Heartbroken

[nickdalzell]

Maybe it was because I was so close to my great grandparents growing up but I have this total fondness (fawn-ness?) for senior animals. Daisy was 13 when I met her, Jack 8, and I've known many others in parks like horses and goats that are in their elder years, and Bubbles is 5 (middle age for most rabbits, some live to be 15 though, others to 7, not sure his breed but he is getting slower)

Senior animals just have this way about them, they'e extra loving, never fearful, and are as stubborn as I am. I never could get into taking care of puppies or kittens. I never want a human baby either. But find me some grey old doe and I'm smitten. Old animals are like vintage wine--they get better with age.

 

[MoodyBlues]

Maybe it was because I was so close to my great grandparents growing up but I have this total fondness (fawn-ness?) for senior animals. Daisy was 13 when I met her, Jack 8, and I've known many others in parks like horses and goats that are in their elder years, and Bubbles is 5 (middle age for most rabbits, some live to be 15 though, others to 7, not sure his breed but he is getting slower)

Senior animals just have this way about them, they'e extra loving, never fearful, and are as stubborn as I am. I never could get into taking care of puppies or kittens. I never want a human baby either. But find me some grey old doe and I'm smitten. Old animals are like vintage wine--they get better with age.

I love both. For me, there is NOTHING better than a Great Dane's puppy breath! And holding a tiny kitten, so small, so vulnerable, so trusting...I love it. Puppies are fun to train--which is *imperative* when they're as big as my Danes--and just a laugh a minute as they're growing up. It's like they're still thinking their body is the size it was yesterday, but it's actually gotten bigger, and it's just funny watching them navigate the house. My beautiful Freddie was the ultimate mama's boy, protecting me like his life depended on it, yet the sweetest, most gentle, 'gentle giant' you can imagine. Whenever I had to go to work on a weekend--when NO ONE else was in the building or office park--I felt totally secure with Little Freddie by my side. He always, I mean from the get-go, had these beautiful, soulful eyes that gave him a look of...gee, it's hard to explain in words. Wisdom. Or maturity. It was like he was a wise old man in a puppy's body.

Over the years, as my animal rights beliefs became more and more entrenched in every single thing I do, I started adopting/rescuing adult cats and dogs. By the time Joy Noelle came along, every pet was well into adulthood, if not seniorhood. I really thought she was going to be my first cat to make it to 20, but she matched my previous record at 18+. Ironically, the previous cat who lived to 18+ also had renal failure for the last few years of his life. She had been doing really well...then everything happened so fast, I still can't believe she's gone.

 

[nickdalzell]

I still can't believe Daisy is gone either. I wanted to be with her forever. I hoped she'd make at least 20 but it seems deer live about as long as dogs--13-16 years on average. They start out adorable and get even more adorable with time. Also I have yet to find any animal with the depth that's in a deer's eyes. I'm such a deer lover. There's nothing as deep, soulful and hypnotic as a doe's eyes.

As a child, like toddler age, I was given a puppy for Christmas (although I don't remember that at all--just her as a grown dog) and she was a keshond (looks like a fluffy grizzly bear to me but in grey) and that dog was the only ANIMAL I trusted at age 6. I was SCARED TO DEATH of the neighbor's pets, dogs, and my god, especially HORSES. BIG TEETH BITE HARD...I only trusted Honey Bear (her name) and that was it. In fact, I refused to make human friends because they were so foreign to me. That dog took care of me, would spend hours just licking me and lying next to me (kinda like Daisy) and I remember overhearing my mother about the time I was 12 (and the dog 13) discussing with my father (I was supposed to be in bed but I could hear them down the hall arguing about it) that 'Nick needs to make real friends...he keeps spending all his time with 'that dog''

I thought nothing of it at the time, but one day I came home from school and Honey wasn't there. Mom at the time said she ran away and I thought that was kinda odd since she never left the house even if the door were wide open. But stupid innocent me didn't suspect anything nefarious. Later when I was 18 and in high school mom told me the truth. She had the dog 'euthanized' (KILLED) and said the vet claimed she had cancer. She didn't have cancer. The dog was perfectly healthy and eating and drinking just fine. Mom ultimately told me about the time I graduated she had the dog put down in an attempt to get me to socialize with real humans instead of animals. I never fully forgave her for that. That dog was MY best friend, and maybe that's what Daisy invoked in me despite her being a deer (but she acted like a dog)

I'm still quite upset just thinking about that. I still don't get along with humans very well. They're still alien to me, and I still have more in common with animals. Only now I'm a stubborn old man in a 43 year old vegan body, wishing to live in the 1950s-60s instead of this 'modern' world.

Also, I have NEVER seen another Keshond breed dog. EVER. Either they're not native to America or are just extinct...

