htc email about 30 fps issue

[EarlyMon]

Well, HTC is ignoring the fact there is a problem, much like Apple and its antenna issue. Looks like there will NEVER be a HTC fix for this. If they ignore this, surely they will not add H.264.

Well - yeah, maybe they won't and maybe that's a good thing if they don't try to improve things all by themselves with their own h.264 fix...

The layer responsible in Android is called PacketVideo - and it has limitations.

http://www.packetvideo.com/resources/OpenCORE_brochure.pdf

There's a competitor called CoreCodec that's been working at getting their stuff to play with Android since Apr 2009. According to one of their team, they expect the architectural changes for 2.2 will allow them to bind in their stuff in a way that they feel is appropriate.

That's doesn't mean a codec change on 2.2 from day one.

As for codecs making it out to computers - two things: 1) playback: you already have H.264 playback on an EVO for 720p at 24 fps - movie rates, pretty good for any phone, and 2) record: the best your computer has built in, if it has one at all, is probably the same as the phone's - H.263 for video conferencing.

The recording is truly crippled by the MPEG4 Part 2 codec, as opposed to MPEG4 Part 10 (H.264).

However - the EVO sensor and lens aren't particularly crappy - the main problem is the limited codec.

My point in inserting that is that I've been spending a lot of time just looking at the video side of Android.

Kindly take a look at the pdf link above whether you're into software or not.

You'll see the codecs we have attached to the PacketVideo component.

My understanding is that those providing their own end-run to the Android to update codecs for the camera or other Android functions are:

• adding a lot of their overhead to the phone (and the Evo has enough of that, in my opinion)
• opening the door for their own update problems later (and no one wants that)

My suggestion is very galling, because it involves waiting for Froyo first, then screaming for H.264 - its modular architecture is said to relieve codec replacement troubles for developers by the CoreCodec guys, allowing for not only a software development kit, but also a native development kit - just a little more detail to what I'd mentioned above.

PS, a higher FPS increases quality of EVERYTHING, Scrolling looks better, flicking between screens look better, etc...

Yeah. Here's what we know:

• the Evo has a 30 fps cap
• it also is NOT as smooth as other phones in the functions you describe (no video of phone ops is required for me to believe that, coolguy949, I already know)

Pundits and self-styled experts want us to believe that they know the two are related. It's possible that they are, but if so, not for the reasons I've see (that basically boil down to "just because") and it's as possible to me that they're not related in that they flow from the same source.

A revealing example: Consider scrolling between your home space and the one to the left, for example. That's only two frames. You'd have to be flicking that bad boy faster than 1/30 second for that to be strictly an fps problem - yet, you and I have both seen that it's... sluggish? ... compared to other phones.

If I'm not terribly mistaken, the recent update to 1.47 includes a video throughput increase of a 2 Mbps difference - I read the package I installed for 1.47 is now at 8 Mbps for that, as opposed to 6 earlier. (I'll still need to track all of that down, so I've got no more numbers to toss out than that.)

I don't know about you, but I've gotten a night and day improvement with the update in many of those functions.

To rican408, call epic fail if you want, but I would remind you that the Droid X had no requirement to also be the first to market a 4G phone in the USA, and so while the Droid X is using a later generation process for its processor (and some argue it's that causing better graphics while I still suspect some 2.2 components have slipped in under the hood - time will tell on that one), they're sufficiently different development efforts, EVO and Droid X. I just might wait until the X is released into the wild before declaring FTW or epic fails, but that's me.

As for others that would like to take me to task for video rates - please, it's a no win game.

Some phones are getting way better performance with higher bit rates (if what little I've read is accurate - and pundit accuracy, now that's always another question! - but that's a pig in a poke.

Higher bit rates for everything just consume more resources and will also do so. If we double the data rates for video, we'll see big improvements on everything - but because there's no such thing as a free lunch, our recorded vids will also be correspondingly big files. I don't want to venture a guess on other system impacts.

I'm advocating waiting for an upgrade path that involves the software/hardware thinking smarter, not harder.

And - I don't claim to KNOW all of these things, but that's what it's all sorta looking like to me personally.

This much I'm sure of - the guys that built the Incredible and the Hero did not sit down one day and say, "Hey, I've got an idea - let's just frak with people."

