states in his book Design Inference that the nature of the intelligent designer cannot be inferred from intelligent design[8] and suggests that the designer, if one is even necessary for design inference, may or may not be "the God of Scripture."[9] In December 2007 Dembski told Focus on the Family, "I believe God created the world for a purpose. The Designer of intelligent design is, ultimately, the Christian God."[10] Some leading intelligent design proponents have stated identifying or characterizing the designer is beyond the scope of intelligent design as a line of inquiry. Proponents had hoped that, by avoiding invoking creation by a specific supernatural entity, (such as that employed by creation science), intelligent design would be considered scientific and not violate the establishment clause of the US constitution. Proponents feared that were intelligent design identified as a restatement of previous forms of creationism, it would be precluded from being taught in public schools after the 1987 Supreme Court of the United States decision in Edwards vs Aguillard.

So - depending upon the intended audience, the intelligent designer either may or may not be the God of Scripture - or - is definitely the God of Scripture.

Those two things cannot be true at the same time.

I do not believe in holy deception, where one lies for one's faith to achieve a political objective. I think there's even a teaching about not lying.

I don't concern myself with God's role in creation - I respect your beliefs. You might be right. But for me - I cannot bring myself to attempt to think of it one way or the other because my mind scrutinizes everything. In the end, I would end up scrutinizing God - and I'm not having any of that. One way or another, all mysteries will be revealed to me upon my death - and I'm happy to wait patiently. In the meantime, I'm happy to learn about the HOW.

That's me.

Now - you do as you all think best, and frankly, I hope it's not to join the ranks of deceivers.

PS - We can all joke about Wrongepedia - but that passage has the references, you can see the truth of those statements for yourselves.

 

[byteware]

In the end, I would end up scrutinizing God

This is where I am at right now.

Honestly, an all powerful God has the power to save every soul regardless of that soul's religious beliefs. An All powerful God has the ability to allow every soul into heaven regardless of the sin in that soul. An All powerful God damns people because he chooses to, and for no other reason than that.

 

[Sim2k]

This basically covers what I think about the subject: Flying Spaghetti Monster

But you've probably seen it before.

 

[EarlyMon]

My body exists because matter and energy on this planet were transformed into me. When I die, my body will transform back into other forms of matter and energy.

When I wondered if the same might be true of the soul, I imagined God as a shepherd boy, standing knee deep in the ocean, scooping up cups of water and holding them, and from time to time, emptying them back into the ocean.

In that moment, I decided that my job was to sense the flow of that ocean that I was separated from and try to mimic it within myself. I guess I want to fit back into that flow when the time comes for the shepherd to empty my cup.

Once I thought of that, I stopped concerning myself with God saving souls - so far as my revelation taught me, God has his hands full, I can do my part, be thankful for my identity in my own little cup for the time it happens and be thankful when time comes to empty it. In the end, the shepherd may understand the ocean, but the ocean does not understand the shepherd. So, I only concern myself with the ocean.

But - that's just me.

Apologies if this offends anyone's beliefs.

 

[EarlyMon]

This basically covers what I think about the subject: Flying Spaghetti Monster

But you've probably seen it before.

RAmen!

 

[DaSchmarotzer]

I feel like writing my opinion on religion, so I will. You can quote me and try to destroy my argumentation all you want; I don't mind at all, although you should know that even if you seem to be right I probably will not change my mind since I have never done so when it comes to religion. At least I'm honest about it.

I'm an atheist.

I believe that questions like "what is the meaning of life" are quite pointless. This will be about the start of life, not about the start of matter or the universe, as I don't have enough knowledge to discuss these really seriously.

