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Help!! My church has gone to the dark side!!

byteware said:
I don't see any reason to remove a hardware mixer, and put a Mac in it's place.
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Well, replacing a hardware mixer and dropping in a computer has tonnes of benefits. Just ask any engineer at a broadcast studio :)

A.Nonymous said:
I'm not really a sound engineer type either. Personally, I'd rather not have the job, but sometimes we get pressed into service whether we like it or not. We have a large sound board that we can use to mix in real time. I could see a computer possibly replacing that, but I really like being able to turn real knobs.

I think part of my frustration is no one can tell me why the Mac is better and no one but me seems to question that it is (even though it is still in it's box and has not been set up yet). That is what kills me.

"You need to replace this Windows computer. Mac is better for a projection system"
"Why?"
"It's a better multimedia computer."
"How so?"
"It gives a richer experience."
"Meaning what?"
"Apple is just better for media."
"What does it offer that the Windows computer doesn't? What is worth paying the extra money?"
"It's a Mac. It's better for media."

Then I walk out before I punch someone.
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Yeah, like I said, not sure why it'd be "better".
 
Ok, I don't want to start another Mac debate, but I'll share what I know.

Presentations to other screens -

  • the Mac will have a digital out (usually DVI and a port connector accessory is required (or may be included)) - so it will handle VGA, DVI or HDMI video with just minor plumbing
  • it properly senses what's plugged into that port and auto-configs every time (all of the Windows-only corporate presentation systems I plugged into worked with no configuring - for some reason that always impressed people, claiming Windows was more work (I never understood that, just reporting it))
  • you can mirror the two displays or have the separate display be its own independent desktop and you make the primary whichever you prefer (primary has os controls as std interface)
    • that's so easy to config you won't believe it
  • some things do run better - Powerpoint on a dual-display Mac presents more options and is more straightforward that a dual-display Windows with the same Powerpoint - don't ask me why and I don't know if you use Powerpoint to display lyrics or if this matters

Sound -

  • the sound in and out mini ports are dual-purpose copper-stereo and TOSLink 5.1 - and you can mix and match copper and optical
  • easy to config sampling rates, etc, etc

Built-in mixing app -


Follow this vid link to a list of tubes that may help -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpUUKJeP7jE


This all assumes GarageBand, but that seems to be the #1 deal on sound mixing/recording on Macs today and it's either included or cheap, so that's my guess on what you're up against.
 
byteware said:
Like what?
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Well, instead of having audio effects boxes, you can just download another module for the soft mixer (Yes, you often times have to soften voices, add a touch of echo, or add in some echo cancellation)

You can do much more in the arena of what you mix on a soft mixer.

If you ever need more channels, you just plunk in another input card; rather than buying a whole additional soundboard.

Input/ouput options are much more plentiful on a hardware PC, coupled with direct to digital recording, right from the soft soundboard.

Jumper cables disappear, as now they become just channels inside of a computer.

So, yes, having a computer as your soundboard does have it's advantages.
 
PSkeptic said:
Well, instead of having audio effects boxes, you can just download another module for the soft mixer (Yes, you often times have to soften voices, add a touch of echo, or add in some echo cancellation)

You can do much more in the arena of what you mix on a soft mixer.

If you ever need more channels, you just plunk in another input card; rather than buying a whole additional soundboard.

Input/ouput options are much more plentiful on a hardware PC, coupled with direct to digital recording, right from the soft soundboard.

Jumper cables disappear, as now they become just channels inside of a computer.

So, yes, having a computer as your soundboard does have it's advantages.
Click to expand...

I've never had need for any of those features in a church setting.
 
byteware said:
I've never had need for any of those features in a church setting.
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You'd be surprised that quite a few people prefer great effects in a church setting. Nothing wrong with that. More people are looking for a place of worship that conforms to what they perceive as there regular lives. They want high tech effects and a great artistic message. If that is what it takes, the church has the budget, and the overall packaging does not conceal or subvert the message, I say go for it.

We live in a world were cyber-church is a true and valid concept. :)

In any case, having bemusedly observed the the "Macs-are-better-for-worship" debates close up, I can honestly say that the Apple cult is alive and well in church ministry.

The Android cult is quickly catching up! :)
 
Tre Lawrence said:
You'd be surprised that quite a few people prefer great effects in a church setting. Nothing wrong with that. More people are looking for a place of worship that conforms to what they perceive as there regular lives. They want high tech effects and a great artistic message. If that is what it takes, the church has the budget, and the overall packaging does not conceal or subvert the message, I say go for it.

