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Help!! My church has gone to the dark side!!

A.Nonymous said:
Honestly, I think the pastor really, truly buys the myth. I don't think this is malicious or anything. Someone told him that the PC system sucks and the Mac system is better. Someone has convinced him that we will reach more people more efficiently with a Mac than a PC.

The iPad thing I can't really defend. I think they've just drunk the Apple Koolaid on that one.
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In my country a Pastor would be an educated man with an academic education. You would think that he would get a second opinion and do some research of his own. And what about all this wasted money. I am sure there would have been better causes to which to apply the money. I would make them feel bad now - like they are wasting the Lords resources.
 
I don't feel like the sound system is wasted money. We're replacing a 30 year old system with hisses, pops, blown speakers and all kinds of other issues with a new system that actually works. How is that a waste? The iMac I find difficult to defend I must confess.
 
My school is the same , All of the computers in the office are Mac's , But most of them run windows 7(Bootcamp) . I don't have a problem with it though.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Honestly, I think the pastor really, truly buys the myth. I don't think this is malicious or anything. Someone told him that the PC system sucks and the Mac system is better. Someone has convinced him that we will reach more people more efficiently with a Mac than a PC.

The iPad thing I can't really defend. I think they've just drunk the Apple Koolaid on that one.
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So ask your pastor how will having an all mac system bring in more people? Are they going to advertise around town of hey look we have a mac system so we can get in touch with god better?

Shocking the Mac guy didnt say God uses mac in his sales pitch.


Has anyone in the church ask do we have anyone that can run the mac system? Sure they say its simple but if you dont know the software. How will you all do your presentation.


Ask the church if you cant have all the PC system they will be getting rid of.
 
Dark Jedi said:
So ask your pastor how will having an all mac system bring in more people? Are they going to advertise around town of hey look we have a mac system so we can get in touch with god better?

Shocking the Mac guy didnt say God uses mac in his sales pitch.


Has anyone in the church ask do we have anyone that can run the mac system? Sure they say its simple but if you dont know the software. How will you all do your presentation.


Ask the church if you cant have all the PC system they will be getting rid of.
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I've thought about asking if I can have the PC system. It's a nice system and just works. I know. I built it and put it together for them a few years ago. They already told me I can have any of the old sound equipment as they're getting rid of most of it. Some of the stuff that actually still works they're going to keep to use when we have events outside the church. I don't really have a use for a 30 year old monitor wedge though.

No one in the church that I know of is a Mac person. Part of the sales pitch was that Macs are easier to use than Windows. Rather than us having to train someone in the Windows software (which really only takes a service or two now) they told him that anyone can pick it up and use it. Macs are better you know.
 
Dude macs are better then pc's. I could write a book about it. Macs have better hardware, and mac os x is awesome and the ui is so clean. But ios sucks compared to android :)
 
So, was your issue that you don't know how to support a Mac, why they fixed something that wasn't broken, that they're not seeing things your way, or that you need an alternative to their approach with iPads et al?
 
Socrats said:
Dude macs are better then pc's. I could write a book about it. Macs have better hardware, and mac os x is awesome and the ui is so clean. But ios sucks compared to android :)
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Maybe you can answer my question then. Is a mac appreciably better that it's worth scrapping a system that is functioning with no problems that everyone is familiar with to switch to a system that no one is familiar with and has no idea if it'll work or not?

EarlyMon said:
So, was your issue that you don't know how to support a Mac, why they fixed something that wasn't broken, that they're not seeing things your way, or that you need an alternative to their approach with iPads et al?
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I have several issues honestly.

1. I'm the unofficial IT guy and I have no clue how to support a Mac. No one else in the church does either that I know of. When this breaks, who's going to fix it? Of course Macs never break so you don't need a support person. That's why they're better than Windows.

2. Why did they fix something that wasn't broken? I'm an IT consultant for a living. IMO there are two reasons to replace a system - 1. It's broken. 2. It shows signs that it is going to break soon or it's very old and we're being proactive. Neither of those applies here. The software works with no issues. The hardware running it works with no issues. It's a 2 year old computer at best and ALL it does is run projection. Has no other programs on it. Isn't even connected to the Internet. No one is allowed to install anything. Barring hardware problems (which is what deep sixed the original projection computer), it's virtually fail proof. Why fix it?

3. Why was I not consulted? Not asking that they take my advice and run with it, but just that I be asked.

4. General frustration that my friends are turning into Apple lemmings. No clue what the differences are between Apple and anything else, but thoroughly convinced that Apple is better. They suddenly have a desire to snatch up anything and everything with an Apple logo on it, iPad included.

