God?

[Vihzel]

I think we live in a matrix. The movie says so! I have faith.

 

[Outlaw71]

Well then, may the force be with you.


Always.

 

[Outlaw71]

I don't usually discuss my beliefs because, well they aren't very well thought out.

I think I must fall into that catagory that is probably a lot larger than it's given credit for. I could never say I fully believe in God, but I could also never say I absolutely don't believe in God.

There are strong arguments both ways. Sometimes I think to myself, "how on earth could there be a being that's been around forever, is all knowing, all seeing, all that stuff. It just seems crazy, like believing Santa actually exists or something". And I do believe that we absolutely could have arrived without a creator.

I believe that wherever there are planets placed perfectly away from their star to support life, life will inevitably grow. And when life starts to manifest, there is one rule of the jungle that must always be followed... survival of the fittest! But the definition of fittest isn't universal. There are species that use brawn to remain atop the food chain. And there are species that use brain to stick around. The ocean is a perfect example. The shark is the fiercest animal you could ever imagine, it's easy to see how they survived through millions of years. But dolphine have managed to do very well for themselves by using their brain. Give the dolphine another couple million years and who knows how intelligent they would become.

So long as life is given an uninterupted length of time to evolve without a huge asteroid slamming into the planet and destroying all life, I think a creature such as the human being is inevitable to show up. A life form that has evolved its brain over hundreds of thousands of years to advance itself above the other life forms... seems inescapable really. So in my opinion, it doesn't take an all knowing diety to produce an intelligent life form such as ourselves.

That's the logical side of my brain speaking.

The other side of my brain looks at the history of man, and sees that no matter where you go on this planet, every single culture on this earth believes in a higher power. No matter how far away from the rest of civilization an ethnic group evolved itself, it came up with something to pray to. It's universal. It's happened time after time after time, in every corner of the globe, in every time period known to man, we have worshipped Gods. We're talking about billions upon billions of people over the last couple thousand years that all believed there was a God. When I look at that track record I wonder... how could soooo many people have been dead wrong?

And it's not just the belief, it's the experiences people have gone through. It's the actual change I've seen in people who once were lost, and then were found go through. It's truly humbling to see someone who once had no purpose in life except doing drugs, stealing from people, just being a total loser... then suddenly, for what ever reason, they find Jesus and every single thing about them changes. Right down to their appearance. They kick drugs, turn their lives around, they have this energy that is unreal, and they talk about feeling God in their heart and all the rest of it.

Now don't get me wrong, this hasn't happened to me or anything. I'm not preaching to anyone here at all. But I've seen this happen, and the transformation is unbelievable. Sure you can pick it all apart and define all the elements with one expanation or the other, but when this phenomenon has occured to so many millions of people over the history of civilization.... well for me it's hard to write off as chance. As illogical as God, Jesus, a higher power and all the rest of that stuff is, there is something about the sheer number of people who do believe, and have said, "once you feel it, you'll know it's real" that makes it so that I just can not dismiss all of it 100%

So those two parts of my brain are in a constant battle with one another. But I tell you this much, if an alien craft ever does land, and two aliens come out to greet me and one of them has a cross around their neck... I'll believe forsure then!!!

 

[bluenova]

Thanks for putting it out there Outlaw. I also don't like to talk about my religious views too much because, well, they are my views. But here we go...

I have a lot of Christian friends and it seems to me that my views and the views of the majority of Christians I've met are quite different from the view of God that many sceptics have.

The way we see it and the way the Bible see's it, there are 3 parts to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit but these 3 parts are all one and the same. God was personified in the form of Jesus Christ but the sceptics are always personifying God as a large man with a long white beard who sits in the clouds. Now I'm a very rational person but that doesn't sound very rational to me. In the bible we are told God is Love. As we know love is a feeling we have that brings us together and connects us all, I'm talking about the love one has for a family member, for a pet or even for a favourite jumper, it's a connection. We are also told that through the Holy Spirit God is in everything, God is everywhere. So I don't see God as something separate or detached, I see God as like The Force in Star Wars, a binding, metaphysical and ubiquitous power.