I'm not saying the Evo is perfect, nor am I saying to stay off of HTC's back. I am saying that we should be VERY careful of exactly what we wish for when we do get on their backs, or we might get something that makes us happy today but turns out to be some bandaid that's tomorrow's nightmare.

If I knew where the problems were for a certain fact, I'd tell you. But so far, I'm seeing a lot of conclusions stemming from very little data on that.

 

[EarlyMon]

Most 3D games where it would matter can't achieve 30fps anyway, due to the Snapdragon having a weaker GPU.

Is that true? I'm sincerely asking.

My understanding was the Nexus One, for example, does AOK on that metric and it's using the same processor (the 8650 vs. 8250 Snapdragon difference is strictly for (carrier) radio support - ours is dual-radio capable, the 8250 is single radio (read: non-4G radios in both cases)) at the exact same speed.

 

[EarlyMon]

The problem is really HTC. <snip> ...HTC has never made a device that could be considered 'well designed'

So - you don't have an EVO? You're not considering an EVO? You got an EVO despite your belief that they've never made a well-designed product and now you're going to complain despite what anyone says because you're not immediately satisfied?

Or, you're just throwing rocks to make some kind of point that we'll not care about in future, such as, "neener, neener, neener I got an X"?

Which is it?

Man up and say.

 

[EarlyMon]

And in case u didn't see the video xda made more fps is attainable with software and does fix the issue.

XDA removed the cap. We don't know how. We don't know what was tied to it - one thing, two things ... 20 things.

Presuming some config option comes along for us from HTC: we won't know today if that will yield the same results for all functions as it did for XDA - we can't know what HTC will do compared to XDA.

Or - you're completely right and it's just that simple: there's an ON/OFF switch inside the software labelled FrakItUp. I'm being funny, not terribly sarcastic, because when I say you don't know or we don't know - that totally includes me, too.

 

[Dreamliner]

So - you don't have an EVO? You're not considering an EVO? You got an EVO despite your belief that they've never made a well-designed product and now you're going to complain despite what anyone says because you're not immediately satisfied?

Or, you're just throwing rocks to make some kind of point that we'll not care about in future, such as, "neener, neener, neener I got an X"?

Which is it?

Man up and say.

I've got an EVO because its the best thing on Sprint. It is FAR from the best it could be with simple software fixes, which is beyond frustrating.

 

[rican408]

XDA removed the cap. We don't know how. We don't know what was tied to it - one thing, two things ... 20 things.

Presuming some config option comes along for us from HTC: we won't know today if that will yield the same results for all functions as it did for XDA - we can't know what HTC will do compared to XDA.

Or - you're completely right and it's just that simple: there's an ON/OFF switch inside the software labelled FrakItUp. I'm being funny, not terribly sarcastic, because when I say you don't know or we don't know - that totally includes me, too.

U sound like u know what ur talking about. And i really dont know a lot when it comes to software. Perhaps there are some ill effects from increasing the fps. I'm hoping there is a way to fix it. To match or do better than my previously owned phones in terms of smoothness.

 

[EarlyMon]

Now if we were like Apple users, there complaints make it on the news so Apple needs to address them to the world. We onthe other get some generic emails just to satisfy you that they replied.

Yeah. No. Until recently, everyone was getting canned responses addressed to the wrong recipient claiming that the eye max'd out at 30 fps, so just shut up.

Google "htc evo fps" - see what you get.

Now, their story - while somewhat varied - is much more straightforward and includes claims of looking into it. Big difference in corporate behavior already.

But the insistence in many forums that if they don't fix this right now means curtains for the EVO and their business and yadda yadda yadda - a lot of posts look just like Apple users to me.

The Apple Product Cycle

 

[techs1200]

Really? Your Moto Droid would actually record video at over 30 fps?

Film - movies - are at 24 fps. Most video is at 30 fps (yep, 60 fps is possible, but that's been supported only for 480p and 720p so far - and of those two, 720p/60 you'll find for some broadcasts - as there are no 480p broadcasts, that's net stuff).

As far as other video quality goes - you'll want a higher codec than the one stock Android uses for cameras (MPEG4 Part 2).

So - right now, you can play back 720p/30 fps easily.

So - it's not everything that runs at that rate, it's some.

And - while you're calling bull on this hardware limitation, kindly remind me - did that phone running at half that cpu speed have an HDMI port and an output res capability of 1280x720p? As many radios built in as this beast?

No - and it's processor was at half speed. And that took less power, too.

