Obamacare is cheap!

[byteware]

Byteware:
God to see you still hate governments

I don't have governments. I just understand the benefits and dangers that they pose.

I don't walk into a pit of vipers thinking that nothing will happen, but if I have to, I make sure I don't get bitten (if possible).

heh well each to their own (just dont vote here )

Afraid of government transparency and real competition in markets?

And who will invade Canada?

You DO realize that there are very REAL national threats... right?

The power of the US keeps the world in check, for now. Most "free world" nations have let their military's go because they can hide behind the skirts of the US. That's no secret. Both Russia and China have a military sizable enough and capable of taking and holding Canada, if it weren't for the US. Do they have reason to? Not that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean it will NEVER happen.

the US when ye run out of resources? *cough* IRAQ *cough*

You do realize that we only get about 281,000 barrels of oil from Iraq per day...

Let me put that in perspective. We get 2,500,000 barrels from Canada (per day).

To actually believe that we invaded Iraq for the oil is ridiculous. I know it's a popular belief among those who believe Bush lied to get us into Iraq, but the actual reality is that it would be like searching your kids room under the pretense of looking for drugs to REALLY steal the 2 bucks he keeps hidden in his drawer.

It's a great phrase to use, but it's absolutely ridiculous if you look at the numbers.

 

[LaTuFu]

There are things government does better than the private sector, and these are often necessary for a nations survival:
military, education, healthcare, statistics, regulation, banking, ecomic management

The government has yet to do any program "better" than the private sector. Please provide one example of a successful government program that was more efficient and effective than the private sector version it replaced.

National defense is the prerogative of the Federal Government because it is one of the few items that the Government can actually provide for the greater good. Whether or not they actually do it efficiently is another argument all together.

The Federal Government is not (well, at least not until it became a shareholder of several institutions in 2008 and 2009) in the banking industry. They have the power to regulate the industry, not make markets within it.

Okay, fine, they can gather statistics. I'm willing to bet Google and/or the Mormon Church can rival any data gathering abilities of the Census Bureau.

Their forays into healthcare, also known as "The Veterans Administration" and "Medicare/Medicaid" are various degrees of government run programs at their worst. Spend a day with a veteran seeking medical care at a local VA clinic and get back to us. That is the future of primary care in America if Obamacare rolls out the way the legislation was passed.

The only educational facilities owned and operated by the Federal Government are known collectively as the Service Academies. I might have to give you a point for that one, they are among the finest institutions in the world for creating leaders. They don't have any other educational institutions after that. They set (horrible) policy for public education and have a track record of miserable results to show for that.

Regulation. Are you serious? As just one example of many, it was bank regulations, set in motion by a Democratic Administration (CRA and Administration pressures to lend more money to sub-prime borrowers in the late 90s), then later supported by a Republican Administration (which encouraged or looked the other way as investment firms bundled the sub-primes into other investments), that created the financial mess we're still dealing with. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are fine examples of regulation that should have been better but wasn't. Politicians are clamoring to pass more laws to regulate these industries, when they could have simply enforced the laws in place at the time and not had to deal with this mess today.

Sorry, government rarely gets it done better than the free market. History is littered with the proof. And not just in our country.

 

[byteware]

Nevertheless, I'd agree -- but in your other post, you said the military has a significant involvement with the private sector, as in them being equipped. That's pretty close to accrediting the private sector with design and distribution, which they most certainly did not do with the Internet.

No, the internet was just one example. I could have easily brought up GPS, civilian aircraft, or radar capabilities.

My wet dream would be for NASA and DOD budgets to be swapped. Imagine what amazing things we'd discover if pure science and research were given priority to military pursuits... One can only dream.

I think you are being facetious, and I agree that NASA's budget needs to be greatly increased, and the DOD budget needs to be greatly decreased (preferably AFTER the two wars we are currently engaged in).

However, if they were actually switched, we would be speaking either Chinese or Russian within about 20 years. We just wouldn't have the capability to defend ourself (or anyone else for that matter) against anything more than a paper airplane.