I also believe in Heaven and Hell but I don't see them as separate realms as the sceptics do. I believe we make our Heaven or Hell by the way we live our lives, by the memories we create of the things we have done and when we die our soul/conciousness becomes apart of the whole just as our physical body does. I believe as our physical body breaks down and becomes apart of the earth, our soul also becomes a part of that force I mentioned, at one with God and we take with us as experiences or mind-state, to become an eternal heaven or hell.

1. There must be at least 100 different religions out there, and each one claims that the other 99 are wrong. Why is that? (I gave up after i went thru about 5)

I don't think that's true, I know there are certain religions that have very strong views that only theirs path is the right path but I would think the majority would disagree with that. It all boils down to having values and in most religions those values are pretty similar.

2. Why does god need a prophet? If s/he was truly omnipotent, a prophet would not be needed. S/he could talk to / reveal him/herself to all of us at any time. No "mystery of faith" needed.

I think I answered this above, why must you think of God as s/he or as an individual? Jesus was the individual. The mystery of faith is that every time we share in the communion we are doing as Christians have done for centuries and are therefore sharing in Christ with all Christians regardless of time and space. That's the mystery.

4. And if you really want to test your faith, why does god hate amputees?

Again the sceptics can't shift from the idea of God being a large man with a long white beard that for what ever reason won't down out of the sky and fix things. They don't seem to be able to be more open minded about what God is.

I've been through some pretty shitty times in my life and during those times I've asked myself why am I having to go through this. I now know if I hadn't have gone through those times, I would have never have met my wife and had my wonderful daughter plus a whole load of other great things that have happened that never would have. Everything has an opposite, without sadness there would be no happiness, you would just be?

Probably the thing that annoys me the most is when people say "God works in mysterious ways." or "It's God's will." Its like saying that it was fate for that to occur... which also implies that the concept of free will is all an illusion.

That annoys me too. It again suggests that God is an individual sitting at a console pushing buttons when to me it is so much more than that, it is everything.

People have speculated that Religious folk are generally very narrow minded but from the Christians I've met (and I've met a lot) this is far from the truth. Sure there are Christians that take the stories in the bible as face fact and don't understand that they are teaching material and it's the message behind the stories that's important not the stories themselves. And this is the view the sceptics like to go with too. But the Christians I've met are thirsty for knowledge, most of them very logical and eager to discover and learn. Does that stop them from being spiritual and having faith, most certainly not. Someone said earlier that Christians would be unlikely to believe in extra terrestrial life or [aliens] as it was put. I would have to disagree, I'd say a Christians openness to believe without definitive proof makes them much more likely to believe.

I'll leave you with a theory I was once told which I quite like regarding our lives being pre-determined. Unfortunately I don't have the exact words and probably can't say it nearly as well and the person who told me but I'll give it a go...

All Christians believe we are on a journey and at the end of the journey is a destination or goal. There are many paths to the destination and we don't always take the best route. Luckily we have our trusty Sat-Nav or God who can guide us and tell us when we are going the wrong way. We don't have to listen though, we can continue to go the wrong way or turn it off completely but if we keep it on it will keep giving directions through each wrong turn leading us back to the right path.

 

[jwp1223]

Bluenova, best post ever read.

 

[A.Nonymous]

In my earlier post we talked about facts. So now here are some questions to consider in our quest to find the true TRUTH (whatever that is):

1. There must be at least 100 different religions out there, and each one claims that the other 99 are wrong. Why is that? (I gave up after i went thru about 5)

Try hundreds of thousands of different religions. There are hundreds of different countries as well. Each of them claim the others are wrong about something. We in America mock Canadians for all kinds of things and openly discriminate against Mexicans and think nothing of it. And Canadians and Mexicans do the same to us.

2. Why does god need a prophet? If s/he was truly omnipotent, a prophet would not be needed. S/he could talk to / reveal him/herself to all of us at any time. No "mystery of faith" needed.