 

[The_Chief]

One of the most somber aspects of being a pet parent is that we are biologically created with much longer lifespans. This places an incredible burden of responsibility on us to know when our fur friends are at the end; and to let go our selfish desire to keep them around and lovingly send them on their way.

WARNING: Tears inside:

Spoiler

When we moved into our Tennessee home in 2007, a skinny, dirty drop-off puppy wandered into our yard. We'd promised the kids a dog when we moved... they held us to it. Since she approached us and had a heart-shaped spot on her side, our daughter concluded that she was a heaven-sent angel. In that moment the scrawny Jack Russell Terrorist had a name: Angel. She was about one year old and we arbitrarily set her birthday as February 14: Valentine's Day.

She was a constant companion of ours. Her job (other than eating) was to bark - loudly - as soon as anyone came into the driveway; an unfamiliar person was walking along the road; or a leaf moved outside. She had a lot of nicknames: from "snicker-face wiggle butt" by the daughter to "Angel, you stupid dog!" by Alpha Dog (aka The Chief).

After age 10 she was slowed down by pain, lipomas and sundry ailments. At age 11, she was diagnosed with pancreatitis and we knew the end was near. She was doomed to a future of bland food, bland treats, and bland activity. It became a matter of quantity of life vs quality of life... when I started getting The Look, signaling that she was ready to go, I tearfully made the arrangements with a home euthanasia lady.

I personally made sure that Angel's last day on earth was her best day on earth. She got medication and treats. AWESOME food. We let her do something we had NEVER allowed her to do before: at 50 pounds, she was never allowed in our bed the way our little Shih Tzus were... but that day, Angel climbed up some doggy steps into bed with her dad and mom. You could not imagine a more ecstatic dog!

I gave her MORE medication (what's it gonna do, kill her?) and we took a drive through the countryside with Angel's head out the window, basking in the sun and taking in the fresh air. I turned around, however, when it was clear that she was wearing out.

The cherry on top was dinner. I'd marinated the thickest, juiciest, hand-cut ribeye steaks you've ever seen and I grilled them up for dinner. Two dog parents and three dogs ate like royalty that afternoon... that was July 10, 2017 and, to this day, the Darling Bride insists they were the best steaks I've ever made or she's ever eaten. Anywhere.

Just when Angel was really exhausted but in a happy way, the home euthanasia lady showed up. We'd prepared a little bed in the living room: but Angel preferred the cool concrete of the front porch: so we moved to suit her. While the Darling Bride couldn't stay out there and hold it together, The lady inserted the sedation and Angel was very comfortable. I stroked Angel's fur, nodded to the lady to begin the final injection, and loved on her all the way, until she left us for Rainbow Bridge.

While the two Shih Tzu money pits kept us occupied and merely wondered where Angel was for awhile, the Darling Bride and I were trainwrecks for quite some time. I had taken a portrait of Angel... and had it printed & framed, along with her dog tag. To this day it holds a place of prominence in our living room, right by the front door.

I told you tears were in here.

All that to say, @MoodyBlues that I know exactly what you're going through and you did the right thing, loving on Joy Noelle all the way out. She couldn't have wanted any better bon voyage than that.

 

[Bearsyzf]

when we were younger my older sister found a little kitten nd hid it in her closet until our mom found out, lucky my mom loved cats so we kept him and named him Bossy.... i swear that cat thought he was a dog. I I've even seen him chase after a Coyote.... he passed away when he was about 20 years old and i was very sad.

 

[MoodyBlues]

Tears indeed, @The_Chief... thanks for sharing. Angel's last day on Earth sounds amazing, and I'm sure she thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. I chuckled at your 'no bed' comment. 50 pounds? Shit, Little Freddie weighed 182 pounds and he ALWAYS slept on my bed! Your framed photo thing is really nice, a sweet remembrance of a sweet little girl. I'm planning on doing something, but I can't bear to look through the fifty billion pictures I took of Joy Noelle. Ultimately, I want a framed picture but I'm not sure if it'll be one photo, or a collage, or what. I can't think about it yet.

Over the years I had thought about having her freeze-dried, you know, kind of like taxidermy but different. Then I realized that, ultimately, she'd probably end up in a trash bin and I couldn't bear that, so cremation, as is my habit, seemed best. Although she never went outside--except for those highly dreaded trips to "the mean man" (AKA, our vet)--I'm going to put some of her ashes in the ground here. After my mom died, my husband and I planted a memorial rose bush by the patio, and we put some of her ashes in the hole before adding the plant. I put a sweet little plaque there, about always being here even though you're gone, so it'll be a good place for her, next to Grandma.

I have other copies of this, but when I alerted Home Again (the microchip company) that Joy Noelle had died, this came up--get your tissue ready:

 

[nickdalzell]

Whenever I hear 'freeze dried' I keep recalling that Mama's Family episode where Iola freeze-dried her mother's cat, Midnight. I think you made a much better decision Moody!

