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LOL $15 Min wage!!!

You've made fair points on numbers of people who are/are not on min wage. I'll give you that. Another question I ask just in general is this and it's pretty blunt: what do we do about low wages and those who earn them? Allow them to continue to live in poverty or have some other type of program to lift them out of poverty? Not asking this in a smarta$$ way but just in general to see your thoughts. Even if there aren't tons making min wage there still ARE those who are living in near poverty conditions due to $7/$8 an hr work and they're trapped in it.
 
thats sort of a loaded question............ there are a million different things that would need to be done to lift people out of "poverty" (a fancy word for refuses to live within their means)....... the very last of which is raising minimum wage

first you must accept the fact that there will never be a time when there isnt someone at the bottom..... its not possible in any society.... nor should it be
 
There is a difference between living within their means and being in poverty, in some situations it is possible those on minimum wage cannot afford basic life needs such as housing, food and water! You cannot expect a working person to live without electricity either surely? After all, there is demand for these jobs to be done by someone, which means they need to be filled.... it should be a living wage, not a minimum wage :-)
 
I fully agree with sntaylor. Copestag, people need to afford basic necessities like housing, electricity and water etc. Do your basic math on trying to live on $7-8/hr. Plan out a budget for just basic needs (not wants) each month and you'll find that those on min wage cannot afford/can barely afford rent and food. Forget car payments to for a car to get to work or even a buss pass in some cases. People suffer. Sntaylor said it well: a LIVING wage is what is needed.
 
and once again....... while Im sure there are a handful of people out there in the situation youre describing (after all the Clintons were "dirt poor" in 2001)..... its not necessary to cripple small businesses to fix

as I have already shown you most on min wage are teenagers living with their parents... or single college students... are you suggesting their parents are unemployed in this booming economy and the kids are supporting them?

these are kids doing what kids have done for longer than you and I have been on the planet....... they are kids working part time jobs for spending money.... last I checked the latest pair of cool shoes wasnt the equivalent of rent and groceries

the white whale you keep talking about just isnt there..... its a minnow

what you have is a solution in search of a problem
 
the numbers are straight from teh bureau of labor statistics

and while over there they pay a higher minimum wage and apparently everyone and their brother makes minimum wage

over here a very small number VERY small number earn minimum wage and the overwhelming majority of those are young single kids working part time and living at home

its relegated mainly to burger flippers and the like...... low education/low skill/ low effort/etc type jobs

if youre in high school and your job is to put mustard on the bun for the burgers then $7.25 is a lot higher than you should be getting paid.... count your blessings
 
Sntaylor cheers to you for being from the UK. I've been to London on my way to visit family in Ireland when I was a kid and enjoyed the welcome at Heathrow :) cost of living is a bit high there but I enjoyed it. I was there in '99
As for cope stag I found the following illustration
331e41d687ab38311b35b4c0db92a481.jpg
 
jackroo Im glad you found a cartoon talking point.... its barely legible... resizing it might help spread some misinformation

however the little bit that I can make out is exactly that... misinformation

as I mentioned the bureau of labor statistics (the government entity tasked with compiling this information... the only people on the planet who has this information to compile) has all the information you need to inform yourself..... its not a guessing game or open for interpretation........ they can tell you exact number of people, what origin they are, their birthdate, how many times if ever a person has been married, how many kids they have (even without marriage), where they live and who with, what religion they are, we could go on and on........ they have all that information and more available for you to read........ you dont need cartoons to help..... the facts are there

youre entitled to your own opinion....... you are not entitled to your own set of facts
 
Sorry for the blurred "cartoon". I found it, did some research in it and then posted. I'm using the tapa talk app so I had no idea how to resize it. Sorry about that. However, by you claiming that I am spreading misinformation is not accurate and it weakens this thread. It is one thing to disagree with statistics I found, but it's quite another to label me a liar. As this thread is now about calling people liars I politely ask Brian706 to close this thread please. Thank you.
 
Heated debates are expected (and welcome) here in the P&CA forum as mentioned in the sticky HERE; as long as you guys are attacking the issues and not eachother.

I'm not placing any blame here, but let's make sure the thread stays on the appropriate path so it can remain open for discussion. Good? Thanks!!
 
I will tell you Exactly How that cartoon is misleading information.

It is addressing the "1 in 4 workers" Affected by raising the minimum wage. It Would Like you to Assume (and we know what happens Then don't we...:rolleyes:) that those people Affected Are ON the minimum wage. That is chocolate frosted crapola.

