Health Care - STOP believeing the BULL and buying the SCAM

[copestag]

well if you take the 53% of the workforce who pay ANY federal income taxes whatsoever and divide the total healthcare costs evenly among them........ your tax burden should only increase by about $34K .... not much I guess.......should be easy to pay for....... in fact.... you can pay my share as well..... you are correct..... I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PAYING FOR IT

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Oh, No! All the "Joe the Plumbers" in the crowd are coming out of the woodwork.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Because I rather not say. I have my reasons. My cousin and her fiance are two different people, and I'm not going to explain the dynamics or personal reasons as to why I specifically left that information out.

I also don't know who Jane Row, and no it isn't something that the public disapproves of.

Anyways, my point was that no doctor is obligated to provide their services to anyone. Doctors can and do turn away people who can not afford their services on a daily basis.

I think you guys are confusing the law a little bit. Some are saying if a doctor turns you away the doctor will get sued. This is not TRUE.

I'm not talking about going to the emergency room and being denied emergency care, emergency rooms can not deny emergency care to anyone, even if you aren't a US citizen.

I'm talking about going to the cardiologist, brain surgeon, oncologist, dentist, dermatologist, etc. If you can not afford a surgeons fees, and you do not have insurance, you will be turned away, and no, most of these surgeons won't bill you later either. If you are a cash patient, most of the time a deposit is required, usually 50 percent to schedule the surgery, then the remaining lump some is due by surgery day.

There are also other logistics depending on if the Dr is in private practice, whom the Dr rents his/her surgical space from, is the Dr associated with a hospital, is the hospital private or public, etc. All these factors come into play when billing is concerned, and who you may or may not turn away.


The point is, everyone should have access to affordable yet quality healthcare. EVERYONE, and no this isn't a sense of entitlement.

OK, let us try it this way. Please tell me/us how you would like to see the health care system change. Conservatives have the answer but with Obama Care, we have a problem. Unless we can make changes now that we have a majority.

Does absolutely everyone get free healthcare? If I am dirt poor and I develop a brain tumor, who pays for my care? And the after care? Perhaps you want costs dropped so everyone can be taken care of. Do we force doctors to work for less money or what?

Who pays for it? The rich or is it spread across all insured?

Rather than argue this, I would like to hear your ideas.

Sad fact is not everyone is equal. People die because they lack treatment; some people smoke, eat too much bad stuff, drink to excess. Do they suffer or do we toss them into the mix and save them as well?

Bob Maxey

 

[Mr. Boom]

I think you guys are confusing the law a little bit. Some are saying if a doctor turns you away the doctor will get sued. This is not TRUE.

Nope, never said that. What was said is you cannot be denied care at a hospital or a clinic. No one ever said anything about a doctor's office. Apples and oranges.

 

[hakr100]

OK, let us try it this way. Please tell me/us how you would like to see the health care system change. Conservatives have the answer but with Obama Care, we have a problem. Unless we can make changes now that we have a majority.

Does absolutely everyone get free healthcare? If I am dirt poor and I develop a brain tumor, who pays for my care? And the after care? Perhaps you want costs dropped so everyone can be taken care of. Do we force doctors to work for less money or what?

Who pays for it? The rich or is it spread across all insured?

Rather than argue this, I would like to hear your ideas.

Sad fact is not everyone is equal. People die because they lack treatment; some people smoke, eat too much bad stuff, drink to excess. Do they suffer or do we toss them into the mix and save them as well?

Bob Maxey

The answer is quite simple.

Mandatory health insurance for everyone, which consists of the same basic policy that can be offered by any for-profit or not-for-profit companies that want to participate. National plans, the same everywhere in the country, offering the exact same benefits for the exact same price.

The carrot for the insurance companies? The ability to offer their customers supplemental insurance plans that cover what isn't covered or isn't fully covered by the mandatory plans.

If you can't afford the mandatory plan, you are subsidized to the degree necessary to cover you.

Your employer can offer you the mandatory plan as a fringe benefit or not. If not, you can buy the plan on your own.

Universal health care coverage, same price everywhere, same coverage everywhere. You want more? It's available.

Oh...this concept already is in existence, but in countries more advanced than ours. Such as...Switzerland. You know...that "socialist" (hah!) European country.

Of course, the list of countries more advanced than ours is growing almost daily, while we slide back into the abyss so the corporate robber barons can accumulate more wealth.

 

[Mr. Boom]

There is only one problem with that. You cannot make it mandatory! Care and Insurance are NOT rights. They should never, ever be rights.

 

[byteware]

The answer is quite simple.

Mandatory health insurance for everyone, which consists of the same basic policy that can be offered by any for-profit or not-for-profit companies that want to participate. National plans, the same everywhere in the country, offering the exact same benefits for the exact same price.