Luckily I took tons of photos of Daisy just in case (another deer I got close to, Suzie, in 2004 I only got one photo of and I regret that to this day--only so much you could do with a Sony Mavica FD-250 with .5 megapixels!)

Unfortunately, none of them will scale to the modern resolution of today's PC displays; not even my lowly Vista machine's 1440x900 can do it without distorting or blurring it, but I do have photos of her. Never got the one I wanted though, with me hugging her. She'd never stand still long enough if someone pointed a camera at her. She HATED having her picture taken, and would often turn her head away. If you got lucky and your camera or smartphone could take a photo fast enough (and not the 3-5 seconds my Kodak EasyShare did) you might catch her off guard and perhaps get a priceless facial expression..

 

[MoodyBlues]

Today is my brother's birthday; he'd be 65 now. Joy Noelle is going to help him celebrate, if she can pull him and Uncle Erik off their ham radios, that is!! I met Erik because of my brother. Greg was visiting me in Carrollton (Dallas suburb); I'd been trying to get him to get out of his very depressing environment and mind-set here in LA, and he finally came. It was supposed to be for two weeks, I think, but fate intervened: I fell at work and broke my ankle. That started a long chain of events, including his deciding to stay and help me. He was there for over a year. He met Erik because they were both ham radio operators--and both were also proud veterans (Greg Air Force, Erik Marines), staunch right-wing Republicans (*SHOCK*), disabled and in pain, and California natives. Erik came over one day--and Greg had prepared me by saying he LOOKS like a skin-head but he's anything but that! Sure enough, in comes this hulking, 6'5" 325 pound, shaved head Marine. We said our pleasantries and they retired to my office. Long story short, but over the next year Erik and I developed our own friendship, and after Greg left Erik fell on hard[er] times, and was losing his apartment. He'd been unable to work due to his hip problem, a degenerative bone issue that made bilateral hip replacements necessary. He was disabled, but not a disabled veteran, so he didn't receive any kind of VA compensation, just medical care.

So he lost his job, had run out of money, and planned on couch-surfing from house to house. I told him "I have this 4-bedroom house...you're welcome to move in. No strings attached, no rent, just stay until you get back on your feet." He was humbled and grateful, and moved in soon after. He took my daughter's old room, at the opposite end of the house from my room, and our casual friendship grew and grew. He became a dear, cherished friend. I would take him to his medical appointments at the sprawling VA hospital in Dallas, and talk to his doctors, ask questions. We were quite a pair! The die-hard Democrat and deep red Republican. I'd ask him if he objected to a t-shirt I planned on wearing--with an anti-Bush or anti-something else Republican slogan on it--and he always said no, it's fine, wear it. His car, parked outside my house, had a bumper sticker saying....shit, I can't remember its exact wording, but it was about two types of people, Republicans who are patriotic and Democrats who are not. I asked him once, 'so you think [my husband] isn't patriotic? He served for five years during Vietnam, and became permanently, partially disabled as a result? He's rated 40% disabled and receives VA comp for life.' "Well, there are exceptions, like you and [your husband]."

 

[MoodyBlues]

Jack the buck (deer in my avatar) I just got news he died in late 2021. He was 16.

I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge this sooner, @nickdalzell. It's not that I didn't feel your pain, I was just so wrapped up in my own. I absolutely love that you're a deer lover--and not the kind where that means blowing them away with a gun. It sounds like Jack had a nice, long life and his memory will live on in your heart--and avatar.

 

[nickdalzell]

That's ok. I know how losing someone special feels. Believe you me.

Here's some other photos of him. Taken with a Samsung Galaxy SIII in 2014. Unfortunately, Jack ate ANYTHING in front of his mouth--so that phone died an untimely death in the end. Well, the screen did. Turned like Hercules Monochrome green and then blinked out after he tried to eat it.

While I never got that photo of me hugging Daisy the way I wanted, I had better luck with Jack. He wasn't camera shy. This is my profile pic for my Google Account as well.

Bonus Bubbles Pictures!!!

 

[MoodyBlues]

Yesterday, a week since Joy Noelle left us, I was watching the time on my laptop's clock--which I have set to HH:MM:SS--waiting for 4:04 (the time she died). Big Brian, my now-oldest cat, and Joy Noelle were arch enemies. He *knew* she was the ruler of this house, and he didn't like it one bit; despite being twice her [healthy] weight, there was nothing he could do about it. They could occasionally be heard screaming/growling at each other--and, yes, fur did sometimes fly! After Joy died, I picked Brian up and brought him near her (on my bed); he growled and wiggled and resisted, because he thought there would be the usual unpleasantness. But I nudged him toward her face--I wanted him to see and, hopefully, assimilate that she was gone. He definitely did.

