Wrong. Criminal charges can be pursued in extreme cases.
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Men's Rights in Terms of Child Support and Abortion
- Thread starter lordofthereef
- Start date
Wrong. Criminal charges can be pursued in extreme cases.
lordofthereef
Android Expert
Wait, what? The guy is broke and he is going to have criminal charges against him? under what grounds?
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
You're wrong about that. I used to work with a woman who had to pay court ordered child support to a guy who refused to let her see her kid. They were in the middle of a huge custody battle over it.
lordofthereef
Android Expert
I am not referring to a woman never having to pay for child support. I am referring to a woman being able to "opt out" by giving the kid up for adoption at/near birth. I was unclear. Certainly in a custody battle things are different, but that is after they have been with the kid for some time.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Fair enough. What then is the solution? You can't force a woman to have a kid. You can't force a woman to have an abortion either. Neither of those options are palatable.
Here's some info from a California attorney's website:
Los Angeles Child Support Arrears Attorney | Valencia Criminal Charges Lawyer | California Divorce Attorney
I am going to ignore the huge psychological issue is you are statement, I doubt any person that has NOT had another life growing inside of them for 9 months could begin to talk about the emotional and psychological attachment they would have to the child. I simply don't think it is possible for anyone to set themselves in the mind frame of that person, until they are in that position.
Only focusing on the monetary problems of what you said.
By default it is in the mans best interest NEVER to commit to the to anything. The man can romance the woman in anyway possible, making it possible for him to say or do anything to achieve his goal of sex. If the woman goes along and gets pregnant, the man can just jump out, claim no responsibility what so every for the child, and go on to the next woman that catches his eye.
From that point, the woman that honestly thought that guy she was with really was going to be around for the long term HAS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for another life. If she gets an abortion, it is MASSIVE PSYCHOLOGICAL AND SOCIAL TRAUMA. In most cases, she could get disowned by her family, get shunned by her community, and take on the responsibility of carry out the horrible task. The guy on the other hand has moved on and never looked back.
If the woman carries the child to term, there is massive psychological and social trauma. The male could be on his 3rd "abortion" by now. But the first woman still has to go through massive pain and emotional distress of carrying and child birth, the male does nothing but just simply walk away.
If the if she keeps the child, she own has a huge finical problem with not being able to get a equal paying job, being a single mother, and take on the burden of the child by herself. On the other hand the male that was 50% responsible for the child, could be on the 10 victim by now.
From a purely legal point of view, what you are saying is this; if you are male abandon the child and the woman the minute she gets pregnant, even if you plan on hanging around, it is legally better for you to dump them on a legal basis. It encourages not only a father of 5 just giving up and running away, but it also allows scammers to con women, with zero responsibility of their actions.
But ignoring all of that. Here is my problem. If the child lives, the child still needs x amount of money to survive. One parent is extremely unlikely to provide for that money by themselves. If the woman can not force the man to pay for 50% of this responsibility, then the child has to be provided for. It if goes into foster care, the tax payer, pays for that child. If it stays with the mother, welfare has to pay for that child. If the father steps in, the tax payer pay nothing or alot less then if the father can just run away.
Once the woman gets pregnant it is not as simple as saying, Nope dont want it.
Child supportis not abot risk of sex, or shared risk. It is about shared responsibility. Don't wanna be with your babies momma, fine. But, you can't just dissolve yourself from the responsabilities involved in having a child. The father can get custody (I did), then receive child support (albeit, a pathetic amount)......
That would be fine and dandy with me if the father also had shared rights in the decision on whether or not to abort the baby or put it up for adoption.
They are two totally seperate issues... In fact, it is 3 totally seperate issues. If a woman wants to put the baby up for adoption, the father can, very easily, retain custody. Concerning abortion, it is a womans right to do what she wants with her body. Should a man be able to force an abortion? In that case, should a woman be able to force a vasectomy? Now, I know you have stern anti-abortion views, but that has nothing to do with child support. Child support is there for the child.....
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Shared rights to what extent? As I said earlier, you can't force someone to have an abortion. You also can't force someone to carry the kid to term. Neither of those options are palatable to anyone.
I am sorry, but that is just crazy. That is like saying this. IF a guy has a cancer that will kill him, the woman can force the guy to keep the cancer? Or if the male abort the baby, the woman would get to chop of the males arm?
The law requires judgements to be fair and whole for the safety of the community.
Where does the line get drawn, does the woman that does not want to keep the baby, get the abortion and then had over the fetus to the male, so he can keep it?
Getting pregnant is not a crime, but you want to sentence the female for a crime and punish her in the most insane way possible. What you are saying verges on slavery. And on top of that, you want to make it so the male can force the child to be born and then walk away with zero responsibility to the child. I will ever understand the far right, ever.
