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Justice System Broken

SamuraiBigEd said:
""Niger Innis (black republican commentator) on Hannity a few moments ago made the most profound statement about Jackson, Sharpton, the Panthers and all black people who are protesting and raging about the Trayvon Martin case...

He says the black people who are throwing out all the racist rhetoric and protesting "are actually devaluing the lives of their own race.."
In other words, he said, "out of all the black teens murdered, (93% percent by black adults), they only get upset if that black life is taken by a white person..
In other words, the black life only has value worth raging about if his life is taken by a white man." -NIGER INNIS""

He's right, wheres the outrage the other 93% of the time? This is being used as a tool to curry power and we are feeding right into it.

The American public is being led around by the nose and told what they need to vote, believe, follow, get upset about, etc. all in the interest of government and corporate power. It is time we wake up and realize this is our country, time to take it back.
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Isn't his logic flawed about the 93% doesn't get upset when other blacks are murdered? It seems in those cases, the suspects are guilty and doesn't have any laws to allow you to kill similar to the one in FL. If it is proven self defense then they are not charged.

Blacks also around the nation, at least in major cities, where alot of unnecessary killings are happening do have protests and vigils againsts it. It just not as high profile as this case.

This is not a case about racism but about justice being served. It doesn't matter what color the victim or suspect is. I like how our society always decide what color one is that is of mix race. It depends on the situation, which race is chosen.
 
A.Nonymous said:
Even if you say that self-defense doesn't apply here because Zimmerman followed the kid, you still don't have enough to charge him with murder.
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"Dennis Baxley, a Republican state representative and co-author of the 2005 self-defense law, said Zimmerman negated his ability to claim immunity under the law by chasing Martin."

Which part of "negated his ability to claim immunity under the law..." don't you understand ?

If you claim an immunity under the law for killing and that immunity doesn't exist under Florida law, you will get an injection that is meant to end your life.
 
Our Judicial System is Flawed yes

Innocent people go to Jail everyday

Criminals are let go

People kill in Paranoia

People Kill in Self Defence

Who knows the difference? Who can prove the Difference? I don't know what happened that evening all I do know is that We as a Country will never grow as long as we never let go.

Racism exist on both sides of the fence. People will always judge the cover its a fact of life. Stereotypes are alive and well.

Will we ever rise above the need for Cops and Laws?
 
OutofDate1980 said:
You are living on a different planet then I am.
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Spend your childhood as the smallest kid in school. You get your ass kicked a lot. I speak from experience.

OutofDate1980 said:
"Dennis Baxley, a Republican state representative and co-author of the 2005 self-defense law, said Zimmerman negated his ability to claim immunity under the law by chasing Martin."

Which part of "negated his ability to claim immunity under the law..." don't you understand ?

If you claim an immunity under the law for killing and that immunity doesn't exist under Florida law, you will get an injection that is meant to end your life.
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Two things.

1. The guy is a state rep, not a lawyer.
2. Even if he's right, it doesn't mean you've got a murder charge. It means you've got a manslaughter charge at best and it'll get plea bargained down for sure.
 
saptech said:
Isn't his logic flawed about the 93% doesn't get upset when other blacks are murdered? It seems in those cases, the suspects are guilty and doesn't have any laws to allow you to kill similar to the one in FL. If it is proven self defense then they are not charged.

Blacks also around the nation, at least in major cities, where alot of unnecessary killings are happening do have protests and vigils againsts it. It just not as high profile as this case.

This is not a case about racism but about justice being served. It doesn't matter what color the victim or suspect is. I like how our society always decide what color one is that is of mix race. It depends on the situation, which race is chosen.
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93% of the murders involving black teens are perpetrated by black adults and while in some cases there may be vigils and the occasional protest most go by without notice, chalked up to "life in the hood". And anywhere in the U.S. if you kill someone in legitimate self defense you are not going to suffer consequences, not just Florida.

As I stated earlier, Zimmerman was directly responsible for the situation no matter whether there was an altercation or not so he should be tried. That said, concealed carry permit holders are held to a higher standard than the typical gun owner defending their home. In Texas I can be convicted of failure to render aid if it is found I was carrying at the scene of an incident that did not involve me and refused to do so. We are expected to be responsible and law abiding individuals but as with any other licensing system on the planet there are those who should not have made it through the system. Zimmerman is one of those individuals and his actions are being used as a rally cry for gun control morons all over the country as well as the race card being thrown down with undue force.

The political aspects of this are appalling, being an election year Obama, Jackson, Sharpton, the Black Panthers and others are all using this to push an agenda and get Obama re-elected. I find it in extremely bad taste that the Obama campaign is now selling Obama Hoodies. We need to call this for what it is, a media storm being sustained for the benefit of others, not a true cry for justice. And the justice that is being called for is "Old West Lynching" justice, with the people crying for it already convinced of guilt and not interested in the facts of the case. I have overheard many conversations where the statement was made "...he's guilty, they just need to fry his ass and get it over with..." or something very similar. This is the U.S. and guilty or not he still has a right to be tried by a jury of his peers.
 
