Health Care - STOP believeing the BULL and buying the SCAM

[Palmetto Fellow]

There isn't much competition in direct healthcare. I consider doctors and hospitals to be more colleauge-like than competitive.

For this reason, I feel that pure free-market capitalism with regards to healthcare is not the best approach. They aren't going to compete with each other and create an atmosphere conducive to the free-market. On the contrary, it's more like a monopoly, and as we see each year, prices go up, and up and up and up...

If there was competition, and the market was healthy, prices would at some point come down. I don't see this happening.

Also, there is little "competition" involved when a particular operation means you live or die. Cell phones...there is healthy competition there. If you are unhappy, pay your $200 ETF, and move on. At least you don't DIE.

For the record, I consider myself to be right of center, but left of those ultra radical capitalists who want to stop paying taxes, and overthrow the government. I am not blinded by allegiance to any party or concept. 100% pure anything is also usually a VERY BAD idea. There needs to be a mix at all times.

 

[byteware]

I guess in another 12 years we will see how it turns out. I thank you for one thing, I will MAKE SURE that I do what I can to ensure CANADA reduces our debt and be stingy to ENSURE we evolve our "FREE" Healthcare system for the better.

And rightfully so... it was (at least partially) strict regulation of banks that CAUSED this mess. Banks were forced to make subprime loans. They didn't do it willingly.

Without health you really got nothing...right.
All the money in the world does not help you when you are flopping around on the ground from a stroke or your super duper Doctor tells you that you got 3 months at best top live, nothing can be done.

And it appears we are both in the same situation in regards to these...

I think Canada tries to improve the QUALITY of LIFE for ALL not just some. Yes, we debate how we get it done, but we GET IT DONE even if we AGREE to take 1 step instead of two.

Even if you can't afford it.

I would like to think all the US Soldiers that died in the many wars died because they wanted to ensure their country kept stepping forward and improving so their kids have a better life. Look at the FACTS you had a debt problem that KEPT GROWING and you are doing the SAME THING again, raising the debt ceiling by giving it a fancy economic name. Maybe it's time to try something DIFFERENT???

Maybe it's time for Canada to defend itself.. that would be something different... wouldn't it?

btw- I see the US and China are now playing the who can keep undervaluing their currency the longest. Why would you play this game with China? They already got you beat and opens the doors for other Nations to get ahead of you i.e. India, Germany, France, Russia, etc...

I actually like the Tariff game. Tariff ALL imports on countries we have a trade imbalance with.

If they respond, then just shut down trade with that country. It's a net gain for us. By definition our economy will grow better if we force our citizens to buy those products from THIS country... keep that process until we have reasonable trade with countries, and others will begin talks to begin trade again in a fair manner.

 

[byteware]

If there was competition, and the market was healthy, prices would at some point come down. I don't see this happening.

The question you should ask yourself is this... what is preventing better competition between health care providers?

There are a ton of regulations that prevent just this type of thing, i.e. insurance companies prevented from competing across state lines.

 

[zauper]

The question you should ask yourself is this... what is preventing better competition between health care providers?

There are a ton of regulations that prevent just this type of thing, i.e. insurance companies prevented from competing across state lines.

This is false, as we established in a prior thread. I'm still waiting for you to show me a link to the earnings statement of WellCare's Florida subsidiary (WellCare of Florida).

Health care providers don't compete because the consumers don't want them to. As long as the folks buying insurance want to be able to get their care wherever they choose, the networks will have to go to each hospital, which reduces their negotiating power.

Though actually, there has started to be a trend in ESI where companies are willing to reduce the number of hospitals in their network in order to reduce premiums.

 

[byteware]

This is false, as we established in a prior thread. I'm still waiting for you to show me a link to the earnings statement of WellCare's Florida subsidiary (WellCare of Florida).

That's funny, because we established in that thread that this was true. As I recall, you admitted it was a barrier to competition, and you believed it made things harder unnecessarily.

I'll be the first to admit that I couldn't find that link online. However, that doesn't negate the fact that subsidiaries are a separate company control via stock.

Health care providers don't compete because the consumers don't want them to. As long as the folks buying insurance want to be able to get their care wherever they choose, the networks will have to go to each hospital, which reduces their negotiating power.

Though actually, there has started to be a trend in ESI where companies are willing to reduce the number of hospitals in their network in order to reduce premiums.

absolute hooey. Companies don't compete because creating a separate company to do so is a failing proposition. Being able to enter the market in a limited fashion is much easier when you've got your existing income to draw on. It's nearly impossible if you don't have ANY money to draw on.

 

[zauper]

That's funny, because we established in that thread that this was true. As I recall, you admitted it was a barrier to competition, and you believed it made things harder unnecessarily.

I'll be the first to admit that I couldn't find that link online. However, that doesn't negate the fact that subsidiaries are a separate company control via stock.

absolute hooey. Companies don't compete because creating a separate company to do so is a failing proposition. Being able to enter the market in a limited fashion is much easier when you've got your existing income to draw on. It's nearly impossible if you don't have ANY money to draw on.

What we agreed was that if you had to follow the state laws of the state you were selling in, there was no reason to not allow them to sell policies across state lines.

The issue is that the proponents of allowing them to sell across state lines advocate removing those protections, because the protections are what drive the differences in premiums.

You couldn't find it because the subsidiaries don't separately report (I followed the HC in a sell-side advisory role for about 18 months). They report as line-items on the "base" company (and even then it's generally bundled; it's a PITA trying to look at state-by-state business without a contact).