5. General frustration at being labeled difficult, obstinate, stubborn, etc... just because I want an actual reason why Mac is better that's something other than "just because."

6. General amazement at how Apple has completely brainwashed the masses and general wonderment at why other tech companies have failed at doing the same.
 
Dood - don't take this the wrong way, but srsly - decaf.

The Mac / Win debate has raged for over 25 years. You're not to stop it, solve it or cure it - and taking it personally is only raising your blood pressure for no good reason.

Your mind is clearly made up and you've got no room to change it. But your situation is changing and you can't control that. Get off the hate bus before you have an apoplexy, and I mean that for your health not as a smart remark.

For whatever reason, they've decided to change. If you can't respect that and just agree to disagree, find a group you can respect.

Believe it or not, some Mac hardware is very well priced for what you get - some is not - just like any product from any company.

The way you've presented things seems to make it clear that they fixed something not broken and are wasting money. As I believe that all presently-available operating systems and hardware are equal fails (except for Android, actually), I don't have a dog in this fight.

For any application, you pick the right tool, regardless of brand and o/s, and you pay the man his money.

Either they know or see something you don't and they're right or you are. Sometimes, the better wisdom is not related to a Mac being over-priced, it's related to being open to the possibility that no matter how sure you're right, you could be wrong. (I'm often wrong myself. ;))

You'll find vociferous supporters either way in Mac pricing and that leads to the other quarter-century-old flame war - and right now, the flame war in your mind is already consuming you, and all you're really going to accomplish on your present path is a flame war you'll lead - while your blood pressure skyrockets. And for what?

You can advise them of their alternatives - but you can only propose, after that, they dispose.

As I said - dood, srsly, decaf. ;)

PS - I don't want to sound preachy, but I know of no other way to say this: this experience, in the end, might be the best growth opportunity you've had in your perspective on IT users. In that case, think of the added money they've already spent as being an investment in you personally. Just an opinion from an off-hand thought, apologies in advance if that's in any way offensive.
 
I think he is feeling hurt because he had a hand in creating the original setup. Now they are throwing to the curb for a mac which he has no knowledge so he feels like they wont need him as he knows nothing about the Macs. Instead of cussing about it. why not look at it as an opportunity to be in the situation of learning on a Mac and see if its better or worse or even equal to a pc. Don't be so closed minded on the situation at hand. After all don't the bible say to be understanding of your fellow man. Apply it to the Computer system.

Are you afraid you might in the end like the mac better? Yeah lay off the decaf.
 
^This - you've said it in fewer words.

I'd be hurt too, and outraged at the wasted money and confounded by fixing something not broken.

But you'll soon find this is a common, yet survivable, problem in life and the hurt goes away when the hate does.
 
I think having to deal with even more Apple lemmings and being pressured to become an Apple lemming myself is the crux of it. I don't know how Apple has done it. They did not create a product that is appreciably better than anything else on the market. I am sure there are some things that Macs excel at over PCs. I am equally sure that there are things that PCs excel at over Macs. Yet Apple has some how convinced their lemming followers that Macs are better at everything without even giving them any reasons why.

I could ask a Republican why Republicans are better for the country. They would give me a dozen reasons why. They would rant and rave about the evils of their Democratic counterparts and would ramble off all the reasons why. It would be the same if you asked a Democrat about Republicans. Yet in the PC vs Mac world, the rabid fanboys all chant the same chorus, "It's just better." Maybe you will find a more educated fanboy who will ramble off a different chorus of buzzwords like "more integrated experience" or "richer multimedia" but when you pressure them they have no clue what any of that means. If you're going to argue that something is better at least no why. I have to deal with a co-worker who's a fanboy like that. Now I have to deal with this in my personal life too?

I don't think they're really interested in my opinion on any of this one way or the other. I really don't. If they were, they'd have asked for it before they did anything. I do know that I'm going to be expected to support this system and if I don't or can't they'll be disappointed in me. I've tried to learn Mac in the past. I don't get it. I could run it virtually on top of Windows I could maybe play with it and try to figure it out, but that's not an option. I'm not keen at all about an unfamiliar system being forced on everyone with no good reason for it.
 
A.Nonymous said:
I think having to deal with even more Apple lemmings and being pressured to become an Apple lemming myself is the crux of it. I don't know how Apple has done it. They did not create a product that is appreciably better than anything else on the market. I am sure there are some things that Macs excel at over PCs. I am equally sure that there are things that PCs excel at over Macs. Yet Apple has some how convinced their lemming followers that Macs are better at everything without even giving them any reasons why.
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And yet, I own some Macs. Am I a lemming or are you possibly missing something?


I don't think they're really interested in my opinion on any of this one way or the other.
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What do you expect?