Why does the President need a spokesman? Through the miracle of radio/television/the Internet he can easily speak to all of us at any time. Instead, he has spokespeople who tell us what his views/opinions are. Are these spokespeople revealing his thoughts exactly? We hope so, but Mr. Obama has yet to return any of my calls so I can't be sure.

3. Why is the New Testament written by people that lived at least 80 years after Christ's death? If Jesus/God was so smart, he would have had his own apostles documenting his life when they were alive. Just sayin'

Not sure where you're going here. Now you've gone from questioning religion to questioning Christianity and I see no other questions directed at any other religions. Bear in mind that the majority of Jesus' apostles were (according to the Bible anyway), fishermen and other peasant types. They were very likely illiterate. And we do know (or at least strong posit) that the writers of the Gospels drew from various written accounts of Jesus' life.

4. And if you really want to test your faith, why does god hate amputees?

For the same reason he hates me I suppose. He could give a million bucks and it would really improve my quality of life, but he doesn't. He has also has not decided to make me irresistible to the ladies. Perhaps he is answering the ladies prayers in that regard and not mine.

5. Oh, and one more for extra credit: why do the begats go back to Joseph?

No idea what you're talking about here.

 

[bigbadwulff]

Outlaw: You now do not exist to me................. .jk. Even though I believe I can also separate myself from that and use your thought process on this subject. Even though I'm a believer I can allow myself to THINK another direction.
I don't think that necessarily is a contradiction but it is being truly open-minded.

 

[EarlyMon]

M theory really says that membranes collided (the big bang), created vibrations that we (theoretically) perceive as strings, and the vibrations of those strings are what we perceive as matter. We know nothing about the parallel universes whose membranes (boundaries) collided - we don't know if our laws applied there.

Matter can be created - and is. In the quantum foam, virtual particle pairs are constantly being created and then mutually annihilating each other. At the event horizon of a black hole, the virtual particles become real, with one being ejected into our universe's space and the other disappearing. This is the mechanism for black hole dissipation, that satisfies a bit of thermodynamics and in effect, means that black holes are kinda really white holes.

Matter is destroyed in stars and nuclear weapons - matter is converted into energy and therefore destroyed by conversion.

So, rather than saying that there's a conservation of matter (neither created nor destroyed), what we really seem to think we have is conservation of the total of matter, energy and momentum all together.

If you dig deeper, I think you'll find that we don't even know what space is.

We're still trying to learn the right questions, so we're probably far off from knowing real answers.

So, you could be right about matter creating our universe, but don't sign up for Nobel prizes just yet. And if I'm wrong and you win, you can use some of this in your acceptance speech for the low, low price of $30.

 

[bigbadwulff]

No idea what you're talking about here.

Begats are: "Mary begat Jesus"(had, gave birth to, is the parent of, you get the idea). I guess he's saying the first in line(of this particular lineage of people) is Joseph.

 

[Outlaw71]

Well Bluenova I'm glad my post beckoned to you to share your views. Because your post is certainly thought provolking, to put it mildly.

So George Lucas was on to something after all eh? I remember hearing something about people trying to start a religeon based on the 'force' from the Star Wars films. I just write it off as a bunch of nut cases! But the way you so eloquently put it, I can almost see myself setting up a 'Yoda' statue up and praying to him.


Edit: ok after reading that back I feel like I sounded cynical, that wasn't my intention. What I meant was the 'force that binds us' theory you put forth actually really makes sense. It makes me think that through all these centuries man has always had the insigjt to know SOMETHING is there, but just not knowing what it was. So every culture tries to put a name to it.... God, Budda, Alah, Christ, Zeus, etc... all names discribing the same force they all ciuld feel.

Brilliant!