There is really no difference between allowing me to sell across state lines if I have to obey the state laws, and making me create a separate company that sells within that state -- I can transfer money to and from it as needed, there is slightly more paperwork, but that's it and considering the number of lawyers I need on retainer anyway the difference is negligible.

You can always feed money to your subsidiary that's losing money (it's wholly owned, it's not like you need to worry about whether the other owners will or not). The same way you could to any other arm of your business that's losing money. The issue is that the barrier to entry is substantial due to the high cost of setting up networks.

Also, you're confused -- the providers are not the insurance companies. The providers are the providers. Physicians. Hospitals. Nursing facilities. IRFs. LTACHs. etc. If you allow me (insurance company) to remove 50% of the hospitals from my network, I have better negotiating leverage and can give you a better premium as a result. That's also part of why HMOs have lower premiums than other plans -- I can control where my beneficiaries are going, so I can give the providers in my network more referrals in exchange for a better rate per person.

Frequently, when I am setting up my insurance plan as a company though, I am unwilling to do so -- I want all the hospitals in my area in my network, which substantially reduces the rate that the insurance provider can negotiate and drives up my premiums because the PROVIDERS don't have to compete since they're all guaranteed contracts. This has little to do with the cost of insurance, since premiums are largely driven by the expected medical cost + a what, 2-3% margin? That's not a very substantial margin.

http://www.calpers.ca.gov/eip-docs/about/facts/health.pdf

CALPERS has been focusing on removing high-cost hospitals from its network in order to reduce premium increases.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Like i said earlier, America rejected Obamacare on November 2nd. .

Please do not speak on behalf of all Americans. I am an American, I vote, I pay taxes, and I SUPPORT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.

Furthermore, the President was elected into office, with many more people voting in the Presidential election as opposed to Nov 2, on a ticket that promised Universal Health care as one of the key reforms.

I am so sick and tired of hearing nonsense and people trying to justify opposition to universal health care. It comes down to one fundamental component of basic humanity; every single human being on the face of this planet should have access to health care regardless of ones socioeconomic status.

Contempt does not even begin to fully encapsulate the vast array of negative feelings I have towards individuals who knowingly, willingly, and purposely expend energy in an effort to deny another human being access to medical resources that may save a persons life.

Millions of people are hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. People are going bankrupt every single day in this country because of medical debt. People are in foreclosure and losing their homes due to medical debt. People avoid preventive care because it comes down to either putting dinner on the table, or having your yearly checkup. People are dying because they cannot afford the medical care and tests that would otherwise potentially detect a life threatening illness. People will and are dying everyday in this country, because you do not support universal health care, what I consider to be a basic fundamental human right.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE ARGUMENT THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. That argument does not fly with me. An emergency room may legally have to provide you medical care when you get a paper cut. However, nowhere does it say that the emergency room has to provide you anti-cancer medication for the next six months that costs $20,000 a month. The issue isn't going to the Emergeny Room and being denied medical attention, the issue is the hight cost of medical care in this country, which as a result is instant denial of healthcare for anyone without $$$$$

Lucky? Yes, that is the word I use to describe myself. I am one of the few lucky and fortunate people in this country who has health insurance and access to some of the best doctors, treatments, and medications in this world. If I have a sore throat, or a headache that won't go away, an infection, or something more serious, I don't have to sit and ponder "how much will this cost me? Will I be able to afford my mortgage this month if I get this test done? How will I afford groceries this week if I need this $300 bottle of a 2 week supply of antibiotics?" For me the doctor is a phone call away. People shouldn't cross their fingers and hope to God they are "lucky" when it comes to healthcare. No one should be put into the situations I described above.

No argument about it, health care in this country is broken. Let's fix the problem, and NO, the problem isn't the proposal of universal health care. The problem is too vast and too complex, but let me give you one common sense example of something that just doesn't jive.

I go to my primary care doctor, for some severe pain in my knee. He takes an x-ray, and can't really see anything alarming in my x-ray. However, the skin around my knee was visibly red and swollen. Worrying I might have an internal infection in my knee or something else he sends me to the ER.

I go to the ER, to one of the best hospitals in this country. The ER physician reviews the x-ray that my primary care physician had just taken a few hours previously, feels around my knee a little and diagnosis me with a swollen bursa. Bursa is a fluid filled sac found in your knee. Gives me a prescription for pain killer. I saw the ER physician for a total of maybe 10 minutes. He didn't even order any tests, all he did was review the x-ray my primary had taken.

A Few weeks pass, I get a statement from my insurance for my ER visit. Anyone want to guess what 10 mins at the ER would have cost me if I did not have insurance? Take a guess. 500 bucks? Nope, 1000 bucks? Nope...go higher. 2k? 3k? 4k? 5k? NOPE....it would have cost me an outstanding 6000 dollars, for 10 mins. I could not believe my eyes, and the insurance settled with the hospital for a little under 5 grand.

I was in such shock and disbelief, I was certain a mistake had taken place, I didn't want my insurance company to pay the outrageous bill. I actually called my insurance company and said "hey there is something wrong here, I was seen for only 10 mins with no tests, no way this can be 6k, please do not pay this yet until you investigate" Insurance replied "well we already paid." End of of story.

So instead of denying people access to health care, lets fix what is broken. 10 minutes in the ER shouldn't cost 6k. Universal health care will not reduce the quality of health care as some people try to frightfully insist. Universal health care will not drive the country into debt, if we fix the real issues, such as outrageous costs for ER visits.