So, according to the laws of Physics (Chemistry comes down to Physics, everything does), laws might change from places to places, universes to universes or dimensions to dimensions, there are many elements that can react together and create compounds, you know that already and I won't get into the whole quarks thing (nor will I talk about Higgs boson, rest assured ). Blah-blah proteins blah-blah. The conditions for certain chemical compounds to form were met and unicellular beings started to appear. Since life is the mix of many chemical reactions (nothing more), when the cells "died" (when some chemical reactions came to a stop), well that would be the end of it. However, lifeforms started to reproduce themselves, at first using mitosis. They did not decide to do so, it just happened (unicellular beings do not "think"). This is one important characteristic of life: it will continue. To do so, it will become more complex with time, with different chemical mechanisms that help the life form to do so, such as DNA transcription.

With that in mind, when you look at a rock, do you think about its purpose on Earth which, by the way, is composed of many rocks just like the one you were supposedly looking at? No, because it's simply matter. It has no "goal", it's just there. Life is simply the fruit of matter organization. If I talk about "you": your personality, your opinions, your memories, etc, I'm talking about your brain. The rest of your body is simply there to ensure proper nutrition to your brain: food or oxygen. You see, you talk, you move and you hear so you can protect your own brain and nourish it. But then, why do we have a brain for? To control the other parts of your body. See the loop? (That was a rhetorical question, it's pretty much obvious ). All I'm saying is that life has no real purpose, but it's simply like that. People like sexual intercourse because if they didn't, life wouldn't exist and since it does, it had to be that way.

So what happens when you die? Nothing. Just like when you weren't born, the chemical reactions in your non-existent brain aren't happening (duh ). I say "chemical" all the time but you get the idea; electricity, magnetism, gravity, etc are also involved. There's nothing else to it. A corpse is just like a dead leaf.

What's happiness? Dopamine in your brain.

If you agree with everything I've said up to now, you should also think that nothing matters. Because of that, life is in some way what you want it to be.

What I don't understand in the theory of religion is why people care about their god. Even if god created the universe or anything, if you agree with what I posted above, you should also agree that god has no influence on your life at all. Then why do you devote your time to him? I am honestly asking the question. I appreciate religion, because they usually are a set of rules on how to live peacefully in society, which I appreciate. However, just because I am an atheist (I don't like that word by the way, but that would be too long and maybe offensive if poorly worded) doesn't mean I can't use reason and logic to agree to the rules set in place for a peaceful society. I previously said that nothing really mattered, but still, that's the way most people seem to be happy, and a state of happiness is what most people are looking for.

By the way, I just want to add that two things define you. First of all, your DNA. The other thing is your environment. Since you have no control over your environment (and if you do change it, it's because of your DNA or your previous reactions to your environment). What I'm saying is everything you do is ruled by your DNA. Does that mean that destiny exists? Not at all. In fact, you don't really decide of anything, but since there are probabilities when it comes to electrons according to today's knowledge (mine at least), it's impossible to predict the future so there is no such thing as destiny. You could calculate the odds of your body disappearing and appearing on Mars. That would be really low.

This reminds me of the time when I was asked to shut up during a conference on environment: one of the presenter said that a can of Aluminum wouldn't degrade completely for thousands of year and that it was awful. I said that Aluminum was the most abundant metal of the Earth's crust and that I didn't see his point. Is the can awful because it's shaped like a can instead of like a rock? Trust me, I know there's much more to it but they couldn't even respond to me. The "awful" thing isn't the can on the ground: it's the dangerous products released in the environment during its production that could be avoided if the can were to be recycled. However, they didn't seem to realize that and it was simply sad.

Please note that English isn't my daily language so my vocabulary probably isn't that great, but alas this is not a French forum. My post would have been much better.

To me, god is thermodynamics. He's gravity. He's Physics. In that post, I just wrote what went through my mind, remember that:

1. It doesn't matter and 2. I'm not responsible for my acts.

Please destroy my "arguments" if you can. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Whatever your beliefs are or your ethnicity or the color of your underwear, have a good day.


PS: To tl;dr, I respond, tl;dmsa (too long; didn't make sense anyway).

 

[Xyro]

Please destroy my "arguments" if you can.

I'd far rather buy you a beer You've pretty much summed up my thoughts on the subject.