 

[byteware]

In my earlier post we talked about facts. So now here are some questions to consider in our quest to find the true TRUTH (whatever that is):

1. There must be at least 100 different religions out there, and each one claims that the other 99 are wrong. Why is that? (I gave up after i went thru about 5)

2. Why does god need a prophet? If s/he was truly omnipotent, a prophet would not be needed. S/he could talk to / reveal him/herself to all of us at any time. No "mystery of faith" needed.

3. Why is the New Testament written by people that lived at least 80 years after Christ's death? If Jesus/God was so smart, he would have had his own apostles documenting his life when they were alive. Just sayin'

4. And if you really want to test your faith, why does god hate amputees?

5. Oh, and one more for extra credit: why do the begats go back to Joseph?

This isn't a fun way to question a particular religion.

Satan is not a fallen Angel. God created Satan directly to tempt man. In fact, God engineered the fall of man (being all powerful and all knowing, things played out exactly as he intended).

Christianity dictates that God sends people to hell simply for being the way he intended for them to be.

What's more, God has the power to allow anyone into heaven, sin and all.

What's more, God has the power to cleanse every human of their sinful nature, just because he wants to... he doesn't want to.

What's more, God has the power to remove all sin from every soul that has ever existed and will ever exist.

God wants people in Hell.

That doesn't seem loving or just... but it is something that I struggle with.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Begats are: "Mary begat Jesus"(had, gave birth to, is the parent of, you get the idea). I guess he's saying the first in line(of this particular lineage of people) is Joseph.

Again, I'm not sure what he's talking about. In Matthew the geneology goes all the way back to Abraham. In Luke, it goes to Joseph, but clearly states that Jesus was "thought to be" Joseph's son. I'm not sure what the point is.

M theory really says that membranes collided (the big bang), created vibrations that we (theoretically) perceive as strings, and the vibrations of those strings are what we perceive as matter. We know nothing about the parallel universes whose membranes (boundaries) collided - we don't know if our laws applied there.

Matter can be created - and is. In the quantum foam, virtual particle pairs are constantly being created and then mutually annihilating each other. At the event horizon of a black hole, the virtual particles become real, with one being ejected into our universe's space and the other disappearing. This is the mechanism for black hole dissipation, that satisfies a bit of thermodynamics and in effect, means that black holes are kinda really white holes.

Matter is destroyed in stars and nuclear weapons - matter is converted into energy and therefore destroyed by conversion.

So, rather than saying that there's a conservation of matter (neither created nor destroyed), what we really seem to think we have is conservation of the total of matter, energy and momentum all together.

If you dig deeper, I think you'll find that we don't even know what space is.

We're still trying to learn the right questions, so we're probably far off from knowing real answers.

So, you could be right about matter creating our universe, but don't sign up for Nobel prizes just yet. And if I'm wrong and you win, you can use some of this in your acceptance speech for the low, low price of $30.

I am a science nerd. I have read all kinds of stuff about quantum foam, p-branes, etc..... I love it. I am so turned on by this post I can't stand it.

 

[EarlyMon]

So George Lucas was on to something after all eh? I remember hearing something about people trying to start a religeon based on the 'force' from the Star Wars films. I just write it off as a bunch of nut cases! But the way you so eloquently put it, I can almost see myself setting up a 'Yoda' statue up and praying to him.

Actually, until the metaclorian nonsense, the original Star Wars movie's statement of the force is actually one expression of Chinese Taoism (in it's philosophical, not religious, form). And just as some yoga forms tie to various Hindu or Buddhist teachings, so does moving yoga, aka Tai Chi Chaun, tie to those Taoist philosophies.

Lucas borrowed all from that, and didn't invent it whole cloth.

Where Tao literally translates into Way, Lucas simply renamed that The Force.

So - all Lucas was on to were ancient belief systems that many people are not familiar with.

 

[chrisinsocalif]

As has already been stated, every culture ever found believes in a God of some sort. Do you really think that if we started a new one, they wouldn't believe in a God as well?

Humans are pattern seeking primates who seek connections. Belief is the natural state in which people default to. So if that new society didn't have the science and education they do today, they will naturally default to some belief since its hard wired in our brains for survival. It doesn't necessarily make that state of mind valid or factual.

