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htc email about 30 fps issue

Just thought I would post some rather interesting information....

HTC just left me a voicemail about my email and survey that I filled out. They want me to talk to them tomorrow about the issue I am having. They actually called 2 days ago, but I was too busy to post the info. They left another message today that strangely didn't download to my phone.

Anyway, I will post once I am finished speaking with them. Dunno who it is (the voicemail is very soft) but he is clearly American as he speaks English without an accent.

If I could, I would upload the voicemail to verify this...
 
yes, I agree with Lag not being related to fps. That's what I was trying to say. :D

what proof do you have that the touch screen polling is NOT synced with the displaying of graphics?

you have made the claim of them not being related, so you need to back up that claim.

there is hard evidence that the input polling IS synced with the graphics update of the screen. install a hacked rom and see for yourself.
 
For those unfamiliar with Froyo:

From the horse's mouth at Android.com

So - may we now start to clearly differentiate:
  • what part of the user experience you'll see improved simply by getting your next major upgrade, scheduled for real soon now
  • what part of video we care about for our phones where the HTC-imposed 30 fps cap is concerned
  • because - they're not necessarily the same at all

Signed,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Troll (still lmao at that one)
 
.

A revealing example: Consider scrolling between your home space and the one to the left, for example. That's only two frames. You'd have to be flicking that bad boy faster than 1/30 second for that to be strictly an fps problem - yet, you and I have both seen that it's... sluggish? ... compared to other phones.


Im sorry, perhaps its just me but I got real lost on this statement. Could you explain what you mean by this?
 
Its a real shame, because if this issue didnt exist I would have been the biggest HTC fan alive. The evo could have been the ultimate phone.

You know, and I mean this in the nicest way, there are those that would consider that entire point of view delusional.

Even with 30 fps cap removed, where is the:
  • multi-CPU processor at 1.5 or 2 or ... GHz?
  • built-in pico projector?
  • 1080p?
  • AMOLED screen with 24-bit color? QD-LED screen with 32-bit color?
  • better camera sensor?
  • better camera lens?
  • H.264 output for the camera?
  • Android 3.0?
  • ability to control bloatware and all else without rooting?
  • advanced accelerometer?
  • full display output via HDMI, not just video?
  • Bluetooth tethering?
  • Bluetooth contact syncing with all popular address books, PC or Macs?
  • non-lithium-ion battery technology? (how about lithium air as but one example?) 200 hours of use time in 4G?
  • camera used as gesture-sensor built-in?

You're either easy to please, with your harping on how the world will end with the 30 fps cap and how the EVO will be totally saved once it's removed - or you're the troll. :D :D

BTW - get me an EVO with my list above included, along with the sacred release of the 30 fps cap - get me that and give me a month, and I'll give you a new list of what that ultimate phone lacks.

If anyone creates an ultimate phone, somebody else will obsolesce it with an announcement within a month.

Welcome to cell phones. Perhaps you've heard of them.

I don't mind the cap that much myself, even as a 3D graphics programmer. I am still amazed at how much 3d power is inside such a small device. What does irk me about the cap though, is the 2d touch input lag. That's unacceptable in my opinion.

Wait. What? You've seen the code? You're not otherwise claiming - as a programmer - that you're calling for a specific source code change based on an observable without having seen the source code, are you?

You are not claiming without having seen source code that you know that removing the 30 fps OUTPUT cap will affect an INPUT processing response problem and not have any side effects whatsoever, are you?

Please, tell me that you aren't.
 
A revealing example: Consider scrolling between your home space and the one to the left, for example. That's only two frames. You'd have to be flicking that bad boy faster than 1/30 second for that to be strictly an fps problem - yet, you and I have both seen that it's... sluggish? ... compared to other phones.

Im sorry, perhaps its just me but I got real lost on this statement. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Hey - good question - I don't write as clearly as I think I do most of the time! ;)

I was trying to give an example that refutes 30 fps OUTPUT being a problem in the strictest sense of the word for the GUI itself. By "home space" I meant the screen you see from your home position - home screen - whatever - the one that came default with the big clock and weather widget.