I have to finish by saying if I was someone who put a price tag on health care and a price tag on other peoples lives, then I would be disgusted by myself, disgusted to call myself a human being. I don't know how some of you do it.

 

[ElasticNinja]

^
Thank you

 

[electric monk]

+1

 

[3devious]

First guys, please stop thumbing your nose at the Canadians about being insignicant and hiding behind our skirts. They aren't really. As a matter of scale they are pretty active in the world and their combined exercises with our military are key to stability in the region. I wish we could work out more equitable trade deals with them, but that is what happens when you let politicians do things.

Canada has been much more responisble for themselves than the other "progressive" nations. That being said, they are trying to do it all. Defending their interests in the artic is going to be no small task. Their socialized programs may have to take a hit but they aren't as foolish as say, they UK (which is facing a lot of problems since those programs are so expensive and getting people off of the government nipple is difficult once people get to expect that nonsense.)

Foreigners can admonish us about our defense spending, but that is just the babble of ignorance. How we manage our military could use some work, as all of our large systems. We're going to spend a lot of money on breaking stuff and killing people. That isn't going to change. Throwing the Fed in our faces is the cheapest strawman you can come up with, congratulations. No one thinks it's a good idea, move on. Maybe someday we can make someone fix that but probably not, people are too busy taking advantage of it for their own sake.

Now when we talk about healthcare, again foreigners get stuffed. None of you are really doing it right and it's starting to come back on you. The result has only been people wanting free crap when it really isn't free. Call it health insurance, call it a tax, whatever. Saying that we don't want to do things the way you do them does not mean that we think our system is working fine or that there isn't a problem. Your current methods would make things worse here and we have enough of that going around.

I would prefer to pay for healthcare not as a tax but as a fee. I want to have some participation in it. Before we could even think of entrusting our government with healthcare, we need to fix the government first. In this country, it would be way too common for them to stop funding key health and human service operations in a bid to raise taxes. (Hell, that already happens with the few things we've given them now.)

I'm sure you guys in other countries have issues with your own governments. Ours was designed to be inefficient to promote balance and equity because of the checks and balances. They are failing right now. It is lunacy to add another expensive and exploitable system in the mix of something that is so broken and corrupted already. We need to focus on getting our administrators out of the "Going to Washington to do good and staying in Washington to do well" modus operandi.

Yes, Obama is smart he's seen the failings of our system and all of the exploits and has taken full advantage of them. He is not trying to better anything but himself, he is the consumate politician. That is the BULL and a SCAM that too many people buy into. The sad part is that he got his suck on the other people of the world, too.

 

[droiduzr2]

Please do not speak on behalf of all Americans. I am an American, I vote, I pay taxes, and I SUPPORT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.

Furthermore, the President was elected into office, with many more people voting in the Presidential election as opposed to Nov 2, on a ticket that promised Universal Health care as one of the key reforms.

I am so sick and tired of hearing nonsense and people trying to justify opposition to universal health care. It comes down to one fundamental component of basic humanity; every single human being on the face of this planet should have access to health care regardless of ones socioeconomic status.

Contempt does not even begin to fully encapsulate the vast array of negative feelings I have towards individuals who knowingly, willingly, and purposely expend energy in an effort to deny another human being access to medical resources that may save a persons life.

Millions of people are hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. People are going bankrupt every single day in this country because of medical debt. People are in foreclosure and losing their homes due to medical debt. People avoid preventive care because it comes down to either putting dinner on the table, or having your yearly checkup. People are dying because they cannot afford the medical care and tests that would otherwise potentially detect a life threatening illness. People will and are dying everyday in this country, because you do not support universal health care, what I consider to be a basic fundamental human right.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE ARGUMENT THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. That argument does not fly with me. An emergency room may legally have to provide you medical care when you get a paper cut. However, nowhere does it say that the emergency room has to provide you anti-cancer medication for the next six months that costs $20,000 a month. The issue isn't going to the Emergeny Room and being denied medical attention, the issue is the hight cost of medical care in this country, which as a result is instant denial of healthcare for anyone without $$$$$

Lucky? Yes, that is the word I use to describe myself. I am one of the few lucky and fortunate people in this country who has health insurance and access to some of the best doctors, treatments, and medications in this world. If I have a sore throat, or a headache that won't go away, an infection, or something more serious, I don't have to sit and ponder "how much will this cost me? Will I be able to afford my mortgage this month if I get this test done? How will I afford groceries this week if I need this $300 bottle of a 2 week supply of antibiotics?" For me the doctor is a phone call away. People shouldn't cross their fingers and hope to God they are "lucky" when it comes to healthcare. No one should be put into the situations I described above.

No argument about it, health care in this country is broken. Let's fix the problem, and NO, the problem isn't the proposal of universal health care. The problem is too vast and too complex, but let me give you one common sense example of something that just doesn't jive.

I go to my primary care doctor, for some severe pain in my knee. He takes an x-ray, and can't really see anything alarming in my x-ray. However, the skin around my knee was visibly red and swollen. Worrying I might have an internal infection in my knee or something else he sends me to the ER.

I go to the ER, to one of the best hospitals in this country. The ER physician reviews the x-ray that my primary care physician had just taken a few hours previously, feels around my knee a little and diagnosis me with a swollen bursa. Bursa is a fluid filled sac found in your knee. Gives me a prescription for pain killer. I saw the ER physician for a total of maybe 10 minutes. He didn't even order any tests, all he did was review the x-ray my primary had taken.