Michael Shermer: Why people believe strange things

Also claiming God is metaphysical and outside our realm of understanding does not free him from criticism. The same argument can be made for any metaphysical being or mythical creature and doesn't add to the validity of God.

Science attempts to explain the how, and religion attempts to explain the why.

Science and Religion don't necessarily conflict.

There is a conflict of information.
Science is systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Religion is a branch of pseudo science with various methods, theories, or systems having no scientific basis which can be dangerous. Refer to above, Why people believe strange things and also look up, The pattern behind self-deception.

 

[zildj]

Anyone mentioned Free Will? Thats also because He loves us. Yes, He is all mighty and powerful and He can do everything, but He has given us free will to do whatever we want. Everytime you do something stoopid (idk if that actual word is blocked.lol), you still wake up in the morning and be alive right? How many people have you heard sleeping perfectly healthy and not waking up? That might be because they challenged God in a different way that He has to prove He is there. And never challenge God.

I also learned as I grew in my faith that all those promises and "good things" will all happen at the end of time. Download a Bible APP and read the book of Revelation. (if you dont have a Bible. lol) It tells you there that all the good things, all his promises will come soon. Not now, Not Yesterday, Not tomorrow, but at the end of time where the people who accepted His son will be with Him.

He could've done all of this at the beginning and erase everything and give a fresh start, but He loves us so much that He wants to give His creation a chance to live on Earth and be free.

 

[chrisinsocalif]

Anyone mentioned Free Will? Thats also because He loves us.........

I think Dawkins says it best,
""The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't really consider living under a celestial dictatorship as a good thing and if you actually read the bible, he doesn't seem to be so loving as people are led to believe.

 

[Vihzel]

Anyone mentioned Free Will? Thats also because He loves us. Yes, He is all mighty and powerful and He can do everything, but He has given us free will to do whatever we want. Everytime you do something stoopid (idk if that actual word is blocked.lol), you still wake up in the morning and be alive right? How many people have you heard sleeping perfectly healthy and not waking up? That might be because they challenged God in a different way that He has to prove He is there. And never challenge God.

That's not a very convincing argument. What do you mean by perfectly healthy people not waking up? Like cardiac arrest? or is that sentence figurative? How do you know if he had a play in someone's death? If someone drove into a tree and died instantly, then would that be that person's own fault for doing it? or did he take away his life? If someone drove into a tree and died 2 weeks later in the hospital, would that still be the result of free will and doing something stupid?

And the sentence in bold... a good example of how religion rules with fear.

 

[zildj]

I think Dawkins says it best,
""The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

I don't really consider living under a celestial dictatorship as a good thing and if you actually read the bible, he doesn't seem to be so loving as people are led to believe.

Parts of the Old Testament does mention how God had certain rules that is outside of what Humans can bare. But you dont look on the first side of the book and conclude the story, did you continue reading the New Testament and see what God has done? Everyone can be saved because He sacrificed His son.

 

[zildj]

That's not a very convincing argument. What do you mean by perfectly healthy people not waking up? Like cardiac arrest? or is that sentence figurative?

And the sentence in bold... a good example of how religion rules with fear.

I dont know what religion you are talking about because the one i know rules with love. Its not a fear of being judged or questioned in Heaven because He has forgiven us. Love Keeps No Record of Wrongs (1 Corinthians 13:5)

 

[Vihzel]

I dont know what religion you are talking about because the one i know rules with love. Its not a fear of being judged or questioned in Heaven because He has forgiven us. Love Keeps No Record of Wrongs (1 Corinthians 13:5)

You said to "never challenge God". What would happen if I do? Why can't I challenge him? It's in human nature to challenge others and not blindly follow whatever a book or group of people say. If there are issues that I have with someone, even God, am I not allowed to challenge him? It sounds like a bit of a dictatorship. If I don't challenge him... then I will be in good terms with him but If I do... there will be dire consequences?