He's like a totally different cat now. Quiet, calm, very subdued. So yesterday as 4:04 approached, just seconds before it I saw Brian get up [he was sleeping near the foot of my bed] and walk over to me. He came to my right side, stood up and placed his paws on my right shoulder, and meowed. RIGHT AT 4:04:00. He then climbed up onto my chest, and plopped himself down. I cuddled the hell out of him, listening to him blast his very loud purr, and cried my eyes out.

BTW, he has the most beautiful, sky-blue eyes.

 

[MoodyBlues]

Chewy is such an amazing company, truly one in a billion. When I alerted them that Joy Noelle had died, not only did I receive messages of condolences, but also a beautiful bouquet of flowers. They said if I sent them a picture they'd add it to their memory wall. I put together this collage and sent it to them:

You'll undoubtedly recognize that last one, as I used it as my phones' wallpaper for the past four years:

 

[nickdalzell]

Nice UI design there!

I wish I had that kinda luck. All I got for 'responses' when mentioning Daisy back then were the kinds you'd often get from hunters. Nobody cares about the deer anywhere. If it ain't a dog or cat you got nothin'. I bet no company, not even PetSmart would give a darn if Bubbles died. I will never understand the bias against the lovely herbivores.

Couldn't even shop at a PetSmart with a pet deer. Not that I'd try (Daisy would've killed me if I tried putting a leash on her!)

 

[MoodyBlues]

Nice UI design there!

Thanks! I usually get snarky remarks about my choice of icons, or something... Anyway, *I* like it! I'm still using, and loving, ADW as my launcher--even installed it on my new Fire 10.

I wish I had that kinda luck. All I got for 'responses' when mentioning Daisy back then were the kinds you'd often get from hunters. Nobody cares about the deer anywhere. If it ain't a dog or cat you got nothin'. I bet no company, not even PetSmart would give a darn if Bubbles died. I will never understand the bias against the lovely herbivores.

I'm sorry. That sucks.

When I explain why I'm vegan to a truly interested omnivore who has pets--and self-identifies as an animal lover--I use their pets for an analogy. I'll say something like: "Imagine [their pet's name] crammed into a tiny wire cage with so many other [cats/dogs], there's no room to turn around, no soft padding or cushioning, just bare metal that makes their feet bloody. They attack each other because they're so stressed. Imagine her/him being hosed down like a piece of patio furniture--nowhere to go to get away, nowhere to dry off. Now imagine their day has come. They're dragged, pulled, dumped, whatever it takes to get them to the slaughterhouse. If they're unable to walk, they're chained and dragged by a truck. Once inside, they're hung upside-down by their back legs, and their throats are slit while they're fully conscious. There's no time to waste letting them die, so the skinning and butchering process starts while they're still alive and aware. Then you see their flesh neatly packaged in your supermarket. How do you feel about cooking and eating it?" (By this time, they're usually so sick they don't want to hear any more. I then point them to videos taken by MUCH BRAVER THAN ME animal rights activists, who actually get jobs at those factory farms and slaughterhouses, and once settled in as a regular employee, start filming undercover videos. You want to lose your lunch? Take a look at some of those videos. )

Couldn't even shop at a PetSmart with a pet deer. Not that I'd try (Daisy would've killed me if I tried putting a leash on her!)

That's weird! I mean, I took my Great Danes into stores all the time--and they're almost that big! Little Freddie thought the bulk snack area--with bins of dozens of different snacks, and you scoop as much as you want--was his private buffet at Petco! As soon as we'd walk in, and all the employees greeted him by name, he'd head straight to HIS buffet and help himself. The employees were totally cool about this.

 

[nickdalzell]

I get 'futurist' remarks all the time about the phone I use (Galaxy S4 Mini running its old TouchWiz UX that resembles Android 2.3) and I either ignore them or give them a snappy remark.

Around here, dogs/cats are often used against veganism. I think non-vegans relate better with carnivorous animals in a way so they can feel they love animals (which ends with dogs/cats, or snakes/lizards) and I truly believe humans have carnivore envy. As if they feel carnivores are the pinnacle of evolution and something to strive for. It's like they fear being prey so much but then there's 'vore' fantasies so trying to figure it out makes brain.exe stop working.

So often an argument favoring going vegan is a direct insult to their beloved dog or cat. I get the phrase "my dog/cat eats meat, do you also hate my dog/cat?" and I can't get past it. Any attempt to redirect the conversation towards the fact HUMANS ARE NOT CARNIVORES just gets taken back to their carnivore envy. It doesn't help that there's a carnivore diet movement taking place thanks to cronies such as Shawn Baker and the infamous 'liver king' (the latter eats raw organ meat like someone from Fear Factor)

At this point I'm just done with humanity. I have just realized that they'll die being the arrogant creeps they are and ain't nothing gonna change. I stick with animals mostly these days. My Bubbles, or any animals I visit at sanctuaries like goats, horses, and yes, deer.