We live in a world were cyber-church is a true and valid concept. :)

In any case, having bemusedly observed the the "Macs-are-better-for-worship" debates close up, I can honestly say that the Apple cult is alive and well in church ministry.

The Android cult is quickly catching up! :)
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, we've done some awesome things, going as far as full blown concerts, but I've never had need for voice softeners, and echo reducers...
 
EarlyMon said:
Ok, I don't want to start another Mac debate, but I'll share what I know.

Presentations to other screens -

  • the Mac will have a digital out (usually DVI and a port connector accessory is required (or may be included)) - so it will handle VGA, DVI or HDMI video with just minor plumbing
  • it properly senses what's plugged into that port and auto-configs every time (all of the Windows-only corporate presentation systems I plugged into worked with no configuring - for some reason that always impressed people, claiming Windows was more work (I never understood that, just reporting it))
  • you can mirror the two displays or have the separate display be its own independent desktop and you make the primary whichever you prefer (primary has os controls as std interface)
    • that's so easy to config you won't believe it
  • some things do run better - Powerpoint on a dual-display Mac presents more options and is more straightforward that a dual-display Windows with the same Powerpoint - don't ask me why and I don't know if you use Powerpoint to display lyrics or if this matters
Click to expand...
Our current set up is a PC with dual monitors. One monitor is the control monitor where we control the software we use to display the lyrics, verses, slides, etc..... The other monitor is simply a display monitor and displays the same thing that's on the overhead. This is so the projectionist doesn't have to crane their neck to see what's being displayed. It's just an extended desktop though. Basically we would need the same or similar functionality unless they decide to do things a completely different way. Display output on one screen. Controls for everything on the other screen.

I've personally never had any issues with plugging a second monitor into a computer. I've always found it auto configured correctly assuming the video card drivers were good of course.

Sound -

  • the sound in and out mini ports are dual-purpose copper-stereo and TOSLink 5.1 - and you can mix and match copper and optical
  • easy to config sampling rates, etc, etc

Built-in mixing app -

Click to expand...

Currently we don't do any sound at all out of the PC. It's not tied to the sound system at all and has no mixing software period. Maybe that's the reason they're going with the Mac. I have no idea. They're not telling me. If the computer has a sound card, it's the standard, crappy on board card that comes with it. Nothing special. It's not connected to the sound system. Maybe they have plans to change this. I honestly have no clue. I'm just the sound tech/unofficial IT guy so I'm out of the loop on these things by design of course.
 
byteware said:
Don't get me wrong, we've done some awesome things, going as far as full blown concerts, but I've never had need for voice softeners, and echo reducers...
Click to expand...

I hear ya... you should see the sound boards some of the bigger entities use... whoa. Ozzy Osborne would squeal with jealousy.

I am also finding that some people -- more and more, it seems -- just want a more conservative approach.

LOL @ voice softeners... quite interesting.
 
shadowninty said:
should the money not be spent on charitable causes?
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I see your point, but then you have to decide what is a reasonable expense for church operations.

I think a church could make the argument that, depending on the demographics of the congregation, a cutting edge sound system is a must-have to operate effectively.
 
Tre Lawrence said:
I see your point, but then you have to decide what is a reasonable expense for church operations.

I think a church could make the argument that, depending on the demographics of the congregation, a cutting edge sound system is a must-have to operate effectively.
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I'm going to come in and sort of disagree with both of you. I do think churches can go over the edge. Personally, I think the strobe lights, smoke effects, pyro, etc.... that some churches go to is a little over the edge. There is a point when the way you're conveying message overshadows the message. People leave feeling that they've seen a great show, but really not getting much at all out of the message. They've been entertained and that's fine and good, but that's really not what the church is all about.

On the other hand, there's a point where the lack of any sort of production values can take away from the message as well. Our church will seat about 300-400 people. The pastor could stand behind the pulpit and yell at the top of his lungs, but half the congregation wouldn't be able to understand him and would leave getting next to nothing at all because they wouldn't hear anything he said.

In any case, the sound system in our church is the original one from when the building was built 30 years ago. Needless to say, the thing has developed quite a few issues over the decades and desperately needed to be replaced. We had guests in the past comment that they didn't get as much out of the sermon as they could because they didn't know the lyrics to any of the songs and couldn't sing along so we added the projection system 5-6 years ago. We've had people tell us they were going to come back just because it was easier to follow the service. There's a happy medium in the middle and we're trying to find it. How successful we are, I can't say, but I think there is a happy medium there.