A Few weeks pass, I get a statement from my insurance for my ER visit. Anyone want to guess what 10 mins at the ER would have cost me if I did not have insurance? Take a guess. 500 bucks? Nope, 1000 bucks? Nope...go higher. 2k? 3k? 4k? 5k? NOPE....it would have cost me an outstanding 6000 dollars, for 10 mins. I could not believe my eyes, and the insurance settled with the hospital for a little under 5 grand.

I was in such shock and disbelief, I was certain a mistake had taken place, I didn't want my insurance company to pay the outrageous bill. I actually called my insurance company and said "hey there is something wrong here, I was seen for only 10 mins with no tests, no way this can be 6k, please do not pay this yet until you investigate" Insurance replied "well we already paid." End of of story.

So instead of denying people access to health care, lets fix what is broken. 10 minutes in the ER shouldn't cost 6k. Universal health care will not reduce the quality of health care as some people try to frightfully insist. Universal health care will not drive the country into debt, if we fix the real issues, such as outrageous costs for ER visits.

I have to finish by saying if I was someone who put a price tag on health care and a price tag on other peoples lives, then I would be disgusted by myself, disgusted to call myself a human being. I don't know how some of you do it.

You Sir are a good PATRIOT but the others will call you a Socialist or Communists (they don't know what that means but it sounds catchy to them).

It also sounds like your parents gave you some good core values or you are decent enough to apply critical thinking to realize that something does not feel right or make sense.

I wish we heard from more people like you to drown out the stupids.

I spoke to a stranger over the phone in the US and he said if McCain and Palin got elected he is selling his house and moving to France or Canada. Why? He is an upper middle class income earner. The kids are grown BUT they found out that his wife had cancer. He has a REALLY good Insurance coverage BUT he said I can not trust these people because we need to make sure we have money for our future and I am not willing to let my wife die. So either go GO BROKE or LET HER DIE were the final choices.

and he was a life long REPUBLICAN.

 

[droiduzr2]

First guys, please stop thumbing your nose at the Canadians about being insignicant and hiding behind our skirts. They aren't really. As a matter of scale they are pretty active in the world and their combined exercises with our military are key to stability in the region. I wish we could work out more equitable trade deals with them, but that is what happens when you let politicians do things.

Canada has been much more responisble for themselves than the other "progressive" nations. That being said, they are trying to do it all. Defending their interests in the artic is going to be no small task. Their socialized programs may have to take a hit but they aren't as foolish as say, they UK (which is facing a lot of problems since those programs are so expensive and getting people off of the government nipple is difficult once people get to expect that nonsense.)

Foreigners can admonish us about our defense spending, but that is just the babble of ignorance. How we manage our military could use some work, as all of our large systems. We're going to spend a lot of money on breaking stuff and killing people. That isn't going to change. Throwing the Fed in our faces is the cheapest strawman you can come up with, congratulations. No one thinks it's a good idea, move on. Maybe someday we can make someone fix that but probably not, people are too busy taking advantage of it for their own sake.

Now when we talk about healthcare, again foreigners get stuffed. None of you are really doing it right and it's starting to come back on you. The result has only been people wanting free crap when it really isn't free. Call it health insurance, call it a tax, whatever. Saying that we don't want to do things the way you do them does not mean that we think our system is working fine or that there isn't a problem. Your current methods would make things worse here and we have enough of that going around.

I would prefer to pay for healthcare not as a tax but as a fee. I want to have some participation in it. Before we could even think of entrusting our government with healthcare, we need to fix the government first. In this country, it would be way too common for them to stop funding key health and human service operations in a bid to raise taxes. (Hell, that already happens with the few things we've given them now.)

I'm sure you guys in other countries have issues with your own governments. Ours was designed to be inefficient to promote balance and equity because of the checks and balances. They are failing right now. It is lunacy to add another expensive and exploitable system in the mix of something that is so broken and corrupted already. We need to focus on getting our administrators out of the "Going to Washington to do good and staying in Washington to do well" modus operandi.

Yes, Obama is smart he's seen the failings of our system and all of the exploits and has taken full advantage of them. He is not trying to better anything but himself, he is the consumate politician. That is the BULL and a SCAM that too many people buy into. The sad part is that he got his suck on the other people of the world, too.

You know, I think your point in bold trumps everything else.
If that is the foundation that you are working from then yes, as you build higher you can expect failure. I can see your fear and distrust in the people you elect. I think term limits of 10 years or less is a great idea for ALL level of Politicians. I guess the of the people, by the people, for the people stuff is just hot air then.

 

[Hrethgir]

Every election cycle we have here in America makes Canada look better and better to me. So sick of this shit. And don't say "Then vote the bad ones out!", it doesn't work, because the person you replace them with is going to be just as bad. Anyone who wants that kind of power shouldn't be trusted with that kind of power, and our politicians prove that year after year. Sure, there are some good ones, but not enough to make any kind of difference. ****ing politicians and special interest lobbyists are ruining this country.

 

[3devious]

There is some nail out there that has been crushed into oblivion because you hit it on the head so hard, Hrethgir.

I can't defect to Canada because they won't accept immigrants with MS...
...that and I've lived the first half of my life in Michigan. We were the first line of defense VS Canada since Minnesota is failing so badly at it.

I do like Canada a lot, they are great neighbors and some day we'll steal all of their good ideas before we have to invade them as global warming forces us to grow food further north. I don't want their health system, but I'll take most of their hockey players.

PS: Just kidding Canada. Soon, you'll have more F35's than we will.

 

[Mr. Boom]

Please do not speak on behalf of all Americans. I am an American, I vote, I pay taxes, and I SUPPORT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.