The point I was making was, let's please focus on what we know our complaints are without mish-mashing them into a meta-complaint called the 30 fps cap. In other words, let's differentiate.

So far, I think I understand it to be:
  • GUI response
    • separate lag from when input is received to when output happens
    • separate out smoothness of the GUI when simply doing screen updates (my confusing example, above)
  • video response
  • camera response
 
You know, and I mean this in the nicest way, there are those that would consider that entire point of view delusional.

Even with 30 fps cap removed, where is the:
  • multi-CPU processor at 1.5 or 2 or ... GHz?
  • built-in pico projector?
  • 1080p?
  • AMOLED screen with 24-bit color? QD-LED screen with 32-bit color?
  • better camera sensor?
  • better camera lens?
  • H.264 output for the camera?
  • Android 3.0?
  • ability to control bloatware and all else without rooting?
  • advanced accelerometer?
  • full display output via HDMI, not just video?
  • Bluetooth tethering?
  • Bluetooth contact syncing with all popular address books, PC or Macs?
  • non-lithium-ion battery technology? (how about lithium air as but one example?) 200 hours of use time in 4G?
  • camera used as gesture-sensor built-in?

You're either easy to please, with your harping on how the world will end with the 30 fps cap and how the EVO will be totally saved once it's removed - or you're the troll. :D :D

BTW - get me an EVO with my list above included, along with the sacred release of the 30 fps cap - get me that and give me a month, and I'll give you a new list of what that ultimate phone lacks.

If anyone creates an ultimate phone, somebody else will obsolesce it with an announcement within a month.

Welcome to cell phones. Perhaps you've heard of them.



Wait. What? You've seen the code? You're not otherwise claiming - as a programmer - that you're calling for a specific source code change based on an observable without having seen the source code, are you?

You are not claiming without having seen source code that you know that removing the 30 fps OUTPUT cap will affect an INPUT processing response problem and not have any side effects whatsoever, are you?

Please, tell me that you aren't.

its not that I am easy to please, its that you've got a princess complex.

running a custom rom does not involve changing any hardware so you have no grounds to claim that it is a hardware issue.

go on and make another long winded post. you have no point as long as those youtube videos exist.
 
Apparently no one has seen this video. Here's proof that simply changing the refresh rate from 30 to 60 fps/hz has a massive difference on the device. Try it yourself by downloading MiltiTouch Visualizer 2. Then ask your friend to show you his N1 or Hero and see for yourself.

+1 on that great vid!

I'm flat-out dissatisfied with what I saw in both examples.

I saw a lag in both cases, just way worse on the one with cap.

If this is like any other GUI programming I'm familiar with, there's one thread [*] controlling input processing, another one updating the screen and then some mechanism for the two to share changes.

If that's the case, and I've no clue if it is, then that looks to me like they're updating information by one thread polling - that is, time sampling some state change to decide to update the screen.

Polling typically entails a LOT of timing synchronization, and as I live in a real-time response world for our company's solutions, we have a saying about polling: You can't get there from here.

That said, the other method is to be event-driven, and have the input event trigger the screen update.

I cannot imagine that they are not doing event-driven actions in the first place with any GUI - but - I haven't seen it all and don't pretend to know it all.

Even with event-driven processing, there's typically some cap on the input-processing thread so that it doesn't hog the system.

I've actually lived long enough to see programmers write time-processing routines that kept time so perfectly - that nothing else on the system would run. :D

Ultimately the method itself is not that important - so long as the job gets done.

The assertion so far has been that the 30 fps cap has broken synchronization with input.

I would say, from what I've seen in that great vid you posted, that it's already and always been broken, but the 30 fps cap exposed it for what it was.

This is one of the areas addressed by Froyo, but now I suspect (without any surprise) that they didn't tell the public the whole story of what's being fixed.