 

[EarlyMon]

By the way, I just want to add that two things define you. First of all, your DNA. The other thing is your environment. Since you have no control over your environment (and if you do change it, it's because of your DNA or your previous reactions to your environment). What I'm saying is everything you do is ruled by your DNA.

Yeah. No. Close, but no.

That disagrees with what's known about brain chemistry, suggest Neural Darwinism: The Theory of Neuronal Group Selection by Gerald Edelman for foundation in first principles.

Note that the entrenched insistence against Edelman's teaching here by expecting finite thought in finite brain structure is invariably based on Edelman's earlier work in the field, now deprecated (a sometimes not-apparent situation when arguments in the field are presented).

Your position is also the slope to non-attribution of the basics of inventing, suggest Ancient Engineers by L. Sprague de Camp for dissertation of observables tangentially suggesting truth to above by potential of some correlation.

While in the neighborhood and off-topic (or maybe not so much), but just because you'll enjoy the essay, suggest Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes because evidence exists that much of what is contaminating modern thought on how the mind works within societal frameworks is due to missing the evolution of the corpus callosum, and its importance.

Probably you've read these things or superior - but if so, I'm rather surprised at that statement, as everything else you said seemed perfectly cromulent.

And do I get a beer?

Why, yes. Yes, I do - and you boys are all welcome to join in.

 

[Steven58]

You can quote me and try to destroy my argumentation all you want; I don't mind at all, although you should know that even if you seem to be right I probably will not change my mind since I have never done so when it comes to religion. At least I'm honest about it.

I'm an atheist.

Bro,

I want preface what I'm going to say by stating that I truly respect your opinion and your right to have it. I even will fight for that right. I believe in freedom of will and choice.

As you know and my AF bio shows, I am an ordained Christian minister. What it doesn't show is that I was born and I am still a Jew. Strange mixture, I know. I want to briefly state what brought me to this place as it has bearing on your points.

Someone I once met used to say that "a man with a genuine experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument."

Long story short, when I was 19 years old I had a visitation by the Spirit of God. Yes, as weird it sounds, He chose to make himself known to me. I turned from a very culturally Jewish man, who was brought up and Bar-Mitzvah'd and who was thoroughly Jesus Christ-rejecting, to a changed Christ-follower. The change was immediate and miraculous. My wife and her family were stunned. My family was very angry and disowned me. (They don't anymore.) It was very tough on me, as a young kid, but God more than made up the difference.

I told my dad, who was screaming in my face, "I had an appearance by God, what would you have me do? Say 'no' to Him?" My dad and speak, now, and it's fine, I was 19. I'm 52 now. Lots of water under the bridge.

Of course, there's a lot more to all of this, but I don't want to grandstand and get off topic, making this thread about me.

I'll go away, now.

 

[Frisco]

...I'll go away, now.

Don't ever do that, amigo.

 

[Steven58]

Don't ever do that, amigo.

Steven (who is a big goof off OT'er) is really struggling not to go OT... must not ... respond .. o...t.

 

[Frisco]

Steven (who is a big goof off OT'er) is really struggling not to go OT... must not ... respond .. o...t.

^^ Self-negating post.

Back on-topic...

I have proof that God's a woman: only men grow hair in their nose and ears as they get old.

 

[EarlyMon]

You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but the subject of God is on-topically everywhere she is.


lma0

 

[Mac_Leod]

An All powerful God damns people because he chooses to, and for no other reason than that.

God gave us free will, the ability to choose different things, including believing or not believing in Him and following or not following Him. He loves us enough to respect our choices, even while reaching out to us hoping that we change our minds. Imagine, if you will, that you have a grown child who makes some bad decisions and eventually decides to cut you out of their life. You still love them and respect them and keep trying to reach out to them.