I've no doubt that you're entitled to 60 fps or more on your phone.

And when it's officially uncapped, I'm hoping that they'll have the option for me to keep it throttled - because not all of us need those frame rates in a phone for gaming as much as we need longer battery time for videoconferencing - and that tends to cap at around 20 fps (although, I've seen it go as high as 30) - on desktop applications.

And FWIW, did I not read that on this update, they've upped the throughput limit from 6 Mbps to 8 Mbps?

Those of us that can keep our shirts on aren't feeling as ripped off as others.

Stop defending HTC you troll. How can you sit there with a straight face and defend the input lag present in ALL apps which is DIRECTLY related to the 30fps cap?

Pathetic.

 

[Rob_A]

I still don't see how fps affects flicking between screens and responsiveness when clicking icons. How is fps related to input lag??? Isn't that more of a software/cpu/memory thing?

If I goto my apps page and flick down fast, that thing flies.

 

[EarlyMon]

U sound like u know what ur talking about. And i really dont know a lot when it comes to software. Perhaps there are some ill effects from increasing the fps. I'm hoping there is a way to fix it. To match or do better than my previously owned phones in terms of smoothness.

Yeah, thanks, but I'm just making researched guesses, just like you. The only thing I'm certain of is that the wonderful guys at XDA know more and HTC's first reply to all this was baloney - so - I had to dig deeper, it's my nature.

Either way - if something can changed in software then that something can be given one or more config options for the user to control it. If there are ill effects, those can be controlled and prevented easily with config locks (note you can't edit your wifi list while wifi is off, for an example of what I mean by a config lock).

I'm like you - I didn't want to learn this stuff, I just want it to work. I don't want what you like to affect me or vice versa. That's the point, in my mind.

 

[muncher]

Stop defending HTC you troll. How can you sit there with a straight face and defend the input lag present in ALL apps which is DIRECTLY related to the 30fps cap?

Pathetic.

ugh... get your story straight man. fps cap has nothing to do with touch sensor lag lolol

 

[Dreamliner]

I still don't see how fps affects flicking between screens and responsiveness when clicking icons. How is fps related to input lag???

If I goto my apps page and flick down fast, that thing flies.

Simple, as you scroll, the EVO can only 'redraw' the motion 30 times per second. If the cap was removed, it could 'redraw' the motion say, 60 times per second. Thus, greatly increasing the 'liquidity' of the motion.

 

[Rob_A]

Simple, as you scroll, the EVO can only 'redraw' the motion 30 times per second. If the cap was removed, it could 'redraw' the motion say, 60 times per second. Thus, greatly increasing the 'liquidity' of the motion.

When I click an icon and it takes more that a split second to open, how is that related to Frames per second?

Also, I'm flicking my screens around and they look perfectly silky smooth and responsive to me. 60fps would make them even MORE silky smooth and responsive? lol

 

[EarlyMon]

Stop defending HTC you troll. How can you sit there with a straight face and defend the input lag present in ALL apps which is DIRECTLY related to the 30fps cap?

Pathetic.

rotflmao

If you were local, I'd let you buy me a beer - that was a good one!

Just for the record, though, I'm the director of r&d for the world's leading provider of reliability test solutions for the semiconductor industry, and my income does not rely in any way on cell phone manufacturers or the carriers who sell their product.

Chances are if you own anything with a chip in it that's reliable, regardless of who made it, it was tested and qualified for that with our stuff.

I know a few things about semiconductors and a few things about software but I don't know specifically what secrets went into any of the stuff in my Evo.

I just advocate careful thinking before complaining, so that the right complaints are registered. That's in my nature, too.

In my work, 90~99% of the time, I hate it when customers tell me how to fix things - because they're wrong. Tell me what you don't like, tell me what you need that our stuff does not do - our r&d staff will get that right every time.

But - that's just us.

 

[muncher]

earlymon, don't waste your time here with these asshats... skip over to xda think you'll find the crowd generally less ******ed

 

[EarlyMon]

Simple, as you scroll, the EVO can only 'redraw' the motion 30 times per second. If the cap was removed, it could 'redraw' the motion say, 60 times per second. Thus, greatly increasing the 'liquidity' of the motion.

lol

Motion lag on video is one thing, GUI lag is another thing.

From the Way of the Samurai: It is bad when two things become one.