I've seen the kind of "women" (a.k.a. teenage girls) who get abortions. They're mostly high school "*%@!" who use abortion as a form of birth control. You are also using a straw man argument in equating abortion with cancer. Cancer is life-threatening. Every pro-life politician I've seen have been OK with exemptions if an abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother.
I also don't buy the argument that abortion is only about the mother's body. There is another body growing inside her that those making that argument are selfishly disregarding.
You are also putting words into my mouth.
"And on top of that, you want to make it so the male can force the child to be born and then walk away with zero responsibility to the child."
Please point out where I said that. I'm advocating for laws that allow the father to sue the mother in order to compel her to put the child up for adoption or abort the child (although I am generally against all abortions). If he decides to not take such actions and allow the child to be born, then of course he'd be responsible.
There is no body in there. Well, after about 20 weeks you could argue there is. But before then it's a zygote or a fetus. Not a person.
That is a completely subjective opinion. One could also argue that life begins at conception, while one can also argue that life doesn't being until birth.
If anyone has problems and is offended by the use of certain words, report it and trust that we'll handle it. Don't respond or fight about it or you put yourselves in the line of fire. Be assured that the mods are watching this section like hawks for fighting and personal attacks. Whoever has been involved is already on the radar screen, so please be careful.
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Thank you.
As I stated in another thread, I say this not to threaten, but to be helpful, that you may avoid temp or perma-ban.
Additionally, consider this post a dire warning against labeling or denigrating any people group. This time, you slide. Next time, ban. Again, mods are watching.
Thank you.
First, all abortions happen because of the lack of a support network. If you don't want teens to have abortions, give then free access to birth control. If you don't want woman having abortion, provide a support network. This society provides nothing and expect to stop abortions. That is like throwing a man in the ocean 1500 miles away from the nearest land, and expecting him to swim to shore.
Pregnancy is life threatening, but I was wrong to say that. So I take it back. Pregnancy is like the woman being able to insert a organ into your body and forcing the organ to grow for 9 months. If there is another body inside the woman, then remove the body, if it was a full body, it would not need the mother to survive. If you can force her to grow a fetus inside her, she should be able to force you to grow an extra liver/stomach/lungs inside of you.
Actually, just to be clear on this one, this IS WHAT YOU SAID. No words being put in anyone's mouth, but please explain why you said the below.
I lul'd at that last part he posted, too.
Like paying a very small amount every month can even compare to the THOUSANDS of hours the woman has to use taking care of the child, as well as all the money spent buying clothes, day care, school supplies, toys, entertainment, etc, etc.
No one forced her to get pregnant, though. She did that one her own when she chose to have sex. If she was raped, that would be a different story. I'm assuming that we're not talking about rape here. No one shoved a child into her body against her own will. She chose to allow a man (mod edit). Common sense can tell her what the end result of that choice could be.
Also, you still have failed to point out where I said that the man should have all the power.
A.Nonymous
Extreme Android User
Statistically, that's not even close to being accurate. Statistically speaking teenagers get about 15-20% of abortions and it's probably closer to 15. The facts just don't back up that argument at all.
Freaky never lets the facts get in the way of an overly passive-aggressive, racist, and/or sexist post.
lordofthereef
Android Expert
Thanks for that link. That is downright SCAREY!
And if the male promised that he would be there through everything only to skip out leaving her to hold the bag when she became pregnant? You are still stuck on the act, not the results or the responsibility of the act.
But you need to clear that up, what did you mean when you said what I have quoted?
lordofthereef
Android Expert
My point, from the beginning still stands. You guys all make wonderful points by stating that the woman has more to deal with than the man, EVEN IF the man paid child support. I completely get that. Again, the difference is that it is HER CHOICE to deal with all of that from the first second. We can define the first second as the moment she found out she was pregnant, or the moment she birthed the child. Fact of the matter is SHE decides whether she is going to have/keep the baby and ultimately SHE decides whether she is going to be collecting child support.
I personally suggest we put psychological issues aside, because this isn't about psychological issues. If it were, these men would be legally forced/obligated to be a part of their children's lives, not simply forced to throw some money their way. That is not being a father and, in my eyes, is no better than doing nothing at all for the kid.
I personally suggest we put psychological issues aside, because this isn't about psychological issues. If it were, these men would be legally forced/obligated to be a part of their children's lives, not simply forced to throw some money their way. That is not being a father and, in my eyes, is no better than doing nothing at all for the kid.
lordofthereef
Android Expert
Ok, turn that around. What if he said that and she decided to have an abortion without his knowledge?
Fact is, a promise isn't an entry into a contract. You promise to love a person forever for better or for worse, yadda yadda yadda, in the thing we call marriage. Ironically there is a legal way out of that, called divorce.