Why would they be interested in the opinion of someone whose going-in position is not only have no respect for their opinion, but someone who is judging them as lemmings because of their opinion?

That is, quite plainly, you conducting an ad hominem attack - and I think you don't see that yet.

Remember the saying from the old guys: when you point your finger, three point back at you. ;)

PS - It's just a computer with a windowing system - you'll spend more time learning any specialized operating system.

The thing to do is to be there when it comes out of the box - insist on being the first operator.

There's a comprehensive set-up wizard that bore you out of your skull, but you'll understand your going-in config, and that's what you need as a new Mac user.

See also - Apple - Switch 101: From Windows Explorer to Mac Finder

Apple - Learn you way around a Mac

Apple - How Mac works with PCs
 
i sort of skimmed over all this debating....
here is just another small side of the debate....

but churches are recruiters... they fight for members...
to keep the current and add new... that is their life line!

so.. they all try to impress the masses (public). :P

make everything look impressive... to all the senses... sound and sight and feelings..

if you are looking to join a sports club.. one over another... you notice little things...

if a member feels that their club is great.. then they will talk to other about it.

apple has big public brandname and used to impress....

so...it is the real world!
 
EarlyMon said:
And yet, I own some Macs. Am I a lemming or are you possibly missing something?
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Do you have a reason for owning said Mac? If so, I have no issues. If you have one just because "It's better", then I would classify you as a lemming. I could give you a dozen reasons why I prefer Windows - more applications, overall familiarity with the system, easy to find help within the OS, etc.... If you've got reasons you like the Mac other than "It's better" I have no issues. Otherwise, IMO, you are a lemming.

What do you expect?

Why would they be interested in the opinion of someone whose going-in position is not only have no respect for their opinion, but someone who is judging them as lemmings because of their opinion?

That is, quite plainly, you conducting an ad hominem attack - and I think you don't see that yet.

Remember the saying from the old guys: when you point your finger, three point back at you. ;)
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I can respect a reasoned opinion. I find it difficult to respect one born out of "someone else said it was good but didn't give us any reasons why."
 
EarlyMon said:
And yet, I own some Macs. Am I a lemming or are you possibly missing something?
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You're not a lemming because you don't say Macs just do everything better without giving a reason. You've given some very good reasons why you use a Mac.

When he says lemming I think he's referring to the type of people who insist that Apple computers are incapable of getting a virus, for example. I know a couple people like that.
 
Well just sit back and wait and see if it blows up in their face or they may like it. I hate to say it but your acting kinda childish over this. I agree its a waste of money but I must say I have been curious about the imacs and been thinking about picking up an older one to see what the hype is all about.

I know there are fan boys out there but dont blame apple as they just put a product out. sure they advertise it as the better than the pc but thats the name of the game. No different than coke vs pepsi, or GM vs Ford. Its the die hard fans that goes overboard as its the best ever. I have seen nascar fans that says they will only drive a certain brand of car. As thats what their favorite driver dives on the track.

Its called brand loyalty and no apple wasnt the first to do it. Its been around for ages and it will not stop anytime soon.

In the end its not your money but the churches and the members of your church gives their money to the church to do with as they see fit. I would say with that much money looking to be spent. I think the members should vote on if this apple system should be bought or not.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Do you have a reason for owning said Mac? If so, I have no issues. If you have one just because "It's better", then I would classify you as a lemming. I could give you a dozen reasons why I prefer Windows - more applications, overall familiarity with the system, easy to find help within the OS, etc.... If you've got reasons you like the Mac other than "It's better" I have no issues. Otherwise, IMO, you are a lemming.
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You've just called someone who helped Bill &co fix a logic problem in Microsoft BASIC they couldn't solve when they were a startup in Albuquerque and who has done kernel dev for Mach, BSD and Linux a potential lemming.

And that just proved that you're not seeing your fail in your approach to people, so I'll try again.

So - if I say my Macs are just better, I _am_ a lemming.

But - if I say my Macs are just better because I have a _reason_ then I'm not a lemming.

And isn't a true, a priori (ahead of time), that if you disapprove of my _reason_ then I'd still be a lemming? Tell the truth, because I've had this conversation before.


I can respect a reasoned opinion. I find it difficult to respect one born out of "someone else said it was good but didn't give us any reasons why."
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Fail.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and to respect that, you must respect opinions. You don't get to grade them. You get to agree or disagree with them. Anything else is you setting yourself up as better while you pass judgment.

The goal SOMETIMES of each when two parties have conflicting opinions is to change the other person's mind. When that happens, you get to judge the analysis leading to the opinion - not the other person.