 

[techs1200]

I still don't see how fps affects flicking between screens and responsiveness when clicking icons. How is fps related to input lag??? Isn't that more of a software/cpu/memory thing?

If I goto my apps page and flick down fast, that thing flies.

dude its simple: go to the settings app, slide your finger down quickly. it takes a half second for the display to move after your finger starts moving.

for reference, try scrolling on an ipad. AS SOON as you move your finger, the display scrolls. no lag.

 

[techs1200]

rotflmao

If you were local, I'd let you buy me a beer - that was a good one!

Just for the record, though, I'm the director of r&d for the world's leading provider of reliability test solutions for the semiconductor industry, and my income does not rely in way on cell phone manufacturers or the carriers who sell their product.

Chances are if you own anything with a chip in it that's reliable, regardless of who made it, it was tested and qualified for that with our stuff.

I know a few things about semiconductors and a few things about software but I don't know specifically what secrets went into any of the stuff in my Evo.

I just advocate careful thinking before complaining, so that the right complaints are registered. That's in my nature, too.

In my work, 90~99% of the time, I hate it when customers tell me how to fix things - because they're wrong. Tell me what you don't like, tell me what you need that our stuff does not do - our r&d staff will get that right every time.

But - that's just us.

hacked roms that remove the 30fps cap do NOT exhibit the scroll/touch input lag. that's enough to get engineering on board to fix it.

I don't mind the cap that much myself, even as a 3D graphics programmer. I am still amazed at how much 3d power is inside such a small device. What does irk me about the cap though, is the 2d touch input lag. That's unacceptable in my opinion.

Even more so, I am really disgusted with HTC's behavior and responses about this issue.

Its just as bad as Steve Jobs telling users to "not hold it that way".

I am keeping my evo, but I will NEVER buy an HTC phone again. This is my first HTC device and it's left a bad taste in my mouth. Customer service is just as important as hardware to me.

Its a real shame, because if this issue didnt exist I would have been the biggest HTC fan alive. The evo could have been the ultimate phone.

 

[EarlyMon]

earlymon, don't waste your time here with these asshats... skip over to xda think you'll find the crowd generally less ******ed

I'm lurking heavily there while I decide what I want to work on.

I'm also considering funding open source contributions to the source code base to Android from within my company. I've done a lot of that in the past for GNU stuff. We find it more rewarding to support open source that way than to throw money at the organizations - instead, we throw developers.

Engaging here is helping me to understand the Android open market of users - I'm newer to Android than most all of you (this is only my second phone) and so I'm still playing catch up.

 

[muncher]

hacked roms that remove the 30fps cap do NOT exhibit the scroll/touch input lag.

and did you look into why? i bet not.

 

[Dreamliner]

for reference, try scrolling on an ipad. AS SOON as you move your finger, the display scrolls. no lag.

xactly!

Nobody here can defend 'smoothness' when compared to the Apple GUI. Until the Android software/hardware catches up, I'll never be truly satisfied.

 

[Rob_A]

dude its simple: go to the settings app, slide your finger down quickly. it takes a half second for the display to move after your finger starts moving.

for reference, try scrolling on an ipad. AS SOON as you move your finger, the display scrolls. no lag.

I really don't see the "half second" you're talking about. When I do it, the screen scrolls down with my finger.

Also, IMO, I still don't think 30fps is related to GUI lags. It may "sound like it would" but it really only has to do with games/animations/videos.

 

[Dreamliner]

^"Lag" maybe not, that could be a hardware defect, but FPS ABSOLUTELY applies to the GUI and any motion on the phone IS animation.

 

[techs1200]

I really don't see the "half second" you're talking about. When I do it, the screen scrolls down with my finger.

Also, IMO, I still don't think 30fps is related to GUI lags. It may "sound like it would" but it really only has to do with games/animations/videos.

Since you claim your device does not have the issue, that somehow invalidates my claim that my device does have the issue? Ok...

"Nothing to see here, move along people"......right?

Watch this video and get some insight into the issue: the ball is not under his finger!

YouTube - HTC Evo Touch Sensor Lag

For even more insight, go install a hacked rom and watch the issue disappear!

How much more clear can it be?

 

[Rob_A]

^"Lag" maybe not, that could be a hardware defect, but FPS ABSOLUTELY applies to the GUI and any motion on the phone IS animation.

yes, I agree with Lag not being related to fps. That's what I was trying to say.