And on Friday's mandatory lunches at Subway... it's good for you.

And maybe they can decide how you must spend your money on a car.

Mandatory purchases of GM cars/trucks for as long as the government owns them?

There's a reason that the government doesn't have the power to FORCE us to spend our money on certain items... and it's a VERY good reason.

 

[3devious]

Oh, No! All the "Joe the Plumbers" in the crowd are coming out of the woodwork.

I guess that is part of the "Divide, Label, Discredit" tactic that was mentioned earlier. It's reminiscent of when people on the left meet opposition, they call it "Pickup Truck Politics." I guess people need to not only worry about being called racist, but it also is somehow unacceptable not to be a latte sipping black turtleneck wearer now...

While, I have a hard time understanding how so many people supposedly not paying taxes results in a $34,000 tax bill for those of us that do. I would like to see where these figures came from before I went around trying to fill an already dubious conversation with insults and even more rhetoric.

 

[hakr100]

There is only one problem with that. You cannot make it mandatory! Care and Insurance are NOT rights. They should never, ever be rights.

Sorry, I think access to decent health care is a right. Virtually every other western nation provides its citizens such access, whether or not those citizens can pay for it all themselves. Our health insurance system is a scandal and really needs to be dumped in favor of plans similar to what other modern nations have.

This morning, I read where we had already blown $1.1 trillion dollars on our misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's trillion with a T. We have nothing to show for it. Iraq will revert back to insanity as soon as we pull out and Afghanistan will never be a real nation-state.

We need to stop military adventurism and spend our resources improving the lives of our people and the infrastructure they require.

 

[byteware]

Sorry, I think access to decent health care is a right. Virtually every other western nation provides its citizens such access, whether or not those citizens can pay for it all themselves. Our health insurance system is a scandal and really needs to be dumped in favor of plans similar to what other modern nations have.

I assume that you are fine with paying over 50% of your paycheck in taxes? I mean, really. Take your paycheck. Cut it in half, and see if you can live off of that.

OR are you saying you think someone ELSE should do this for you.

This morning, I read where we had already blown $1.1 trillion dollars on our misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's trillion with a T. We have nothing to show for it. Iraq will revert back to insanity as soon as we pull out and Afghanistan will never be a real nation-state.

We need to stop military adventurism and spend our resources improving the lives of our people and the infrastructure they require.

I'm glad you have already decided that we've lost.

You know who else decided that we had lost in Iraq? Obama. He stated that Iraq was unwinnable, and that we should pull out within eighteen months of him taking office.

The success in Iraq is so overwhelming right now that even he has had to change his position on Iraq.

It's funny, Biden was willing to credit Bush with the success in Iraq. Biden was willing to thank Bush for making Iraq a safer place for our service men and women. Obama won't even say his name, unless referring to who caused the mess we are in. I gotta say, that raised Biden in my eyes, and lowered Obama in my eyes...

But that's neither here nor there.

Winning a war is hard. It takes blood. It takes sweat. It takes time.

I've often said that if a state like Texas was to withdraw from the Union, that there wouldn't be much of a fuss today. Approximately 1/3 of the entire US military is recruited from Texas. They have a considerable military presence in the state. They provide more to the Federal Government than they receive from it. They currently provide most of our US based oil products (gasoline, etc..).

Civilians don't have the guts for real war anymore. If they succeeded and a war broke out... a couple of weeks and the civilians would be pushing for a truce and to let Texas be Texas.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Who me personally? Umm did I say that? You know nothing about me. Do you think I'm really that stupid, you really think that I THINK this is going to be free? You think I would come here and run my mouth about providing healthcare for free to people who can't afford it, without expecting someone like me would have to pay for it?

People like me will be paying for it, and I have no problem with that. Actually I hold the belief that the top earners in this country should pay more in taxes. I do pay taxes now, and I have no problem paying even more. The more and more I make, the more and more I should pay. I'm sorry, you may not agree with that, however that is the political view I hold.

The difference between you and I, is that I EXPECT TO PAY FOR IT and I DON'T have a problem doing so. Apparently you do.

This is what I believe
You think I wont work hard to get the best skills I can because I support this?
I WANT to earn a lot of money!
I want to be able to afford a nice (efficient ) car, nice phones (lets keep it relevant ), nice house, be able to take holidays, donate to charity.
But I am willing to sacrifice more of this income if it means my fellow citizens can be helped achieve a better quality of life.