Personally, I'm a bit taken aback by people who go to a particular church because it's edgier or has fancy strobe lights or whatever. To me the message is the message. Sometimes the person communicating the message can get in the way of that if he/she isn't careful. Just my two cents. Probably worth what you paid for it. :)
 
its just.. I was of the belief that Protestant churches were by and large more frugal than Catholic ones... certainly in my experience this is the case (of course they have a much smaller userbase over here).. but iMacs and pyrotechnics... LOL :D
 
shadowninty said:
its just.. I was of the belief that Protestant churches were by and large more frugal than Catholic ones... certainly in my experience this is the case (of course they have a much smaller userbase over here).. but iMacs and pyrotechnics... LOL :D
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The iMacs we have. The pyro will probably have to wait 'til next year. :D
 
A.non, I think we agree more than you believe. This is quite a common line of discussion in church/tech circles.

One thing I have learned as a church worker is that no matter how "conservative"you are, there are some that will think you are too forward. The opposite is true.

While not exactly my cup of tea, if you can show me a church that does reach the people it is trying to reach effectively, and glorifies God, and authentically makes a difference in its community, I will gladly polish the strobe lights.

Also, the message is the Message, but most of us will gravitate to the type of presentation that resounds with us. It is up to the shepherds to make sure the medium doesn't cover that Message.
 
I am a volunteer tech at a very large 'multi-site' church. This church records the Pastor in 1080p HD and projects that using movie theather quality projectors to campuses all around our city as well as to other sites around the country. Many of the software pieces we use run better on the mac. I know the video editing software, Propresenter (which is like Power Point for songs) etc. I know this because we have used PCs before and they seem unreliable running these software pieces. It also could be there is better Mac support from the developer.

I also have many Christian friends from numerous churches and its also a cultural thing. Most Christians, especially ones who are wanting to be 'relevant' to non-Christians prefer Macs and iDevices.

I consider myself somewhat unbiased and familiar with all platforms. At work I use PCs, I have an Android phone and I have an old iMac at home. I am well aware that a lot of software runs better on PCs and there are some things that are just better on the Android as well.
 
mstyle88 said:
I also have many Christian friends from numerous churches and its also a cultural thing. Most Christians, especially ones who are wanting to be 'relevant' to non-Christians prefer Macs and iDevices.
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Very, very well said. I concur.

Are you with Lifechurch? :)
 
I dont, I attend Central Christian in Las Vegas. I am familiar with Lifechurch and have listened to a lot of their podcasts. Really like the paster. Craig Groeschel, right?
 
mstyle88 said:
I dont, I attend Central Christian in Las Vegas. I am familiar with Lifechurch and have listened to a lot of their podcasts. Really like the paster. Craig Groeschel, right?
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Yep... big fan of their mobile bible software YouVersion.

Central... is that Wilhite (sp?) that's the Lead pastor there? Heard some great things in the area of planting and use of technology.
 
mstyle88 said:
I also have many Christian friends from numerous churches and its also a cultural thing. Most Christians, especially ones who are wanting to be 'relevant' to non-Christians prefer Macs and iDevices.
Click to expand...

Maybe that's where I'm missing it. I can't imagine someone using the fact that the church runs their projection system on a PC instead of a Mac (or vice versa) as a reason to not go to a particular church. That just seems ridiculously trivial.

Anyway, in our case, the PC works perfectly. In the 5 or 6 years we've had it, we've never run into a situation where we wanted to do XYZ, but couldn't because of the limitations of the system. The system just works which is why I have problems grasping replacing it because "the Mac is better". It's like they're all being sucked down the Apple rabbit hole and are drinking the Kool aid by the gallon.
 
Churches have way too much disposable income that they have to spend.
Just look at all of them in my town....
Not only do they want your CREDIT REPORT :eek: but they have better gear than a Hollywood studio all to ensure that the cash flows.

And that 'macs are better at multimedia' myth persists.
I don't get why they even try that junk because it takes 30 seconds to shoot that one down.
 
This church must be rich. Wasting money to replace a system that works perfectly well is not very christian. I am sure there would have been better uses of that money. That is the point I would make.

And pushing people to buy $400 gadgets is the same. If they need an iPhone for other reasons that is OK. But to just follow the lyrics in church is no good reason - especially with your new superscreen.

Is there nobody that controls the budget of that place. And suggest to the members to donate the $400 for a good cause instead.
 
Honestly, I think the pastor really, truly buys the myth. I don't think this is malicious or anything. Someone told him that the PC system sucks and the Mac system is better. Someone has convinced him that we will reach more people more efficiently with a Mac than a PC.

The iPad thing I can't really defend. I think they've just drunk the Apple Koolaid on that one.
 
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