A.Nonymous said:
...2. Even if he's right, it doesn't mean you've got a murder charge. It means you've got a manslaughter charge at best and it'll get plea bargained down for sure.
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No, Zimmerman can be charged with murder with intent if his story doesn't pan out.

Was it reasonable for Zimmerman to be following the kid ? Was the weather appropriate for a hoody ? Is there any physical evidence that an altercation took place prior to the shooting ?
 
OutofDate1980 said:
No, Zimmerman can be charged with murder with intent if his story doesn't pan out.

Was it reasonable for Zimmerman to be following the kid ? Was the weather appropriate for a hoody ? Is there any physical evidence that an altercation took place prior to the shooting ?
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How in the world are you going to prove intent? What's your argument? That Zimmerman is a racist and a bigot and killed Martin because he was black? I have no clue how you're going to make an argument to that end based on the evidence we've seen so far. Any decent defense attorney would have you for lunch if you tried to present that case. We've got several eyewitnesses who saw and/or heard some sort of altercation before the shooting. That much is clear. What happened isn't clear at all. If you want to press a first degree murder charge against this guy you better have a whole lot better evidence than what we've seen. From what we've seen you've got manslaughter at worst and like I said, that's likely to get plea bargained and the guy will walk on probation and might lose his concealed carry permit. That's it.
 
The really sad part here is that while we are all looking to see what happens next with this case. And we see the Political Chariots running up to demand "Justice" whats going on with the unemployment rate? the Housing market? Our Education system? We are so easily amused by what is clearly a local legal matter in the city which this situation happened. It's not a Political Calling so why are so many Politicians Jumping on board. The Answer is that none of them really give two craps about what happened they are there strictly for the votes. What we as a nation need to be looking at is not some other city's personal issues but issue's that affect the nation as a whole. Racism has been a part of Humanity ever since we could see a difference. As a Country we don't need more people jumping on a Racism wagon what we need are people who are willing to bring America back to the Fundamentals it was built on. We need to send a very clear message to our Politicians and that is simply if you are not going to do what it takes to make America a Leading economic force in this World then you are not needed. Instead of worrying about rather 1 child was killed over Racial barriers or not we need to think about the children we are leaving behind with the biggest deficit known to man. The harm we are doing them is much worse than the fate of this one kid.
 
argedion said:
The really sad part here is that while we are all looking to see what happens next with this case. And we see the Political Chariots running up to demand "Justice" whats going on with the unemployment rate? the Housing market? Our Education system? We are so easily amused by what is clearly a local legal matter in the city which this situation happened. It's not a Political Calling so why are so many Politicians Jumping on board. The Answer is that none of them really give two craps about what happened they are there strictly for the votes. What we as a nation need to be looking at is not some other city's personal issues but issue's that affect the nation as a whole. Racism has been a part of Humanity ever since we could see a difference. As a Country we don't need more people jumping on a Racism wagon what we need are people who are willing to bring America back to the Fundamentals it was built on. We need to send a very clear message to our Politicians and that is simply if you are not going to do what it takes to make America a Leading economic force in this World then you are not needed. Instead of worrying about rather 1 child was killed over Racial barriers or not we need to think about the children we are leaving behind with the biggest deficit known to man. The harm we are doing them is much worse than the fate of this one kid.
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This thread concerns the justice system. There other threads which address some of the issues you raised or you can just start a thread.
 
OutofDate1980 said:
Zimmerman was carrying a gun and following Martin. If immunity defense fails, that's all you need for intent.
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No, not at all. The guy has a concealed weapons permit. He's always (presumably) carrying a gun. This would especially be true while out on "patrol". Just because one is carrying a gun and following someone doesn't logically lead to they intended to kill that person.
 
OutofDate1980 said:
Zimmerman was carrying a gun and following Martin. If immunity defense fails, that's all you need for intent.
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This statement makes no sense at all. So since I carry a gun if I follow someone acting suspicious to see what they are up to and have to kill that person in self defense how is that intent to commit murder? I did not set out to kill that person, it was a responsive action to being attacked.

I have stated what I believe in this case but to say because you have a gun you have intent is way off base.
 
argedion said:
The really sad part here is that while we are all looking to see what happens next with this case. And we see the Political Chariots running up to demand "Justice" whats going on with the unemployment rate? the Housing market? Our Education system? We are so easily amused by what is clearly a local legal matter in the city which this situation happened. It's not a Political Calling so why are so many Politicians Jumping on board. The Answer is that none of them really give two craps about what happened they are there strictly for the votes. What we as a nation need to be looking at is not some other city's personal issues but issue's that affect the nation as a whole. Racism has been a part of Humanity ever since we could see a difference. As a Country we don't need more people jumping on a Racism wagon what we need are people who are willing to bring America back to the Fundamentals it was built on. We need to send a very clear message to our Politicians and that is simply if you are not going to do what it takes to make America a Leading economic force in this World then you are not needed. Instead of worrying about rather 1 child was killed over Racial barriers or not we need to think about the children we are leaving behind with the biggest deficit known to man. The harm we are doing them is much worse than the fate of this one kid.
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OutofDate1980 said:
This thread concerns the justice system. There other threads which address some of the issues you raised or you can just start a thread.
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His comment is a personal opinion on this exact subject and the fact that it is smoke and mirrors being used to distract the public from real issues and gain political favor. He is simply pointing out that this is less of a "broken justice system" issue and more of a media/political frenzy.
 