Yes there will always be lazy people - semi-poverty and extreme wealthiness seems to create them - but if they dont wok hard they will not be able to afford a nice car, nice phones, nice house, be able to take holidays, etc.
If my taxes are going to help those unfortunate to be less well off than me, while I will not be happy to help those say 10% lazy people, I would rather help those unfortunate to be less well off than me and those lazy few than not too help those unfortunate to be less well off than me
Those lazy people will have to deal with there wrongings themselves

 

[Bob Maxey]

The answer is quite simple.

Mandatory health insurance for everyone, which consists of the same basic policy that can be offered by any for-profit or not-for-profit companies that want to participate. National plans, the same everywhere in the country, offering the exact same benefits for the exact same price.

The carrot for the insurance companies? The ability to offer their customers supplemental insurance plans that cover what isn't covered or isn't fully covered by the mandatory plans.

If you can't afford the mandatory plan, you are subsidized to the degree necessary to cover you.

Your employer can offer you the mandatory plan as a fringe benefit or not. If not, you can buy the plan on your own.

Universal health care coverage, same price everywhere, same coverage everywhere. You want more? It's available.

Oh...this concept already is in existence, but in countries more advanced than ours. Such as...Switzerland. You know...that "socialist" (hah!) European country.

Of course, the list of countries more advanced than ours is growing almost daily, while we slide back into the abyss so the corporate robber barons can accumulate more wealth.

Who pays for it? If it is mandatory, every man, woman, and child must have it and the money must come from somewhere, right?

If we offer the ability to pay for extras, like heart transplants or cancer treatments or something not covered by your basic plan, are we not back to the haves and have not

 

[Bob Maxey]

Sorry, I think access to decent health care is a right. Virtually every other western nation provides its citizens such access, whether or not those citizens can pay for it all themselves. Our health insurance system is a scandal and really needs to be dumped in favor of plans similar to what other modern nations have.

This morning, I read where we had already blown $1.1 trillion dollars on our misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's trillion with a T. We have nothing to show for it. Iraq will revert back to insanity as soon as we pull out and Afghanistan will never be a real nation-state.

We need to stop military adventurism and spend our resources improving the lives of our people and the infrastructure they require.

It is interesting just how many leaders arrive in the United States for care when they are seriously ill. Rather than argue, I'll let you decide what this suggests.

Who pays for this care? Do you know what it will be like to see a doctor if free care is provided to absolutely every man, woman, and child in the U.S. of A.? Do you suppose your free care will include long term care for cancer patients, heart transplant patients, brain surgery, and other severe problems?

Do you think that perhaps doctors will work under a big cap that limits their profit potential? I am betting it will. Then what? Perhaps fewer doctors seeing vast numbers of new patients?

I will agree with what I hope you are trying to say. Health care in this country should be affordable and we do have problems, but those problems can be easily remedied. We simply cannot afford to give free health care to everyone. And mandating coverage is not the way.

"Don't Tread on Me" Bob

 

[IOWA]

Sorry, I think access to decent health care is a right. Virtually every other western nation provides its citizens such access, whether or not those citizens can pay for it all themselves. Our health insurance system is a scandal and really needs to be dumped in favor of plans similar to what other modern nations have.

This morning, I read where we had already blown $1.1 trillion dollars on our misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's trillion with a T. We have nothing to show for it. Iraq will revert back to insanity as soon as we pull out and Afghanistan will never be a real nation-state.

We need to stop military adventurism and spend our resources improving the lives of our people and the infrastructure they require.

And their medical treatment sucks compared to ours. Why do you think all the rich fly here and have their work done?

Secondly, just because you think it should be a right, doesn't mean it should be.

NOTHING should be a RIGHT for ANYONE if it requires something from SOMEONE ELSE.

 

[ElasticNinja]

And their medical treatment sucks compared to ours. Why do you think all the rich fly here and have their work done?

Secondly, just because you think it should be a right, doesn't mean it should be.

This is largely because Europe sucks at pooling medical resources

Also the US has a way larger venture capital market than the split European countries

 

[IOWA]

This is largely because Europe sucks at pooling medical resources

Also the US has a way larger venture capital market than the split European countries

And do you really think Venture Capitalists would invest in a medical field that wouldn't put out a decent margin for years to come on their investment?

 

[ElasticNinja]

And do you really think Venture Capitalists would invest in a medical field that wouldn't put out a decent margin for years to come on their investment?

If you have top-notch insurance in UK it wont cover you to go to Spain
AFAIK if you have top-notch insurance in Alabama it will cover you to go to North Carolina

Obviously the latter is more attractive


And our medical treatment does not suck
Ireland has a fairly screwed up two teir system but even that is excellent (but costly)
UK has excellent treatment which is provided at a lower GDP PC % than here

 

[Crude]

Who me personally? Umm did I say that? You know nothing about me. Do you think I'm really that stupid, you really think that I THINK this is going to be free? You think I would come here and run my mouth about providing healthcare for free to people who can't afford it, without expecting someone like me would have to pay for it?