 

[byteware]

God gave us free will, the ability to choose different things, including believing or not believing in Him and following or not following Him. He loves us enough to respect our choices, even while reaching out to us hoping that we change our minds. Imagine, if you will, that you have a grown child who makes some bad decisions and eventually decides to cut you out of their life. You still love them and respect them and keep trying to reach out to them.

That's all well and good, but I think you miss my point.

If a person cuts God out of his life, there is nothing stopping God from bringing that person into heaven. Not one darned thing.

 

[Mac_Leod]

By the way, I just want to add that two things define you. First of all, your DNA. The other thing is your environment. Since you have no control over your environment (and if you do change it, it's because of your DNA or your previous reactions to your environment). What I'm saying is everything you do is ruled by your DNA. Does that mean that destiny exists? Not at all. In fact, you don't really decide of anything, but since there are probabilities when it comes to electrons according to today's knowledge (mine at least), it's impossible to predict the future so there is no such thing as destiny. You could calculate the odds of your body disappearing and appearing on Mars. That would be really low.

First you say that two things define you, your DNA and your environment. But then you go on to say that everything you do is ruled by your DNA, even changes you make to your environment. So you're basically saying that only one thing defines you, your DNA.

How does that apply to me? I was adopted when I was two months old. I never knew my birth parents, I still don't and I'm 29. What shapes me? The DNA I inherited from my birth parents, or the upbringing I got from my real (adopted) parents?

On a completely different topic, it always cracks me up when people say God made man is His own image meaning two arms, two legs, and a head. The Bible means spiritually in His image. We have a soul that is made in the image and likeness of God, who is a spiritual being.

 

[Frisco]

God gave us free will, the ability to choose different things, including believing or not believing in Him and following or not following Him.

+1.

Some atheists seem to view a perfect God as one who only creates robot-like beings which have to worship him, as if God is a king or dictator.

 

[Mac_Leod]

That's all well and good, but I think you miss my point.

If a person cuts God out of his life, there is nothing stopping God from bringing that person into heaven. Not one darned thing.

Except the person's wishes. That person has, by virtue of free will, chosen to have nothing to do with God. God loves him enough to respect that choice.

 

[jpovis]

If this were true, you'd think there would be some archaeological proof of it.

Pyramids, Sphynx, Easter Island, etc.

 

[jamor]

God gave us free will, the ability to choose different things, including believing or not believing in Him and following or not following Him. He loves us enough to respect our choices, even while reaching out to us hoping that we change our minds. Imagine, if you will, that you have a grown child who makes some bad decisions and eventually decides to cut you out of their life. You still love them and respect them and keep trying to reach out to them.

This doesn't make any sense to me.. at all. I couldn't disagree more.

Instead of trying to preach to us, which is extremely insulting, you may want to argue if there is a God or not.

If there is a "God", "He" is not a person and he doesn't hope or help or wish or accept or give, or any of the above. God is not an imaginary friend.

 

[EarlyMon]

Let's remember in text, we lose face and tone of voice. Where you heard preaching, others might just hear statement of belief, no different than others here have done (whether believing or atheist).

Let's all give each other the benefit of the doubt - life is short and this is just the internet.

 

[byteware]

Except the person's wishes. That person has, by virtue of free will, chosen to have nothing to do with God. God loves him enough to respect that choice.

So, you agree that God isn't required to send said person to hell, but chooses to?

 

[Mac_Leod]

So, you agree that God isn't required to send said person to hell, but chooses to?

I don't believe that God sends anyone to Hell. I believe that people freely choose to go there, whether out of ignorance or what have you.

 

[Mac_Leod]

This doesn't make any sense to me.. at all. I couldn't disagree more.

Instead of trying to preach to us, which is extremely insulting, you may want to argue if there is a God or not.

If there is a "God", "He" is not a person and he doesn't hope or help or wish or accept or give, or any of the above. God is not an imaginary friend.

I find it insulting that you would take a simple, heartfelt statement of belief and say that I was trying to "preach" to you.

Edit: I'm sorry if that sounded confrontational. I was simply trying to explain how and why I believe what I do.