Furthermore, the President was elected into office, with many more people voting in the Presidential election as opposed to Nov 2, on a ticket that promised Universal Health care as one of the key reforms.

I am so sick and tired of hearing nonsense and people trying to justify opposition to universal health care. It comes down to one fundamental component of basic humanity; every single human being on the face of this planet should have access to health care regardless of ones socioeconomic status.

Contempt does not even begin to fully encapsulate the vast array of negative feelings I have towards individuals who knowingly, willingly, and purposely expend energy in an effort to deny another human being access to medical resources that may save a persons life.

Millions of people are hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. People are going bankrupt every single day in this country because of medical debt. People are in foreclosure and losing their homes due to medical debt. People avoid preventive care because it comes down to either putting dinner on the table, or having your yearly checkup. People are dying because they cannot afford the medical care and tests that would otherwise potentially detect a life threatening illness. People will and are dying everyday in this country, because you do not support universal health care, what I consider to be a basic fundamental human right.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE ARGUMENT THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. That argument does not fly with me. An emergency room may legally have to provide you medical care when you get a paper cut. However, nowhere does it say that the emergency room has to provide you anti-cancer medication for the next six months that costs $20,000 a month. The issue isn't going to the Emergeny Room and being denied medical attention, the issue is the hight cost of medical care in this country, which as a result is instant denial of healthcare for anyone without $$$$$

Lucky? Yes, that is the word I use to describe myself. I am one of the few lucky and fortunate people in this country who has health insurance and access to some of the best doctors, treatments, and medications in this world. If I have a sore throat, or a headache that won't go away, an infection, or something more serious, I don't have to sit and ponder "how much will this cost me? Will I be able to afford my mortgage this month if I get this test done? How will I afford groceries this week if I need this $300 bottle of a 2 week supply of antibiotics?" For me the doctor is a phone call away. People shouldn't cross their fingers and hope to God they are "lucky" when it comes to healthcare. No one should be put into the situations I described above.

No argument about it, health care in this country is broken. Let's fix the problem, and NO, the problem isn't the proposal of universal health care. The problem is too vast and too complex, but let me give you one common sense example of something that just doesn't jive.

I go to my primary care doctor, for some severe pain in my knee. He takes an x-ray, and can't really see anything alarming in my x-ray. However, the skin around my knee was visibly red and swollen. Worrying I might have an internal infection in my knee or something else he sends me to the ER.

I go to the ER, to one of the best hospitals in this country. The ER physician reviews the x-ray that my primary care physician had just taken a few hours previously, feels around my knee a little and diagnosis me with a swollen bursa. Bursa is a fluid filled sac found in your knee. Gives me a prescription for pain killer. I saw the ER physician for a total of maybe 10 minutes. He didn't even order any tests, all he did was review the x-ray my primary had taken.

A Few weeks pass, I get a statement from my insurance for my ER visit. Anyone want to guess what 10 mins at the ER would have cost me if I did not have insurance? Take a guess. 500 bucks? Nope, 1000 bucks? Nope...go higher. 2k? 3k? 4k? 5k? NOPE....it would have cost me an outstanding 6000 dollars, for 10 mins. I could not believe my eyes, and the insurance settled with the hospital for a little under 5 grand.

I was in such shock and disbelief, I was certain a mistake had taken place, I didn't want my insurance company to pay the outrageous bill. I actually called my insurance company and said "hey there is something wrong here, I was seen for only 10 mins with no tests, no way this can be 6k, please do not pay this yet until you investigate" Insurance replied "well we already paid." End of of story.

So instead of denying people access to health care, lets fix what is broken. 10 minutes in the ER shouldn't cost 6k. Universal health care will not reduce the quality of health care as some people try to frightfully insist. Universal health care will not drive the country into debt, if we fix the real issues, such as outrageous costs for ER visits.

I have to finish by saying if I was someone who put a price tag on health care and a price tag on other peoples lives, then I would be disgusted by myself, disgusted to call myself a human being. I don't know how some of you do it.

WHat you are describing is a health insurance problem, NOT A HEALTHCARE PROBLEM. SO DON"T YELL AT ME!
Your entire paragraph in red is your opinion, NOT FACT!!

HEALTH INSURANCE is ridiculously expensive because people abuse it. They think they are ENTITLED to HEALTHCARE, and they don't realize everytime they go the doctor for unnecessary things like a COLD, it drives up premiums.

I really wish someone who wanted to debate intelligently, and not start yelling, ranting, and name calling, would join these discussions. The liberal psychobabble would be reduced to a tolerable level for everyone.

 

[ElasticNinja]

HEALTH INSURANCE is ridiculously expensive because people abuse it. They think they are ENTITLED to HEALTHCARE, and they don't realize everytime they go the doctor for unnecessary things like a COLD, it drives up premiums.

You do realise people DO THE EXACT SAME in the UK, right?
Its 40% of the cost per head as your healthcare "system"

I really wish someone who wanted to debate intelligently, and not start yelling, ranting, and name calling, would join these discussions. The right-wing psychobabble would be reduced to a tolerable level for everyone.

agree

 

[Mr. Boom]

Quote:
I really wish someone who wanted to debate intelligently, and not start yelling, ranting, and name calling, would join these discussions. The right-wing psychobabble would be reduced to a tolerable level for everyone.
agree

Clever, but disagree!

It's a fatal flaw of you lefties to think that you are the only intelligent ones. Also a bit arrogant and condescending!