 

[ElasticNinja]

^^ Byteware, you vastly overestimate the Russians
Due to the implosion of the Soviet Union, tjeir GDP HALVED
Its easy to get growth from a low base

As for China, they still have huge issues
$10,000 GDP PC is only the world average, and while the communist parties modernisations in the 60's probably saved China (and killed their brightest ) there are huge enviornmental and structural issues remaining

And the one child policy is outdated

I assure you, by 2050 there will be less then twenty million Chinese speakers in the US, although most educated people in SEAsia will probably have to have a grasp of it


Just remember what they said about Japan

Fortunately China is taking a conservative policy towards growth, preventing a boom/bust cylce (although localised property booms are occuring)

 

[RiverOfIce]

The government has yet to do any program "better" than the private sector. Please provide one example of a successful government program that was more efficient and effective than the private sector version it replaced.

I will give you one that is perfectly on point. Healthcare. The united states of america is one of the only remaining world powers that has health insurance. Most of the first world nations have moved to a government provided health care. So, what has that bought us? The united states is number one in healtcare per capita. But is 37th care. We spend more money on healthcare they any other country. But we are 37th in ranking. 1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Republic of Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States So before you go off saying that governments can not run health care, please get your facts straight. I will throw in a freebie now. The other thing that government does better the private industry, bailouts. That is right, if you have a company, you lobby government not to do anything, you drive the car in the ditch, private sector runs to the government to bail them out.

 

[Crude]

The Postal Service has had trouble scaling their business for a variety of reasons, but this is primarily due to the proliferation of email and the recent rise of fuel prices. For the tea party types, it is also one of a very few government entities explicitly authorized by the Constitution (article 1, section 8, clause 7).

Before we chastise the USPS as an example of government spending out of control, I urge you to consider the profit and loss data for the Department of Defense. Whereas the USPS has posted an $8.5B loss for FY10, I'd imagine (nay, hope) that tea party heads are spinning over the $700B costs associated with maintaining our capacity to conduct military operations in an era lacking any sovereign, malevolent adversary, real or perceived.

So, tea party folks, consider the ballooning military budget as yet another bailout and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as a form of institutionalized socialism wherein your tax dollars are being quite literally spent to prop up an outmoded industry that, unlike GM, will never, ever produce a dime of profit.

Wait, wait, wait... did you just compare the postal service to the military? Seriously?





I can't get over that....seriously?

 

[hakr100]

Wait, wait, wait... did you just compare the postal service to the military? Seriously?





I can't get over that....seriously?

There's no comparison. The military wastes far more money than the postal service.

 

[byteware]

I will give you one that is perfectly on point. Healthcare. The united states of america is one of the only remaining world powers that has health insurance. Most of the first world nations have moved to a government provided health care. So, what has that bought us? The united states is number one in healtcare per capita. But is 37th care. We spend more money on healthcare they any other country. But we are 37th in ranking. 1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Republic of Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States So before you go off saying that governments can not run health care, please get your facts straight. I will throw in a freebie now. The other thing that government does better the private industry, bailouts. That is right, if you have a company, you lobby government not to do anything, you drive the car in the ditch, private sector runs to the government to bail them out.

You do realize that our score is deducted because we don't have UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE... right?

That's not actually a reflection of how our healthcare system works, unfortunately.

Everyone in the nation could get ALL the healthcare that they need to live to 200 years old, and if .0001% weren't able to afford it, we would still be low in the rankings.

 

[byteware]

There's no comparison. The military wastes far more money than the postal service.

I completely agree. The military procurement system needs a complete overhaul.

 

[ElasticNinja]

You do realize that our score is deducted because we don't have UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE... right?

That's not actually a reflection of how our healthcare system works, unfortunately.

Everyone in the nation could get ALL the healthcare that they need to live to 200 years old, and if .0001% weren't able to afford it, we would still be low in the rankings.

In Ireland, NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE
1 place behind UK

 

[byteware]

In Ireland, NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE
1 place behind UK

I could be crazy, but the Health Act 2004 established the Health Services Executive responsible for providing health care services to everyone in Ireland.

Now, there is ALSO a private health care market, but that doesn't mean that Ireland doesn't have UNIVERSAL Health Care.