PetSmart and pet stores don't accept any animal in their stores that fit either 'livestock' or 'game animal.' The latter prevents even the most well behaved pet deer (have you ever heard of Dillie? she was popular online) because the fish and game services made it illegal to treat them like a dog. They seem to fear anyone actually bonding with a deer because they have vested interests in keeping hunting alive and well forever, so even if you legally keep a deer, you have to follow tons of restrictions. No matter if Daisy had a collar and tag and wagged her tail and fetched balls (she did all those things btw) you couldn't pass her off as a dog because even humans aren't that stupid (yet). I often wondered if I could have tried, saying she was a 'whitetail retriever' but then I think the hooves would've given her away.


I don't know how it is anywhere else but in Owensboro, KY, our PetSmart will direct you back outside if you bring in a pet goat (even a pygmy goat) potbellied pig or a bunny rabbit. They cite some awkward 'health department' concerns and say 'dogs/cats only'.

The irony is a lot of places that don't allow pets I've seen people bring pets into. I've seen anything from a mini horse being pawned off as a 'support dog' at Rural King to a pet goat with a straw hat in a shopping cart at Walmart with a 'service dog' vest that I'm certain they bought off of Amazon. The really odd thing is as ridiculous as it sounds, and despite it being pretty obvious at the entrance that "No pets allowed, service animals only" (which means blind and disabled type assistance dogs BTW) the law seems to make it illegal for a store to do any more than ask 'is that a service animal?' and that's it. You just say 'yes' and they take their word for it. I wonder if the same rule would apply if someone brought in a cougar or trained lion like those from Sigfried and Roy.

As much as I love animals, I don't think a pet goat in your shopping cart or that little purse rat you call a Yorkie counts as an assistance animal.

 

[MoodyBlues]

If you don't mind my saying so, @nickdalzell, you're doing it wrong.

For one thing, NO HUMAN is a carnivore. To be a carnivore means eating a diet that consists 100% of animal parts. Show me a human who eats a steak without a baked potato or other starch! And vegetables. And salad. The correct word, and the one I've used for 40-ish years, is omnivore. So that's one thing you should change immediately.

Second, when I get the 'cat and dogs are carnivores, so you hate my pets too?!' I calmly explain that, A) they're not carnivores* and, B) I feed my pets animal products, too. *Cats must have taurine, which is naturally found only in animal products. When I first went vegetarian (in the '80s) I did not know about that and asked my vet about feeding my pets a vegetarian diet. He explained about cats and taurine, so that was out, but said that dogs can live a perfectly happy, healthy life on a vegetarian diet. My little boy, Freddie (the nearly-200 pound Great Dane), had been battling skin problems due to allergies, and we hadn't been able to hone in on the cause. For a year he was on prescription allergy food, consisting ONLY of fish and potatoes, two foods almost unknown for allergy-related problems in dogs. Since Freddie was eating it, and my 'kids' (Freddie and Queenie) always had to have what the other one had, she ate it, too. As I recall, a 20-pound bag cost around $50--and that was in the early 2000s. You know how long 20 pounds lasts two Great Danes?! Freddie's skin cleared up nicely. Because of how expensive it was, I asked my vet if I could try switching them to Nature's Recipe Vegetarian Allergy food, and they said yes. That's what both of my dogs ate for the rest of their lives. I had also switched to non-animal chews and snacks by then.

Then, when I'm called a hypocrite--because I feed my cats animal products--I calmly explain that I RESCUED these cats, who otherwise would've ended up in any number of awful ways: used for cruel, painful experiments in a vivisectionist's lab, shredded by a coyote, tortured by someone who hates cats, run over by a 4,000 pound vehicle, poisoned by drinking antifreeze, euthanized because their 72-hours were up, etc. So I turn it around on THEM! "So you think I should have let them suffer, instead of having a loving home with me, just to avoid being a hypocrite?!" I further explain that I certainly do not ENJOY or LIKE having to buy/use animal products, it's just a necessity in order to continue rescuing animals. I also point out that I try as much as possible to stick to fish, because at least then I'm not participating in the heinous abuse of the factory farm and slaughterhouse industries. You know what? That pretty much shuts them up!

The main thing I've learned after 35 years is not to let them get to you! No matter WHAT they say, no matter what argument they have that they think is really brilliant, I assure you there's a calm, logical retort to it. I remember at the HIV/AIDS clinic where I volunteered, a co-volunteer was asking me about my diet, and thought he had a GREAT comeback--he pointed to my shoes, which were black, soft, appeared to be very high quality leather, and said "But you're WEARING animals!!" I calmly took off one shoe and showed him the label that said "all man-made materials"...