 

[ElasticNinja]

Clever, but disagree!

It's a fatal flaw of you lefties to think that you are the only intelligent ones. Also a bit arrogant and condescending!

the funny thing is - if I could vote, our right-wing party would get my vote atm

 

[SamsungVibrant]

WHat you are describing is a health insurance problem, NOT A HEALTHCARE PROBLEM. SO DON"T YELL AT ME!
Your entire paragraph in red is your opinion, NOT FACT!!

HEALTH INSURANCE is ridiculously expensive because people abuse it. They think they are ENTITLED to HEALTHCARE, and they don't realize everytime they go the doctor for unnecessary things like a COLD, it drives up premiums.

I really wish someone who wanted to debate intelligently, and not start yelling, ranting, and name calling, would join these discussions. The liberal psychobabble would be reduced to a tolerable level for everyone.

HUH? What the heck are you talking about. You say I'm describing a health insurance problem and not a healthcare problem? What the heck is this guy talking about. If someone knows please let me know. Healthcare in the context of healthcare reform does encapsulate insurance and monetary factors. Gee you mean all these years of healthcare discussion they weren't talking about health insurance and the monetary aspect? Oh wow I'm such an idiot, silly me, how could I think such a thing, oh lordy I should really take my liberal ass and get educated on the subject, to think all these years I thought healthcare debates encapsulated health insurance in the context of healthcare reform, wow what a dumb idiot I am.

Also it is not up to you to decide what constitutes a necessity to see a doctor.

Also you said my original paragraph in red is my opinion and not a fact? Umm so lets see which part of the paragraph was opinion and which part was fact. I'll copy and paste my original RED paragraph below and lets break it down for the dummies in the audience, shall we?

My original RED paragraph below.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE ARGUMENT THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. That argument does not fly with me. An emergency room may legally have to provide you medical care when you get a paper cut. However, nowhere does it say that the emergency room has to provide you anti-cancer medication for the next six months that costs $20,000 a month. The issue isn't going to the Emergeny Room and being denied medical attention, the issue is the hight cost of medical care in this country, which as a result is instant denial of healthcare for anyone without $$$$$

Ok so lets breakdown fact from fiction for the dummies:

DO NOT GIVE ME THE ARGUMENT THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. FACT, NOT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE LIVING IN PREDOMINANTLY LOW SOCIOECONOMIC NEIGHBORHOODS AND GHETTOS. THE HOSPITALS IN THESE AREAS ARE UNDERFUNDED, LACK THE NURSING STAFF, AND OFTEN TIMES LACK THE TECHNOLOGY REQUIRED FOR TESTING. FACT, MANY HOSPITALS IN THESE TYPE OF NEIGHBORHOODS ARE CLOSING DOWN. FACT, I VOLUNTEER FOR AN ORGANIZATION THAT GOES INTO THESE NEIGHBORHOODS AND PROVIDES HEALTHCARE FOR THESE PEOPLE WHO OTHERWISE DO NOT HAVE ACCESS.

An emergency room may legally have to provide you medical care when you get a paper cut. FACT, YES THEY CAN NOT DENY YOU MEDICAL CARE.

However, nowhere does it say that the emergency room has to provide you anti-cancer medication for the next six months that costs $20,000 a month. FACT, AN EMERGENCY ROOM DOESN'T PROVIDE LONG TERM CARE, AND WILL NOT FURNISH YOU WITH CANCER TREATMENT FOR 6 MONTHS.

The issue isn't going to the Emergeny Room and being denied medical attention, the issue is the hight cost of medical care in this country, which as a result is instant denial of healthcare for anyone without $$$$$
FACT, IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO GO TO THE DOCTOR, THEN YOU WILL BE DENIED ACCESS. NO DOCTOR OR PHARMACY IS OBLIGATED TO TREAT YOUR IRRITABLE BOWL SYNDROME OR LEAKY SPHINCTER, NO MATTER HOW LEAKY YOUR ANAL SPHINCTER IS. IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD YOUR PRESCRIPTION FOR YOUR IRRITABLE BOWL SYNDROME AND EVER GROWING LEAKY SPHINCTER, THEN WALGREENS ISN'T GOING TO GIVE IT TO YOU AND YOU WILL POOP YOUR PANTS. IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY THE DENTIST, THEN YOU CAN'T GET YOUR CAVITY FILLED. IF YOU CAN'T PAY FOR THE EYE EXAM, THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH BLURRY VISION.


SO WHAT EXACTLY IN MY ORIGINAL RED PARAGRAPH WAS BASED ON MY OPINION?

 

[Mr. Boom]

Save your arguments for someone who buys it! The left intentionally try to confuse the issues, and that is how they win votes. IT IS LAW THAT ANYONE WHO SEEKS MEDICAL CARE CANNOT BE DENIED BASED ON ABILITY TO PAY.

...AND, HEALTHCARE AND HEALTH INSURANCE ARE NOT THE SAME!

AND YES, I DO THINK MOST OF WHAT YOU POSTED IS OPINION, NOT FACT. EVEN RURAL CLINICS PROVIDE LONG TERM CARE REGARDLESS OF ABILITY TO PAY. THERE ARE THINGS LIKE SLIDING-FEE SCALES, AND MOST TIMES THE BILL IS SIMPLY WRITTEN OFF. HALF OF MY FAMILY WORKS IN A HOSPITAL AND CLINIC. SPECIFICALLY, MY WIFE WORKS IN INSURANCE BILLING, SO I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS. THE ONLY PEOPLE REFUSED ARE THOSE INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO ABUSE THE SYSTEM. THEN THEY SIMPLY GO TO ANOTHER FACILITY.