 

[zauper]

The WHO rankings Riverofice posted are very flawed.
1) They're from 2000. (No rankings are maintained by the WHO or anyone else since then due to the complexity)
2) The factors that go into it are completely ****ed up.
a) If our quality of care is "excellent" in 99% of the country but poor in 1% of the country, and your quality of care is "good" in 100% of the country, you will be ranked higher.
b) Access to care (affordability) is a measure they use in determining the quality of care
c) The WHO does rank the U.S. No. 1 of 191 countries for

 

[ElasticNinja]

I could be crazy, but the Health Act 2004 established the Health Services Executive responsible for providing health care services to everyone in Ireland.

Now, there is ALSO a private health care market, but that doesn't mean that Ireland doesn't have UNIVERSAL Health Care.

Well its not "universal" so how could it be universal

Before the HSE we had regional health boards who run county hospitals and vaccination schemes

We have medical cards for unemployed, disabled and retired people but the state provides little cover for my family, we have to purchase insurance

So we have a healthcare system for the least fortunute but it is VERY MUCH two-teir

This is because our Health minister came from a economic-right party - who helped mess up this country

EDIT: also I presume every state has some sort of healthcare authority to run state hospitals like that, no?

 

[byteware]

Well its not "universal" so how could it be universal

Everyone... is universal.

EDIT: also I presume every state has some sort of healthcare authority to run state hospitals like that, no?

Our government doesn't run hospitals (with the exception of the VA). What an awful thought.

 

[hakr100]

Everyone... is universal.




Our government doesn't run hospitals (with the exception of the VA). What an awful thought.

Yeah, we're far better off having our hospitals run by corporations that rip off patients, insurance companies, and employees, that "dump" impoverished patients, and charge $99 for an aspirin.

 

[LaTuFu]

I will give you one that is perfectly on point. Healthcare. The united states of america is one of the only remaining world powers that has health insurance. Most of the first world nations have moved to a government provided health care. So, what has that bought us? The united states is number one in healtcare per capita. But is 37th care. We spend more money on healthcare they any other country. But we are 37th in ranking. 1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Republic of Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States So before you go off saying that governments can not run health care, please get your facts straight. I will throw in a freebie now. The other thing that government does better the private industry, bailouts. That is right, if you have a company, you lobby government not to do anything, you drive the car in the ditch, private sector runs to the government to bail them out.

Before you toss those countries out as examples of beautifully run, efficient government programs, dig up a list of the top University Hospitals and Private Hospitals in the world. None of the top 10 will be in France, Italy, San Marino or Andorra. 22 of the top 25 are in the United States. Only one appears from France, and thats all the way down at #17. The other 2 are from Germany, who is all the way down there at #26 on your list. (Much closer to the USA than to France on your list, BTW) (36 of the top 50 are in the USA, 64 of the top 100 are in the USA). Although you failed to cite your source, here is mine: World Hospitals' ranking on the Web: Top 1000 World Ranking

I will grant that its probably not the only "world ranking" out there. The point is, all of the socialized medicine economies your list highlights are also the "Who's Who" of medical systems with story after story of endless waits for basic care, years long waiting lists for routine surgeries, and many other issues that sound eerily like the problems plaguing our VA medical system. Oh, and their cost overruns and waste is as bad if not worse that the USA's, its just buried in the rest of the Government's problems, not hanging out on a Public Company's financial report for full inspection.

As for the balance of your comments about private industry bailouts, thanks for highlighting yet another example of Government at its worst and most inefficient.

The healthcare system in the US is definitely broken, I don't think any rational person can dispute that. A system completely owned and operated by the Government is just not the answer. Unless the question is, "how do we make this problem worse?"

Last but not least, I asked for one example of a government run program that was MORE efficient than a free market option. You haven't given one yet. The healthcare systems you've highlighted are even less efficient than the badly broken US Healthcare system. They just have their governments to bail them out. (Where have we heard that before...?)

 

[byteware]

Yeah, we're far better off having our hospitals run by corporations that rip off patients, insurance companies, and employees, that "dump" impoverished patients, and charge $99 for an aspirin.

You've never been in a VA hospital. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such sarcastic statements.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Everyone... is universal.

Yes, but it doesnt provide the same cover as the NHS does
In public hospitals we have private rooms, which are better and have less beds in them, for those who are insured.
This is legacy from our poorer days, and back in the 80's our economy slipped into a depression, and massive cuts were made to the health service

Basically, if you want a decent standard of care, you have to have insurance here

This is not the case in the UK, or France

Our government doesn't run hospitals (with the exception of the VA). What an awful thought.