The planet is full of intuitive people who make excellent decisions without being analytical.

You clearly set conditions on accepting opinions - by your own words, you want them to be reasoned. Only analytical people have reasoned opinions.

Whether you realize it or not, you just said that analytical people are superior to intuitive people.

Welcome to America, my friend - all people are created equal.

And I'll tell what many analytical types never get in their entire lives - when they act high and mighty to an intuitive type, hide that from themselves, and ask the intuitive why they choose something, the intuitive types have had a stock, standard answer because they know the analytic isn't there to listen, they're there to argue, and I've seen them use it since long before Macs came along.

Here is the answer they've given under those conditions since before you were born.

Because it's better.

~~~~

You said you were frustrated learning Macs - see the PS in my previous post.

~~~~

You keep saying how you know Macs are inferior - the following is a link to my discussion on Macs and what they offer with PSkeptic and Snow_Fox.

You are welcome to go there to learn what don't know and unlearn what you think you know.

If you go there, and come back and say fine, EarlyMon you have good reasons but they are saying just because, then you will have learned nothing.

I caution you - I don't care to justify Macs to you - I'm simply giving you an opportunity to fill in some gaps on your knowledge - so, take it or leave it, I set no conditions.

http://androidforums.com/lounge/287...ne-users-vs-android-users-20.html#post2407389
 
Mac_Leod said:
You're not a lemming because you don't say Macs just do everything better without giving a reason. You've given some very good reasons why you use a Mac.
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I'm not a lemming because I'm a human being. I make my own choices.

Because I chose to post what you agree are my good reasons, I'm not a lemming.

But if I'd been busy elsewhere on the forums that day, and just said - eh, no reason, I just like them better - I would be a lemming.

And yet - it is not I that would have changed one iota under those two scenarios - just the perception others have of me would change.

Am I a chameleon or are those requiring conditions simply wrong to do so?

You decide. ;)

And - I've often said Macs don't get viruses - trojans, malware, etc, etc - but every "virus" I've been presented with has been something else.

Nothing's perfect.

And no one's perfect. ;) ;)
 
So - if I say my Macs are just better, I _am_ a lemming.

But - if I say my Macs are just better because I a _reason_ then I'm not a lemming.

And isn't a true, a priori (ahead of time), that if you disapprove of my _reason_ then I'd still be a lemming? Tell the truth, because I've had this conversation before.
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This made me dizzy.
eek5.gif
 
A.Nonymous said:
4. General frustration that my friends are turning into Apple lemmings. No clue what the differences are between Apple and anything else, but thoroughly convinced that Apple is better. They suddenly have a desire to snatch up anything and everything with an Apple logo on it, iPad included.

6. General amazement at how Apple has completely brainwashed the masses and general wonderment at why other tech companies have failed at doing the same.
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One of the biggest appeals to "macs" are the tight integration,ease-of-use, and incredible polish.

Take slideshows for examples. Any PCs can do it but Macs make it looks so much more professional for the normal user. Not everyone knows how to do video editing, after-effects special effects, and people don't have design sensibilities.

However, you give them an app that is very well designed, people are impressed. Making a slideshow on a mac is just a matter of picking your files and selecting a theme.
The transistions flow with whatever music you choose. It picks up the BPM,tempo and times the transition. The photos/slides automatically pauses until the next beat in the audio.
The typefaces, transitions are carefully picked up by professional UI designers.
The end user doesn't need to take a 2 semester course on After effects to get the same results. He doesn't have to be a UI designer that knows the nuances of Serif and San Serif fonts.
Apple already hired the UI designers to do that for you in their applications. It is all those little details that stand-out.

If you compare a regular slide-show done by a NON-techy-designer using a mac and one using a PC, the mac version will always look better. I've played with lots of windows applications but if you look at the pre-built themese and presets, nothing compares.
Apple hires hordes of UI designers. Just look at iDVD creation application. Each and every theme for a home DVD templates looks Hollywood Pro quality. Compare that with something HP/Dell or Roxio makes.
I'm being specific to non-designers. A professional designer can use whatever tool he wants on whatever platform and get the same results.
Like I said earlier, most people are not designers, artists, multimedia experts. Apple's themes, presets, designs really do stand out.

When you go to an Apple store and play with their 'iLife' apps, the polish is very apparent. People get sold on that eye-candy. Hence, they think it is better as a multimedia computer.

Even the smallest little thing you may not notice, makes a big difference. E.G. their selection of high quality Fonts and Typefaces used in their applications shows the attention to detail.

Again, Apple has better designers than most people.
If you look at the Photobook applications done by HP, Canon or Epson and compare them with Apple's iBook system, the Apple ones always look better designed.
 
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