THE LEFT INTENTIONALLY TRIES TO CONFUSE THESE ISSUES, AND ALSO TRY TO CONVINCE US THAT HEALTHCARE IS A RIGHT. IT IS NOT, YET NO ONE IS DENIED CARE.

YOU ALSO SHOULD WORK FOR MSNBC IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE ALL THE TRIPE YOU KEEP SPEWING!

WEEE! LOOK AT ME! I CAN TYPE IN BIG LETTERS,TOO!

 

[ElasticNinja]

^
Indeed, the American right rarely muddle up issues into non-sensical arguments revolving around LIBERTY & FREEDOM & AMERICA!! **** YEAH!!!!

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Save your arguments for someone who buys it! The left intentionally try to confuse the issues, and that is how they win votes. IT IS LAW THAT ANYONE WHO SEEKS MEDICAL CARE CANNOT BE DENIED BASED ON ABILITY TO PAY.

...AND, HEALTHCARE AND HEALTH INSURANCE ARE NOT THE SAME!

AND YES, I DO THINK MOST OF WHAT YOU POSTED IS OPINION, NOT FACT. EVEN RURAL CLINICS PROVIDE LONG TERM CARE REGARDLESS OF ABILITY TO PAY. THERE ARE THINGS LIKE SLIDING-FEE SCALES, AND MOST TIMES THE BILL IS SIMPLY WRITTEN OFF. HALF OF MY FAMILY WORKS IN A HOSPITAL AND CLINIC. SPECIFICALLY, MY WIFE WORKS IN INSURANCE BILLING, SO I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS. THE ONLY PEOPLE REFUSED ARE THOSE INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO ABUSE THE SYSTEM. THEN THEY SIMPLY GO TO ANOTHER FACILITY.

THE LEFT INTENTIONALLY TRIES TO CONFUSE THESE ISSUES, AND ALSO TRY TO CONVINCE US THAT HEALTHCARE IS A RIGHT. IT IS NOT, YET NO ONE IS DENIED CARE.

YOU ALSO SHOULD WORK FOR MSNBC IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE ALL THE TRIPE YOU KEEP SPEWING!

WEEE! LOOK AT ME! I CAN TYPE IN BIG LETTERS,TOO!

You still didn't answer the question, what points in my RED paragraph were opinion?

You clearly do not understand that in the context of healthcare reform, healthcare encompasses monetary factors such as health insurance. What do you think this entire hoopla is about? I'm done with you, I can not continue to communicate with a wall. If someone wants to insist that people living in inner city ghettos have access to adequate healthcare, then this person is highly delusional. If a hospital near the ghettos is lucky enough to remain open, they often times lack equipment such as MRI machines. Most often, these machines are brought in once a yr in traveling form, via organizations like the one I volunteer for. If having access to an MRI machine once a year that comes in via a truck, then leaves, while 300 people wait in line hoping to get a scan is access, then boy oh boy, we need to redefine the definition.

Also, just to clarify, if you can not afford healthcare you will NOT receive healthcare. You will not get your medication, because pharmacies are not in the business of giving away free medication. You will not get a free eye exam, and you will not get free frames and lenses. You will not get free dental work either.

One crucial mistake on your part is the inability to understand that money is a limiting factor. If someone does not have the money, in essence they are denied healthcare either directly or indirectly. Yes, anyone can go to the hospital, and get an MRI without being denied. However, that MRI bill will still be mailed to your home. If you don't pay that 2500 MRI bill, then it will go to collections. Once it goes to collections it will be reported to the 3 major credit agencies. Next your fico score will drop. As a result you will have horrible credit. As a result you will pay 30 plus interest on your credit cards. As a result you will not be able to refinance your home. As a result you will fall back on your mortgage. As a result you will be in foreclosure. As a result you will be homeless. Now take that 2500 MRI and increase it to hundreds of thousands, because this is the amount of medical debt millions of Americans have. YES THE NUMBER IS IN THE MILLIONS. Medical debt is causing people to lose their homes, lose their jobs, lose their lives, families are torn apart, and people find themselves hopeless.

What you fail to see is the bigger picture. MONEY IS A BARRIER, IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT, YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE, EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY.

If you are a working mother, living paycheck to paycheck. You are trying to feed a family, you make minimum wage, you can barely make rent every month, your utilities have been disconnected more than once, you have no health insurance, yet you also do not qualify for state aid. Do you really think this mother is going to get a yearly mammogram that she can't afford? Is this mother going to get a yearly physical and have her blood pressure treated? Is this mother going to have routine dental exams? No this mother is going to make the conscious decision to avoid the doctor. Although technically she can go into a hospital and get medical aid, this mother knows one month later a huge bill will come in the mail. A bill she can't afford, a bill which will cause the collection agency to call. A bill that will ruin her credit further.

I'm just so sick of this, I can't believe people are unable to see the big picture and to realize that there are millions of mothers like the one above living in this country not getting the medical attention that every human being should have access to without making you go bankrupt or ending up homeless.

Also stop insulting liberals. If being a liberal means I want my fellow citizens to get medical attention without going bankrupt, then I sure as hell rather be a liberal than a ruthless poor excuse for a human being.

 

[Mr. Boom]

(SIGH) It's obvious to me now that you will never get it, because you don't want to get it! It appears all you want is to wallow in anger and blame. Typical!