Where Some Truth enters the cartoon is that many union contracts are Directly Tied to the minimum wage. An increase in the MW gets the union worker on contract an Automatic similar scale increase.

So, the FACTUAL statement of that cartoon is that a good many of "those 1 in 4 workers affected by an increase in the minimum wage" are union workers Already Earning MANY multiple times more than that minimum wage.

You would have to be a fool to believe that 25% of the workers in the U.S. are actually Making Just the minimum wage. However, add in the number of union workers who's contracts are Directly Tied to the MW and you very likely DO hit that 1 in 4 figure.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl
 
There may be relatively few making the exact minimum wage, but many more make just above minimum and they usually get a raise when the minimum wage goes up also. That argument is nothing but an obvious attempt at misdirection.

Every time the discussion about raising the mw comes up, the same tired scare tactics come out. "It will destroy small business", "unemployment and inflation will skyrocket". It never happens. Sure, $15 is a bit ridiculous, but that's not going to happen on a federal level anyway. The truth is these people oppose the fact that there is a minimum wage at all.
 
Gmash said:
The truth is these people oppose the fact that there is a minimum wage at all.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

You would have to be a pretty irrational person IMO to think that Most Employers are going to Always do what is Best for their employees even if that means the employer making Less money themselves.

I consider myself a Libertarian but even I agree there Should Be a minimum wage. Just like I agree with child labor laws (Yeah YOU! Farmers!) I think you'd almost have to be "Libertarian" to the point of not wanting Any Laws to think that No Minimum Wage At All was a good idea. There really aren't That many people That whackadoodled.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl
 
Gmash said:
but many more make just above minimum and they usually get a raise when the minimum wage goes up also.
Click to expand...

this is one of my favorite talking points

the reason of course is it shoots down any argument against raising minimum wage destroying small business

so a small restaurant that barely sqeaks out a profit (restaurants have miniscule margins) has 10 employees

lets call them A B C D Etc
A makes $7.25 min wage
B makes $7.50
C makes $7.75
D makes $8.00
Etc

by raising A ... and according to your argument by proxy raising B.... which would then mean raising C and D and Etc

lets play some numbers games for a moment and take a look at what your "they usually get a raise" means to the company... lets assume theres a healthy mix of part time and full time at this 10 employee small business...... so on average 30 hrs/wk each = 1560 hrs/yr each = 15600 payroll hours

if you make minimum wage $15 that translates to an extra $120,900 out of this company for payroll

math is a real bitch isnt it?

now the company is not only not making a profit...... they are taking out loans to make payroll....... or raising prices .... or adding surcharges to make ends meet (as in the example whined about in a previous posting)

of course I suppose you just believe A and B perhaps even C gets the increase....... D through infinity remain flat

the problem with this is D has worked here 10 years and actually worked to earn his pay raises...... now you propose to make B and C (who havent quite earned that amount yet) his equal just to make things 'fair'?

theres no such thing as something for nothing

either get off the lazy arse and earn more than minimum wage........ or accept failure and live off minimum wage.... its a pretty easy concept really
 
it's funny that people against raising the minimum wage fail to point out minimum wage has only increased since it was instituted in the 1930s. Somehow all these "small businesses" managed to be created and prosper in the interim 70+ years since the inception of a federal minimum wage, but now will all of a sudden fall apart if people got paid a penny more. I'm supposing minimum wage should never be increased again, and we have reached a magical plateau of earning. I'm sure the Cost Of Living Allowance should also be discontinued, or will you be whining about that when you reach retirement age?

also funnier, 21 states have higher than national minimum wage, but I guess they have no small business operations.
 
I must have missed a memo tonight...... you guys are hitting all the talking points

yes many states have higher than federal min wages..... those states also have higher costs of living in general

as for cola...... that practice is going by the wayside in many sectors.... govt excluded to be certain

and yes since 1938 the min wage has only increased...... by small portions over extended periods.... so lets take the average amount of increase over that time period and apply it to today

math is a real bitch isnt it?

you should be asking for a $0.10 increase in min wage

I would agree a 10 cent raise isnt going to kill any business... just like it hasnt over the last 76 years.... I could probably support that to stop the whining.... thats not really what youre asking for though is it?

we are still missing a couple of the more popular talking points.... next
 
out of ideas said:
it's funny that people against raising the minimum wage fail to point out minimum wage has only increased since it was instituted in the 1930s. Somehow all these "small businesses" managed to be created and prosper in the interim 70+ years since the inception of a federal minimum wage, but now will all of a sudden fall apart if people got paid a penny more. I'm supposing minimum wage should never be increased again, and we have reached a magical plateau of earning. I'm sure the Cost Of Living Allowance should also be discontinued, or will you be whining about that when you reach retirement age?

also funnier, 21 states have higher than national minimum wage, but I guess they have no small business operations.
Click to expand...