Well anyway - that's my opinion, and it's worth every penny you paid for it. ;)


[*] Think of a thread as a mini-program that runs in parallel with other threads. On the typical single-core CPUs, nothing really can run in parallel, so things get time-sliced.
 
30 FPS mode would be great for power management if we had the option. My VAIO laptop has the option to switch to 16 bit color and 40hz when on battery. The screen is noticeably choppier but it's 100% my choice to put it that way.

If anything, HTC should just give us the choice. I realize they'd have to create a power management app or PM settings module. If that's the case, just give us the source code and we'll be on our way. :P
 
its not that I am easy to please, its that you've got a princess complex.

You're really more of a comedian than a programmer, aren't you?!?!

running a custom rom does not involve changing any hardware so you have no grounds to claim that it is a hardware issue.

Really? I claimed that? I claimed or implied that software and hardware are somehow not mutually exclusive? Gee, what was I thinking?

go on and make another long winded post. you have no point as long as those youtube videos exist.

Pretty telling response to the question that you know for a fact that you just lift the 30 fps cap and you know there are no ill side effects to doing simply that - all without ever looking at source code, while you claim the mantle of programmer authority.

How's that for short and sweet?

SWAK,
The Princess! (and thanks for making coffee come out my nose!)
 
How is it a 2.1 issue, since Desire, Inc and N1 do not have the cap? Seems it is a driver issue done intentionally. HTC got caught and now are in damage control mode. At least they are now looking at correcting the cap.

"Beer", it's what's for dinner.
 
On XDA the devs touched on that topic and said moving to Froyo would not fix the issue. This is something in the firmware itself. Unless HTC corrects it in the firmware and rolls it out with Froyo all at once.
 
I would say if you are using the device for professional broadcasts, that you might be better served by investing in something other than a camera on a cell phone...

My .02

Who said anything about professional? I just want my videos to be clear when their sent. Is that too much to ask?

The problem is there have been so many EVO's sold already and we are such a small handfull in the mix. If we all complained we are such a small percentage of EVO owners in the grand scheme of things that HTC really doesn't care about the geeks who actually know about the 30fps cap or what that even means.

Now if we were like Apple users, there complaints make it on the news so Apple needs to address them to the world. We onthe other get some generic emails just to satisfy you that they replied.

This is why we get the major portals involved. You have to look at it from Sprints perspective. This is the media age, you have to realize that a huge fuss can be made when there are 100 videos on youtube describing the problem. Getting portals like engadget involved will tarnish Sprint/HTC reputation among their peers who won't hesitate to make a spectacle of it for a commercial.

We do have some power here, even in small numbers. This is their reputation on the line. Their next smart phone (Epic) isn't due out until Nov, so we need to make a ruckus now to get all of our issues corrected before they move on to supporting the next big thing.
 
How is it a 2.1 issue, since Desire, Inc and N1 do not have the cap? Seems it is a driver issue done intentionally. HTC got caught and now are in damage control mode. At least they are now looking at correcting the cap.

"Beer", it's what's for dinner.

I'm not saying it isn't strictly an HTC EVO problem - it's obviously that.

I am saying that we don't know what they did, or what else they did, just by having one thing addressed in that kernel mod.

I am also saying that it's more reasonable to expect the fix to come as part of 2.2 - not because of 2.2 - as a part of it - because all of the device-dependent stuff is necessarily addressed in any major revision.

And this isn't a PC, it's an embedded real-time OS, so things are rarely as simple as we want them to be.

Even I talk and conjecture about this being part of power management - BUT - here's all we know:

1. They had a deadline to get the EVO out.

2. They put this cap in to fix or cover up something in the rush to integrate all of the new features in this phone. There's a few firsts here, yes?

3. It seems perfectly reasonable to expect a fix - I include myself.

The part I object to is the name calling and the charges of malfeasance and idiocy on HTC's part, along with everyone who has not fielded a real-time OS with a lot of new firsts trying to tell me how everything's just so easy.