 

[hakr100]

You've never been in a VA hospital. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such sarcastic statements.

I wouldn't pick a VA hospital as the model example of a not-for-profit hospital. Oh, and I've been in a VA hospital. And my statement was not sarcastic...it was the absolute truth. Just google the hospitals the incoming governor of florida ran. If anyone is an unindicted conspirator, he is. Early in her career, my wife worked at one of his hospitals. Patient care was not the driving force at that facility.

 

[byteware]

Basically, if you want a decent standard of care, you have to have insurance here

That may be, but you have UNIVERSAL health care. You are entitled to Health Care, it's just not as good as those who can pay for it.

I wouldn't pick a VA hospital as the model example of a not-for-profit hospital.

Well, it's a good thing I didn't. I picked the VA as the model example of a GOVERNMENT RUN hospital.

And my statement was not sarcastic...it was the absolute truth.

Is it? Nowhere in your bill will you find the cost of the nurses that attend you, the staff that support the hospital, utilities and other facility costs, or Liability/Malpractice insurance.

Those costs (and others I'm sure I am unaware of) are included in your bill, but are not itemized. These bills are paid by charging you $99 for an aspirin.

Don't like it? I'm sorry, it's expensive to run a hospital.

Just google the hospitals the incoming governor of florida ran. If anyone is an unindicted conspirator, he is. Early in her career, my wife worked at one of his hospitals. Patient care was not the driving force at that facility.

And? There are corrupt people in every field... including government (gasp).

I can give you an example... The Minerals Management Service.

I mean... seriously, the fact that it was so screwed up in ONE government agency is obviously proof that you wouldn't want them running ANYTHING...

sarcasm aside... one bad apple doesn't mean you throw out the entire business model.

 

[ElasticNinja]

sarcasm aside... one bad apple doesn't mean you throw out the entire business model.

Some people would disagree

 

[hakr100]

Is it? Nowhere in your bill will you find the cost of the nurses that attend you, the staff that support the hospital, utilities and other facility costs, or Liability/Malpractice insurance.

Those costs (and others I'm sure I am unaware of) are included in your bill, but are not itemized. These bills are paid by charging you $99 for an aspirin.

Oh? What's the daily room charge for? Use of a bed-sized piece of real estate and the bed?

 

[Bob Maxey]

While we are putting doctors down to "reasonable incomes," we should do the same for corporate execs, whose earnings have gone through the roof the last few decades while they export jobs, cut benefits, and lay off U.S. workers.

NOT trying to argue, just asking a question. I would be interested in what you and others think. Assuming that you believe that exporting jobs, cutting benefits, and layoffs are bad ideas

 

[hakr100]

"Again, I am not looking for a fight, just interested in the thinking. There are some people that think there should be laws that limit what a company can and cannot do."

I'm one of them. We've come a long way in this country since corporations and businesses were allowed to operate without restraints. I don't think we should go backwards to those days.

I don't buy into the conservative credo that we all exist to enrich corporations and their executives and owners. When execs arn 500 to 5000 times more than the average worker, something is drastically wrong.

Perhaps the tax rates of the Republican Eisenhower era would help.

Actually, I think tax rates on the wealthy are far too low, and by the "standards and definitions" bandied about, my wife and I individually are among the wealthy.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I will give you one that is perfectly on point. Healthcare. The united states of america is one of the only remaining world powers that has health insurance. Most of the first world nations have moved to a government provided health care. So, what has that bought us? The united states is number one in healtcare per capita. But is 37th care. We spend more money on healthcare they any other country. But we are 37th in ranking. 1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Republic of Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States So before you go off saying that governments can not run health care, please get your facts straight. I will throw in a freebie now. The other thing that government does better the private industry, bailouts. That is right, if you have a company, you lobby government not to do anything, you drive the car in the ditch, private sector runs to the government to bail them out.

You listed lots of countries. Do you think it is possible that if run privately, these systems might provide better care? Seems to me, that you really cannot compare how well the government does things to the private sector if there is no private sector in the first place.

Bob