I promise you that if you handled it right, you'd never get riled up over anything any omnivore comes up with. But it's a commitment you have to make to yourself, that you're not going to LET them get to you.

It's also important to explain that you're not dictating how they should live. They're free to do as they please. It's just that YOU can't live with yourself knowing you're participating in cruelty to animals, and if THEY can, fine. Let them ponder that. I've found out down the road a bit that some of the people I had these conversations with turned vegetarian/vegan after actually reflecting on what they were doing. Typically, after we talked, at some point they got curious and did their own research. Voila!

As for stores not letting certain types of pets in...whatever. It's stupid, arbitrary, and illogical, but it's their rules and we have to abide by them.

 

[nickdalzell]

I also don't advocate feeding carnivore pets a vegan diet (and that's made me quite unpopular in many vegan areas online and offline) either and I justify it the same way one would if they were a vegan working or running a big cat rescue/sanctuary. You wouldn't be able to justify forcing a vegan diet on a cougar, mountain lion, or tiger, in that instance. Plus, I always saw it the same as someone feeding bacon or burgers to a horse (yes, I've seen it done!)

But cue the anecdotes of vegans claiming their 'vegan' cat or dog lived to be 26 on a vegan diet, and then cue me responding to the many other anecdotes of smokers living to 100 on a pack-a-day to horses living to 40 on burgers and fries. anecdotes are not science nor peer reviewed science.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Also, I know humans are not carnivores, and in fact have far more in common with herbivores than 'true' omnivores such as bears, pigs and raccoons. For humans who claim that 'we CAN eat meat that makes us omnivores' well that would mean deer are omnivores because they've been seen eating birds, or that cats are omnivores because they love chewing on catnip. Behavioral preferences and taxomical traits are not identical.

But I do have a low intolerance to stupid. I am as sharp-tounged as Thelma Harper (Carol Burnett Show "the family" sketch/spin-off comedy series Mama's Family) and am not afraid to tell it how it is. I'm not the 'soft' type. I'm no softer on a non-vegan (especially a hunter) any more than I am with a white surpremacist or sexist. No amount of progress happened by being 'nice' to those involved with any atrocity. No one was 'nice' to Hitler, after all.

 

[MoodyBlues]

I hear you, @nickdalzell, but after years of slinging angry, critical, mean comments at omnivores, I burned myself out. I recalled how my Hindu Indian friend in college spoke so softly and without judgment about why they can't eat meat, how non-offensive she was, how she got her point across without anger. I *chose* to revamp my approach.

Oh, I still get my point across, I don't mince words, I'm very clear--explicitly clear, like when I link someone to an undercover video of factory farms or slaughterhouses (with full disclosure that that's what it is)--but I do it calmly and quietly. I no longer do the in-your-BLANKING-face method from back in my early animal rights days.

Believe it or not, I actually CAN have a very sharp tongue. But as I got older and wiser, and realized that an angry, militant demeanor just made the other person defensive and wasn't getting me anywhere, I changed my tactics.

I completely, fully understand why you get as heated as you do, really, I get it. It's hard to stay calm when you KNOW something horrible is being done, but if you can't get the other side to listen, what's the point? I wonder if you could trust me enough to at least TRY my method. When the other person doesn't feel like their very being is under attack, their natural sense of defensiveness doesn't go up, and they're oh-so-much more likely to actually HEAR what you're saying. They may continue saying you're wrong, you don't know what you're talking about, they'll never change, etc....but you never know! I've converted quite a few omnivores (in real life and online) over the years, but all were after changing my approach. I find that the 'what if it was your pet' analogy gets through to people more than just about anything else. Ask them to really visualize their pet in factory farms and slaughterhouses, the fear, the pain, the abuse, the stress, the utter lack of love or comfort or care, the cruelty...and then ask 'why is it okay for OTHER sentient beings to be treated that way, but not your pet?'

And, getting this thread back on-topic, three weeks ago right now, my beautiful, sweet, precious Joy Noelle was on my chest, cuddled in my arms, and had about 10 more minutes of life in her... 😢

 

[nickdalzell]

I lost Daisy 10 years ago. It doesn't feel like ten years. 2010 still feels like yesterday or last week to me. (probably doesn't help that's the era of tech that I use, and it still feels new) well, it will be ten years as of April this year. Ironically enough, that was the very time in 2013 that iOS 7 released (and one year later Android 5.x) and with it all great UI died as well as Daisy. Compounded my hurt and bias against 'modern' design (flat is so 1981 windows 1.x). Whenever I see flat UI all I am reminded of is Daisy being gone and the worst era of computing (CP/M, FORTRAN and early DOS)

I still remember fondly my playful annoying Daisy with the intro music to Angry Birds. I still got the very APK file of that version. I don't think I've bonded nearly as strongly to any animal like I did with her. Bubbles is extremely tied though, he's downright adorable and he's been sick lately (some sort of skin condition and lethargy) and only just starting to come out of it. I haven't doted on an animal quite like that since Daisy was sick. I think I've started being able to talk to animals other than deer, and not sure if Bubbles granted me that gift but I know what he's saying. Two days ago he looked like he was on death's doorstep (couldn't sit upright, back legs had zero strength and he kept lopping over) but today he's back to hopping around, eating and well, being more like 'Bubbles'. Still tired though, but I think he's coming out of it.