^^ excellent point :thumbup:
 
Speaking from the inside, I do work at McDonalds. And I do agree with many of you.

McDonalds is not meant to be a career, but it can be... Trust me it can be, and if you make your way high enough in the company, you can make as much as $30 / hour.

As for the CREW, like myself, this position is unrealistic to be making $15 / hour. Those on strike, I kinda laugh on them, because McDonalds is a company that doesn't care about their employees. They literally don't. Those on strike, get fired, and they can hire another bunch of high school kids looking for a job and making $8.25 / hour for a 16 year old aint bad. Since they are still living with parents who are paying everything for them, it gives them a little bit of spending money and responsibility. That's a good thing for them. Those people who have been working there 20 + years, either they never did anything good in school, or never cared about looking to challenge themselves and move up within the company.

To move up in the company, go to Hamburger university. It's silly, but it's a school for managers. (they don't teach you how to flip burgers, it's much more complex than that, they teach you food safety, management skills, business skills, customer satisfaction, it's actually pretty nice, and they give college credit)

$15, it's unrealistic. But then again, you have to ask yourself, who is debating that? Who was as Oak Brook on strike outside McDonalds HQ? Why do they think that they can get that much? They certainly aren't educated. Our economy can't afford to pay everybody at that level position while there are much higher level positions still making less than that...


My dad works building trucks. Building trucks. That takes some knowledge, making like $13 / hour. My brother is a manager at the movie theaters. Making $11 / hour, manager! Certainly higher than taking orders like myself. My sister is a... Well I don't know exactly what she does to be honest. Like food safety, or health inspector, or water analyzer for the city of Chicago or something.

There are higher positions, and if McDonalds sets the standards for an entry level position like this at $15 / hour, it will screw up a lot of things.

I hope they don't becaues our economy is already screwed enough.
 
Just because someone writes something down doesn't exactly make it true. Quoting the bureau of labor statistics is like quoting scripture then insisting that what is written is not only right, but is righteous.

I visited a living wage web site that listed food cost as being pretty much the same no matter where you lived. I did my own number crunching which was a fairly simple process, divide their figure for what I should be spending on food a month by the number of days in a month and discovered that even where I live I would be considered a glutton if I were to eat more than once a day. One trip to fast food restaurant not only would come close to wiping out my daily budget, but with current government butting in telling them that the food can not be of the type that might make me fat, because such foods are unhealthy, I am not even going be close to what that same government says is a healthy caloric intake.

What I am getting at is that it would be foolish for me to think that just because what they have written down is said to be official, that it is also accurate.

Real life observation tends to be more accurate. Real life doesn't take place in a government, business controlled lab. My observations are that when a layman complains that life is not only hard, but nearly impossible, he is told to suck it up, and quiet wining. Yet, when a business complains that life is not only hard, but is nearly impossible they are lavished with sympathy, and understanding.

This I don't understand, well I can understand it when the sympathy comes from another business. It is kind of like calming down your prey just before you eat them. What I don't understand is when the sympathy comes from people who barely survive themselves. They seem to be proud of the fact that they are survivers, and seem to think that this makes them better than the people next door who would dare to ask that life be just a little bit easier.

You can hear it in their stories they tell you how hard it was for them and their family's, yet they manage to survive. They associate themselves with those they consider to be winners by flowering businesses with compliments and sympathy, and are repaid with pats on the back. They are satisfied that they have done their duty to society, then glare at their neighbor as if the neighbor is to blame for everything that makes life difficult.

Stagnation, is worse for the economy than trying to boost it by improving a persons life. The economy fell, not because those in poverty, who are just surviving insisted on living beyond their means, but because those who have too much insisted on having more, and didn't care which laws they had to break, or have written in order to allow them to have more.

When I am at work I can assure you that the man, or woman standing beside me had little to do with the economic collapse other than to be it's victim.

One thing I have learned, accepting life the way it is doesn't make it any better than complaining about it does. Actually, doing something like trying to improve minimum wage is at least better than doing nothing. The truth is that raising minimum wage to the amounts that they generally talk about is not going to benefit my paycheck. Now raise it to fifteen dollars then I'll be able to eat three times a day, that will make me happy. Me complaining about raising minimum wage is the same as if I slapped the food out of my neighbors hand for daring to want to eat. It would be just plain stupidity on my part.
 
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