I'm more liable to read all of HTC's newly changed responses like this:
  • We knew what were breaking when we did that.
  • We are covering up another problem with that breakage - not deflecting attention from whatever it is - covering it up (maybe some race condition or something - who knows?).
  • We already know in the general sense that we can fix it.
  • We already know how long it's going to take in general terms.
  • Not today, soon, we're "investigating" it.
  • What else do you want us to say when the competition - who has the luxury of getting to market later with fewer requirements on their device - is all ready to spank us?

The EVO's been publicly available less than 4 weeks - 27 days.

I've been enjoying mine for 24 of them, despite the world ending with:
  • battery performance
  • 30 fps cap
  • something screwy with wifi signal strength (not so sure that's limited to just the status bar display but that's another one of my opinions)

Anyone having problems with dust under the display, glass lifting, grounding issues, screen vibrancy/wash-out issues or that sort of thing, I'd advise to seek immediate warranty relief.

For the rest of that list, I stick by what I wrote in my initial post in this thread: for those of us can keep their shirts on, this isn't that big a deal.

If you disagree, fine, take your business to another bleeding edge device and see what early delivery problems those may have. Myself, I don't know how we'll know that without having to wait for actual release into the wild of the Droid X, the Epic 4G, the.....

But if you think the next guy won't cut corners to meet a deadline, I've got a bridge that you might be interested in.

That's all I was trying to say.
 
Getting portals like engadget involved will tarnish Sprint/HTC reputation among their peers who won't hesitate to make a spectacle of it for a commercial.

I think I recall mentioning earlier that you'll find a lot just by googling for "htc evo fps" - engadget's already skewering it.

I think you missed a memo somewhere. ;)
 
Ok, so I missed the call from HTC due to being in a security meeting. Does anyone know if it is possible to copy the voicemail file to the PC and upload it somewhere? Got a great audio of an HTC rep speaking about the 30FPS issue.

He states that it is a hardware limitation, but that it 'could possibly' be changed via software though he cannot speculate. The number came through as 000-000-0000 so no real callback ability.

*sigh* I knew that they would call me at the only time during the day I didn't dare answer the phone.
 
I got a call back today from Sprint after emailing Dan@sprint. The lady was extremely nice and she said they were so sorry I am not happy with my device and that these issues exist. To make a long story short, she actually told me I should return the device to Radio Shack and wait it out. She said they are working hard to try and get HTC to address the 30 FPS and QC issues. She also asked for my help in emailing HTC through their contact for on htc.com to bring more attention to the issue and see if it helps in getting them to resolve it faster. According to her, waiting it out would be wise because she thinks all this may be resolved later on. It's better than getting stuck with this device.

So, I think we should keep emailing about the 30 FPS issue through HTC's website. Also email dan@sprint.com and CC sprintcares@sprint.com to make sure we're letting them know we are not happy. I am going to RS tomorrow to return the phone. She told me my account will revert to whatever I had before buying the Evo (I upgraded).
 
I got a call back today from Sprint after emailing Dan@sprint. The lady was extremely nice and she said they were so sorry I am not happy with my device and that these issues exist. To make a long story short, she actually told me I should return the device to Radio Shack and wait it out. She said they are working hard to try and get HTC to address the 30 FPS and QC issues. She also asked for my help in emailing HTC through their contact for on htc.com to bring more attention to the issue and see if it helps in getting them to resolve it faster. According to her, waiting it out would be wise because she thinks all this may be resolved later on. It's better than getting stuck with this device.
upgraded).

Well it does sound like they are addressing the issues from your email and others. But I wonder how long one will have to "wait it out"? I am a new sprint user and I don't want to wait it out and have my 30 days passed, then have to go though warranty/isurance channels.
 
I told her the same thing and she recommended I return mine to avoid that problem. But I might be a different case because I told her my headphone jack is having problems as well but I haven't been able to find a store with them in stock. After that is when she told me I should return it and switch back to my old phone and wait it out.
 
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