Here's a photo I took in late 2011 when Daisy had come up to greet me but I was hyperfocused on Angry Birds and when I looked up after hearing her 'huff' this was the face I got. If looks could kill:

Gosh I miss that darling

 

[ozonetrooper]

Not to be a burr under the saddle, but, I believe everything has a life and as long as there is life there is joy and pain.

Do fish scream when having a hook forced through their lip ?

Are fish farms any more humane than puppy farms or chicken farms or ....

Does a plant scream when it is plucked of its fruit or pulled from the ground ?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear does it still make a noise ?

Soo many questions that go unanswered in our lives and so many things moved to the "not important' part of our minds ...


FWIW, I believe all the above, do know.

 

[nickdalzell]

This isn't the place for debate, but you can be assured that plants have no central nervous system and don't feel pain. Anyone using the 'plants tho' argument honestly doesn't believe it themselves as I highly doubt they look at chopping a head of lettuce the same way they'd look at someone chopping a puppy's head off.

Even still, if 'plants rights' are your thing, then eating meat actually harms more plants since the conversion ratio is basically 100s of lbs of plants needed to produce 1 lb of beef, for example, so you would be 'murdering' less plants by eating a vegan diet vs. eating meat.

Had to go there, as I can't let that one go.

As for fish, they can't vocalize but there is plenty of science saying they can feel pain.

 

[MoodyBlues]

This isn't the place for debate, but you can be assured that plants have no central nervous system and don't feel pain. Anyone using the 'plants tho' argument honestly doesn't believe it themselves as I highly doubt they look at chopping a head of lettuce the same way they'd look at someone chopping a puppy's head off.

Even still, if 'plants rights' are your thing, then eating meat actually harms more plants since the conversion ratio is basically 100s of lbs of plants needed to produce 1 lb of beef, for example, so you would be 'murdering' less plants by eating a vegan diet vs. eating meat.

Had to go there, as I can't let that one go.

As for fish, they can't vocalize but there is plenty of science saying they can feel pain.

You saved me a lot of typing. Thank you.

 

[MoodyBlues]

I lost Daisy 10 years ago. It doesn't feel like ten years. 2010 still feels like yesterday or last week to me. (probably doesn't help that's the era of tech that I use, and it still feels new) well, it will be ten years as of April this year. Ironically enough, that was the very time in 2013 that iOS 7 released (and one year later Android 5.x) and with it all great UI died as well as Daisy. Compounded my hurt and bias against 'modern' design (flat is so 1981 windows 1.x). Whenever I see flat UI all I am reminded of is Daisy being gone and the worst era of computing (CP/M, FORTRAN and early DOS)

I still remember fondly my playful annoying Daisy with the intro music to Angry Birds. I still got the very APK file of that version. I don't think I've bonded nearly as strongly to any animal like I did with her. Bubbles is extremely tied though, he's downright adorable and he's been sick lately (some sort of skin condition and lethargy) and only just starting to come out of it. I haven't doted on an animal quite like that since Daisy was sick. I think I've started being able to talk to animals other than deer, and not sure if Bubbles granted me that gift but I know what he's saying. Two days ago he looked like he was on death's doorstep (couldn't sit upright, back legs had zero strength and he kept lopping over) but today he's back to hopping around, eating and well, being more like 'Bubbles'. Still tired though, but I think he's coming out of it.

Here's a photo I took in late 2011 when Daisy had come up to greet me but I was hyperfocused on Angry Birds and when I looked up after hearing her 'huff' this was the face I got. If looks could kill:

View attachment 165613

Gosh I miss that darling

It's really touching how closely you and Daisy bonded, and how much you love and miss her. I still have dreams and think about--and miss and long for--several of my pets, and time really hasn't made it that much better. I'm reduced to tears when I see pictures of my big, fat, beautiful Willie (actual name Wilshire Coronado, after the intersection in downtown LA where I found him); his death left me near-catatonic because it came 100% out of the blue. NO WARNING of any kind, whatsoever. I just went back to my bedroom about an hour after last interacting with him--and he was fine, his usual morning self, nothing extraordinary or shocking--and found him dead on the floor. I'm not surprised at all that you still miss Daisy and think about her so much. I'm sure the love was mutual, and so special.