People like me will be paying for it, and I have no problem with that. Actually I hold the belief that the top earners in this country should pay more in taxes. I do pay taxes now, and I have no problem paying even more. The more and more I make, the more and more I should pay. I'm sorry, you may not agree with that, however that is the political view I hold.

The difference between you and I, is that I EXPECT TO PAY FOR IT and I DON'T have a problem doing so. Apparently you do.

I don't think you get it. You go to mcdonalds and buy a cheese burger and your getting a cheese burger what you are advocating is that the government buys that cheeseburger for you. Now YOU might only eat your one cheese burger but others will say " hey it's free, give me another" How long will it take till the budget is bust because people are going to the doctor for a splinter and not just a broken leg.

When I get sick I have to decide if I want to pay for the visit and then then whatever treatment is perscribed to me. I quit going to see the doctor for a flu a long time ago.

What you need to understand is that you aren't just paying for yourself. You are paying for yourself and 2-3 more that aren't paying and then you are paying for the second and third cheeseburger too.

There is no way possible this isn't going to cost more for those of us with a regular medium wage income. Do you think our employer is going to pay us more for the tax increase that will eventually follow? So now Americans are making less money, as a result best buy, mcdonalds, pets mart,....aren't getting as much.

I can't believe this needs spelled out.

 

[hakr100]

I assume that you are fine with paying over 50% of your paycheck in taxes? I mean, really. Take your paycheck. Cut it in half, and see if you can live off of that.
I'm glad you have already decided that we've lost.

I could live off of half my paycheck, but that's not really the issue here.

There's no chance either Iraq or Afghanistan will become stable, productive democracies. Iraq will explode into civil war sooner or later, with religious and ethnic elements slaughtering each other. It's already happening to some degree. Plus, Iraq is well on its way to being dominated by the clerics in Iran. The possibilities of Afghanistan being any more than an outline on a map are so remote as to be laughable. Our invasion of Iraq was the dumbest and most politically motivated move since our invasion of Vietnam.

 

[hakr100]

Who pays for it? If it is mandatory, every man, woman, and child must have it and the money must come from somewhere, right?

If we offer the ability to pay for extras, like heart transplants or cancer treatments or something not covered by your basic plan, are we not back to the haves and have not

 

[Mr. Boom]

Hey, I am more than willing to trash our entire medical payment system for a national single payer plan, like most modern western nations have. But that isn't in the cards for us at this time...we're still enjoying bending over for our corporate owners here.

Then i am glad that you are NOT in the majority! MOst "modern" Western nations that have socialized medicine, have crappy care at great expense. They all know it. Even the UK is looking at ways to dump it!

 

[IOWA]

Who pays for it? Is that a serious question? In the Swiss model, everyone who is able pays for mandatory health insurance, either directly or through employment. The premiums for those unable to pay for whatever reason are subsidized.

Which countries are more advanced than the United States? In terms of healthier, happier people? Quite a few. While I was earning my master's degree many years ago, I taught to help pay my expenses. I didn't do anyone's homework then and I'm not going to do it now. There are studies extant on this very subject, and they are easily googled. If you are interested, it doesn't take any serious effort to find them.

You are correct: mandatory means you don't have a choice.

Hey, I am more than willing to trash our entire medical payment system for a national single payer plan, like most modern western nations have. But that isn't in the cards for us at this time...we're still enjoying bending over for our corporate owners here.

It's a good thing we voted the liberals out of office.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Then i am glad that you are NOT in the majority! MOst "modern" Western nations that have socialized medicine, have crappy care at great expense. They all know it. Even the UK is looking at ways to dump it!

You sir have absolutely no idea WHAT you are talking about
Most UK citizens love their system

 

[krouget]

that's what i don't get either.

the rest of the world: "we do it better so everyone should be like us!"
the USA: "we do it our way. **** the way you guys do it."

sadly, our current President thinks like the rest of the world.

I wouldn't say that's the US attitude, at all, as we're not isolationist. As the world's only super power, we have arguably the greatest influence, with regard to the rest of the world, and have been involved with pushes towards democracy, for decades. Our foreign policy specifically dictates that we involve ourselves, in what we perceive to be, the benefit of the international community, among other things.

This policy was in place LONG before the 44th president took office.

 

[Mr. Boom]

You sir have absolutely no idea WHAT you are talking about

Yeah? Like someone from the UK talking about the US system?

Most UK citizens love their system

FYI, it has been reported on numerous occasions in many national media outlets, that the UK is looking to get rid of their system that just isn't working like they thought it would.