You can say it all you want. That DOES NOT make it true. The paragraph in red is what you think and feel. not actual fact.
No one is denied care. If you are, then you need to sue, because it is the law. So your arguments just don't fly with ME!

Also stop insulting liberals. If being a liberal means I want my fellow citizens to get medical attention without going bankrupt, then I sure as hell rather be a liberal than a ruthless poor excuse for a human being.

Not insulting. Sometimes the truth hurts. Liberals are destroying this country from within. They need to be stopped. And yes, THAT is my opinion!


I am getting good at smelling troll, and it sure stinks around here!

 

[ElasticNinja]

(SIGH) It's obvious to me now that you will never get it, because you don't want to get it! It appears all you want is to wallow in anger and blame. Typical!

He will never get what?
That you dont make much sense
I assure you he has

You can say it all you want. That DOES NOT make it true. The paragraph in red is what you think and feel. not actual fact.

He explained this clearl and concisely, IMO wasting his time for someone who has no concern for human beings outside of his family and (?) friends

Not insulting. Sometimes the truth hurts. Liberals are destroying this country from within. They need to be stopped. And yes, THAT is my opinion!

UGH - I'm sorry - you are starting to sicken me

I am getting good at smelling troll, and it sure stinks around here!

I agree
Mr. Boom's post sure have one major whiff pf brain-washed troll

 

[IOWA]

Please do not speak on behalf of all Americans. I am an American, I vote, I pay taxes, and I SUPPORT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.

Furthermore, the President was elected into office, with many more people voting in the Presidential election as opposed to Nov 2, on a ticket that promised Universal Health care as one of the key reforms.

I am so sick and tired of hearing nonsense and people trying to justify opposition to universal health care. It comes down to one fundamental component of basic humanity; every single human being on the face of this planet should have access to health care regardless of ones socioeconomic status.

Contempt does not even begin to fully encapsulate the vast array of negative feelings I have towards individuals who knowingly, willingly, and purposely expend energy in an effort to deny another human being access to medical resources that may save a persons life.

Millions of people are hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. People are going bankrupt every single day in this country because of medical debt. People are in foreclosure and losing their homes due to medical debt. People avoid preventive care because it comes down to either putting dinner on the table, or having your yearly checkup. People are dying because they cannot afford the medical care and tests that would otherwise potentially detect a life threatening illness. People will and are dying everyday in this country, because you do not support universal health care, what I consider to be a basic fundamental human right.

DO NOT GIVE ME THE ARGUMENT THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE. That argument does not fly with me. An emergency room may legally have to provide you medical care when you get a paper cut. However, nowhere does it say that the emergency room has to provide you anti-cancer medication for the next six months that costs $20,000 a month. The issue isn't going to the Emergeny Room and being denied medical attention, the issue is the hight cost of medical care in this country, which as a result is instant denial of healthcare for anyone without $$$$$

Lucky? Yes, that is the word I use to describe myself. I am one of the few lucky and fortunate people in this country who has health insurance and access to some of the best doctors, treatments, and medications in this world. If I have a sore throat, or a headache that won't go away, an infection, or something more serious, I don't have to sit and ponder "how much will this cost me? Will I be able to afford my mortgage this month if I get this test done? How will I afford groceries this week if I need this $300 bottle of a 2 week supply of antibiotics?" For me the doctor is a phone call away. People shouldn't cross their fingers and hope to God they are "lucky" when it comes to healthcare. No one should be put into the situations I described above.

No argument about it, health care in this country is broken. Let's fix the problem, and NO, the problem isn't the proposal of universal health care. The problem is too vast and too complex, but let me give you one common sense example of something that just doesn't jive.

I go to my primary care doctor, for some severe pain in my knee. He takes an x-ray, and can't really see anything alarming in my x-ray. However, the skin around my knee was visibly red and swollen. Worrying I might have an internal infection in my knee or something else he sends me to the ER.

I go to the ER, to one of the best hospitals in this country. The ER physician reviews the x-ray that my primary care physician had just taken a few hours previously, feels around my knee a little and diagnosis me with a swollen bursa. Bursa is a fluid filled sac found in your knee. Gives me a prescription for pain killer. I saw the ER physician for a total of maybe 10 minutes. He didn't even order any tests, all he did was review the x-ray my primary had taken.

A Few weeks pass, I get a statement from my insurance for my ER visit. Anyone want to guess what 10 mins at the ER would have cost me if I did not have insurance? Take a guess. 500 bucks? Nope, 1000 bucks? Nope...go higher. 2k? 3k? 4k? 5k? NOPE....it would have cost me an outstanding 6000 dollars, for 10 mins. I could not believe my eyes, and the insurance settled with the hospital for a little under 5 grand.

I was in such shock and disbelief, I was certain a mistake had taken place, I didn't want my insurance company to pay the outrageous bill. I actually called my insurance company and said "hey there is something wrong here, I was seen for only 10 mins with no tests, no way this can be 6k, please do not pay this yet until you investigate" Insurance replied "well we already paid." End of of story.

So instead of denying people access to health care, lets fix what is broken. 10 minutes in the ER shouldn't cost 6k. Universal health care will not reduce the quality of health care as some people try to frightfully insist. Universal health care will not drive the country into debt, if we fix the real issues, such as outrageous costs for ER visits.

I have to finish by saying if I was someone who put a price tag on health care and a price tag on other peoples lives, then I would be disgusted by myself, disgusted to call myself a human being. I don't know how some of you do it.

And i'm assuming you were going to pay for all thisvyourself right?


Why do people deserve anything. They don't.