Speaking of ten years... On March 11, it'll be the 10-year anniversary of my mother's death. I can't believe it's been that long. I remember everything so clearly from that time period, and I just don't know how 10 years have already gone by, but they have.

Last night I had an awful dream. I knew dreams about Joy Noelle would start--as I regularly have them about Willie and Freddie--but didn't know when. Last night. She was in some kind of large container, like a white paint bin/bucket, and she was really tiny, smaller than when I actually found her. She was squirming around and I picked her up. The rest of the dream is fuzzy now, except that it was definitely Joy Noelle and I was holding her and loving her. Then...she was dead. And I was screaming "no, NO BABY, you can't be dead!" And then she was alive again. And I was SO, SO HAPPY, holding her and kissing her. That's when I woke up--believing she was alive. I reached for her...and felt Big Brian in her place on my tummy...and started crying again as it hit me that she really was dead. 😢

 

[nickdalzell]

Daisy saved me. I was already going through a few years long depression after another deer I loved died (Suzie in 2005) and was on the brink of suicide as I was that down. No medicine nor any therapy worked (it's all a load of bull cookies).

It was almost pre-ordained that another deer lover would have pulled their camper right next to mine in early 2009 and introduced me to Daisy. Deer are that intelligent, and extremely loving. You'd need only get that kind of bond to one to understand it; it's like nothing you've ever experienced in your life. When deer bond to you they never leave you alone, and they mark their scent on you much the way a cat does (wiping their cheeks on you) and they 'groom' you by licking you constantly and their tongue is as rough as a cat's. They are just amazing. Daisy was old too and I'm a sucker for seniors. She was as set in her ways and stubborn as I was. She always thought smartphones were nothing but trouble, and she was quite correct.

Thankfully I don't have dark dreams like that. I've felt her 'presence' near me or on me (weight of her head or body next to me) and dreamed of her and me together like nothing had changed in the last decade (what we'd probably be like if still together now) and in those dreams she isn't blind in her left eye like in real life.

Daisy is largely to blame for my veganism. I figured if a large animal like her could thrive on plants what's stopping me? The only thing that kept me on meat at the time was the propaganda from school and my father (who was a doctor) that pretty much burned into my brain that humans need animal protein and calcium from dairy (in reality it's backwards). It was my bond to Daisy (who ironically had perfect teeth as old as she was--never knew an herbivore with bad teeth or breath unless they're fed meat) as well as stumbling on a few videos from Dr. Milton Mills that killed that belief. It's a sort of irony that the largest and strongest land animals on the planet just happen to be herbivores, while carnivores spend more of their lives sleeping. It's also ironic that humans claim to need meat to be 'as strong as an ox' forgetting that the ox eats grass.

Yeesh your dream reminds me of that scene from the movie 1408 when the dead daughter comes back to life and hugs the father and then dies again. "No!!! you bastard!! you can't take her twice!" and suddenly the loud blaring of the Carpenter's 'we've only just begun' plays.

 

[MoodyBlues]

was on the brink of suicide as I was that down. No medicine nor any therapy worked (it's all a load of bull cookies)

Sorry, my friend, but I totally disagree. I'm still here BECAUSE of medicine and therapy. I won't go into it much, but suffice to say that depression runs in my family, and I've had clinical depression since childhood, though it wasn't diagnosed until after I'd left home at 16, because my family--including a physician--thought psychology was for the birds (that's such a stupid saying!). That, plus severe postpartum depression finally got me diagnosed and treated. Over the decades, I've taken breaks from meds, but never could go very long without falling back into the abyss of deep, dark depression. Although I haven't been in therapy for a while now, I can't say enough about how much it helped me. If neither medication nor therapy helped you, there are a number of possible reasons, such as simply being treatment-resistant, but that's pretty unusual. Much more likely is that you simply didn't hit on the right medication or combination of meds, and the right therapist.You know, things have changed *dramatically* and are continually improving, so if you're ever in that dark a place again, I really hope you'll revisit treatment.

As for the dark dreams, I actually have nightmares--which started after surviving sepsis. If you're interested in learning about PSS (post-sepsis syndrome, which I have), please read this page, and watch its video (at the top), too. I have terrible, unspeakably horrible nightmares, and--like everything else in my post-sepsis, so-called life--my doctors can only say that it's unlikely there will be any further improvement. The worst of the worst were nightmares involving Joy Noelle being tortured, people holding me back and I couldn't get to her, and she was screaming out in pain and fear, and I was screaming "STOP THAT! STOP THAT! LET ME HAVE HER!!" I'd wake up trembling, crying, heart pounding so hard I thought it might burst. I'd scoop her up and hold her close and just cry. 😢 I guess if there's one good thing about her being gone now is HOPEFULLY those nightmares will stop.