Arguing that Zimmerman intended to kill anyone (much less Martin) just because he was carrying a gun around is an extremely tenuous argument and one even a rookie defense attorney would shred with ease.
 
SamuraiBigEd said:
His comment is a personal opinion on this exact subject and the fact that it is smoke and mirrors being used to distract the public from real issues and gain political favor. He is simply pointing out that this is less of a "broken justice system" issue and more of a media/political frenzy.
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Understood, but I think this is a socially important case (you could argue the same about Casey Anthony, OJ, etc).

I guess my personal opinion on the matter is this guy NEEDS to go to trial. Have the respective attornies present their cases/evidence and be done with it. In Casey Anthony's case, it was a bit more evident what had happened. But, if the police don't care to investigate this case, than yeah, the thread title speaks the truth.
 
dreadnatty08 said:
Understood, but I think this is a socially important case (you could argue the same about Casey Anthony, OJ, etc).

I guess my personal opinion on the matter is this guy NEEDS to go to trial. Have the respective attornies present their cases/evidence and be done with it. In Casey Anthony's case, it was a bit more evident what had happened. But, if the police don't care to investigate this case, than yeah, the thread title speaks the truth.
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I don't know that he needs to go to trial. As I said, I don't know that you can build any sort of case against him based on the evidence. Even if you're going to charge him with manslaughter because he followed the guy and you're going to argue he instigated the incident by following that's kind of tenuous. His defense attorney will argue that he stopped following Martin or lost him (thus de-escalating the situation) and that Martin jumped him (and Martin may be lying through his teeth here, but we have no evidence to prove it) and tried to take his gun therefore Zimmerman shot him. The defense is going to argue that there were a lot of extenuating circumstances here and it's not cut and dried manslaughter. Zimmerman acted to defend himself and was not, at the time, instigating the incident. Put that in front of a jury and it's a wobbler IMO. The last thing the state wants is a jury acquitting this guy. That is a potential riot starter even if it is the right decision. The other outcome is they convict Zimmerman of manslaughter. With no prior convictions for anything like this, he'll likely get probation. I'm not sure the state wants that either. It may be the best thing to not charge him at all and let this blow over in a few weeks. That might be the correct decision anyway given the unclear evidence here.
 
I guess an enhanced video has now leaked that clearly shows an injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. That would lead credence to his story that Martin attacked him or at the very least would prove that some sort of altercation happened.

Also, the police investigator apparently originally recommended that manslaughter charges be filed (who else on here said that), but the DA declined saying that there wasn't sufficient evidence to get a conviction (who else on here said that too). It is looking like Zimmerman's story may have an element of truth or two too it.
 
Trayvon Martin case: Experts say desperate cries for help were not from George Zimmerman | Mail Online

"A forensic expert has said screams heard on a 911 call moments before Trayvon Martin was killed were not those of George Zimmerman.

Zimmerman, 28, claims he shot the teenager in self defence after he was attacked and and told police he was the one who could be heard crying out in the recording.

However, leading voice identification expert Tom Owen has said he is certain the screams do not belong to Zimmerman after using specialised biometric software to compare the voices."
 
I think a lot of the public outcry could have been avoided if they didn't just take Zimmerman's word for it and dismissed him. It's as if he had just killed someone's pet on accident. The outrage isn't with Zimmerman's actions at this point (that's for a jury to decide), but it's with the actions of the police and the DA that seemed indifferent to what happened. I've seen some people go to jail for tying their dogs out near a tree in the middle of summer. The police and DA's inaction is what people should be questioning at this point. Hopefully Zimmerman will have a day in court and all the evidence will come forward.


I keep asking myself if the media had not brought this event to light and Zimmerman was able to just walk away, would justice be served?
 
OutofDate1980 said:
Trayvon Martin case: Experts say desperate cries for help were not from George Zimmerman | Mail Online

"A forensic expert has said screams heard on a 911 call moments before Trayvon Martin was killed were not those of George Zimmerman.

Zimmerman, 28, claims he shot the teenager in self defence after he was attacked and and told police he was the one who could be heard crying out in the recording.

However, leading voice identification expert Tom Owen has said he is certain the screams do not belong to Zimmerman after using specialised biometric software to compare the voices."
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Did you read the article before you posted it? That link is extremely misleading (the site's fault, not yours). If you read the article, it clearly states the guy found a 48% match. It also says that he needs a 90% match to be positive. So he can't be positive either way. Given the quality of cell phone calls and the fact that the shouts were not right next to the phone speaker and off the distance, the claims Martin makes are still believable.

OutofDate1980 said:
An analysis of the possible murder charges against George Zimmerman - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com

"Zimmerman was following Martin before the shooting, and arguably made a
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