 

[byteware]

I dont know what religion you are talking about because the one i know rules with love. Its not a fear of being judged or questioned in Heaven because He has forgiven us. Love Keeps No Record of Wrongs (1 Corinthians 13:5)

And yet God keeps a record of our wrongs... doesn't he.

 

[byteware]

Also claiming God is metaphysical and outside our realm of understanding does not free him from criticism. The same argument can be made for any metaphysical being or mythical creature and doesn't add to the validity of God.

Never claimed it did... and if you look further down the thread you will see that I myself have criticized him.

There is a conflict of information.
Science is systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Religion is a branch of pseudo science with various methods, theories, or systems having no scientific basis which can be dangerous.

This is an obvious misconception. Religion makes no claim on science.

Now, that doesn't mean that their aren't religious people who create pseudo science in order justify their beliefs (intelligent design).

 

[EarlyMon]

Parts of the Old Testament does mention how God had certain rules that is outside of what Humans can bare. But you dont look on the first side of the book and conclude the story, did you continue reading the New Testament and see what God has done? Everyone can be saved because He sacrificed His son.

Your Christian holy book, as I recall and if I understand correctly, claims there is only one true god, and you know him through that book.

What about the Jews who believe in only half of that holy book (to generalize the concept) and actually have their own holy book?

What about Muslims whose religion is founded in the same tribal roots but who use yet a different holy book?


And what about those of us who simply are not part of the Near Mideast Theisms and find no applicability of your holy book or that of the Jews or the Muslims?

What about the highly populous subcontinent and far Asian plains whose holy books predate your holy book yet are still read and followed today?



What about those of us who don't believe we need saving in the first place because we do not need saving?

 

[Vihzel]

Now, that doesn't mean that their aren't religious people who create pseudo science in order justify their beliefs (intelligent design).

Intelligent Design is a bunch of bull. Thank god it failed in court. Made purely to try to teach creationism in public schools. Again, there's a reason why the Theory of Evolution has NEVER been disproven. I hope it's not too hard to know why. There are an "infinite" amount of evidence all over the world for evolution, yet... where's the evidence against it?

Wasn't there a person or institution that offered $1 million dollars to whomever can disprove evolution? I thought I read something about it a few years ago but not sure if it was just a joke.

It's funny how we envision Adam and Eve to be two perfect white homo-sapiens. According to the fossil record of the first humans, they would've looked hideous to us... and definitely not of European descent.

 

[zildj]

You said to "never challenge God". What would happen if I do? Why can't I challenge him? It's in human nature to challenge others and not blindly follow whatever a book or group of people say. If there are issues that I have with someone, even God, am I not allowed to challenge him? It sounds like a bit of a dictatorship. If I don't challenge him... then I will be in good terms with him but If I do... there will be dire consequences?

Exactly. What I said. Because thats what I believed in. Its all up to you to believe it or follow it. IMO, its not about challenging God but challenging ourselves to believe and accept what He have for us. I am not a pastor or anything, and I cant tell you what you can or cannot do, its your life after all

And yet God keeps a record of our wrongs... doesn't he.

?

Your Christian holy book, as I recall and if I understand correctly, claims there is only one true god, and you know him through that book.

What about the Jews who believe in only half of that holy book (to generalize the concept) and actually have their own holy book?

What about Muslims whose religion is founded in the same tribal roots but who use yet a different holy book?


And what about those of us who simply are not part of the Near Mideast Theisms and find no applicability of your holy book or that of the Jews or the Muslims?

What about the highly populous subcontinent and far Asian plains whose holy books predate your holy book yet are still read and followed today?



What about those of us who don't believe we need saving in the first place because we do not need saving?

Yes, what about them? Again, I am not saying to do that or do this, or follow that or this, I am just pointing out my opinion. Geez, Yes, I do believe that there is one true God. Period. If other religions or denominations believe otherwise, I respect that as they respect mine. I am not to judge because my God doesnt. All I can do is live a life that is pleasing to Him and let the works do the rest.