Please include NFC in Evo 3D

[EarlyMon]

Yeah it would work on a phone. It doesn't matter whether the chip is placed in a credit card, a phone, or a football. If it's speaking the protocol, it's going to work.

OK - wait a minute.

In the case of a credit card, NFC is literally hardwired one way.

In the case of the phone, NFC is a coil, a little silicon for RF, and software.

If the NFC software is off, there's no way to magically pick up credit card info.

Unless you're saying that the implementation will be to have NFC always live, and if an NFC field is detected by phone, phone arbitrates and says, "Hmmm - are you one of those flyers Google put up all around SF to advertise this business? Oh, ok, you're not - you want my credit card info - hey, np, here it is!"

Now - I know that software CAN be written that way - but I'll be a monkey's uncle IF it's written that way.

NFC can be compared to Bluetooth in many ways: small connection range, low power, one or two way communication. But pairing is much quicker with NFC by design.

Yes - Ok. I'm not sure that it isn't dangerous to carry that analogy too far, tho.

 

[novox77]

Unless you're saying that the implementation will be to have NFC always live, and if an NFC field is detected by phone, phone arbitrates and says, "Hmmm - are you one of those flyers Google put up all around SF to advertise this business? Oh, ok, you're not - you want my credit card info - hey, np, here it is!"

Now - I know that software CAN be written that way - but I'll be a monkey's uncle IF it's written that way.

I agree, but there are tradeoffs to having it turn off and on. What would trigger this process? AFAIK, there's no way to auto-turn on when it's in proximity to a scanner. Something would need to stay awake on the phone side to "listen" for the proximity. I don't claim to be an expert here; perhaps the magnetic fields can trigger some part of the hardware to do something that the software can watch for.

If payment is a manual process where the user has to manually turn it on at the time of payment, and manually turn it off when you're done, is the manual step canceling out any convenience that this form of payment offers? I can take out a CC and wave it at the scanner and be done. But if I use my phone, I have to turn it on, bypass the lockscreen, and then toggle a switch? Seems like a pain.

If NFC broadcast is automatically started when in proximity, how do you ensure the scanner is a legit source? BT has limited authentication when pairing (via a 4-digit code). NFC pairs quicker, and I believe it's because there isn't ANY authentication going on. And even if there is, how do you prevent someone from cloning a scanner and making it look legit to fool your phone into revealing the data?

I'm not saying the tech is not viable; there just needs to be more consideration on protecting the info, especially when you're dealing with payment processing.

 

[EarlyMon]

I agree, but there are tradeoffs to having it turn off and on. What would trigger this process? AFAIK, there's no way to auto-turn on when it's in proximity to a scanner. Something would need to stay awake on the phone side to "listen" for the proximity. I don't claim to be an expert here; perhaps the magnetic fields can trigger some part of the hardware to do something that the software can watch for.

Exactly - all it takes is a single dialog box saying, "Is this ok?" and a single press to protect the transaction - not a huge downgrade in convenience, especially if it's a legal transaction and you're already holding your phone over the dingus for a read anyway - just a thumb shift would do.

If payment is a manual process where the user has to manually turn it on at the time of payment, and manually turn it off when you're done, is the manual step canceling out any convenience that this form of payment offers? I can take out a CC and wave it at the scanner and be done. But if I use my phone, I have to turn it on, bypass the lockscreen, and then toggle a switch? Seems like a pain.

Well - I'm just postulating here - but it seems if there were a simple, handy HTC NFC on/off widget, and that if it were put on the new Sense 3 user-customizable lockscreen, problem solved.

If NFC broadcast is automatically started when in proximity, how do you ensure the scanner is a legit source? BT has limited authentication when pairing (via a 4-digit code). NFC pairs quicker, and I believe it's because there isn't ANY authentication going on. And even if there is, how do you prevent someone from cloning a scanner and making it look legit to fool your phone into revealing the data?

I'm not saying the tech is not viable; there just needs to be more consideration on protecting the info, especially when you're dealing with payment processing.

Well - here's our joint problem - that word IF that started your point.

We need more info, no question about it.

And I mega-agree that we need to be diligent on this and not blindly trusting.

 

[lordofthereef]

Exactly - all it takes is a single dialog box saying, "Is this ok?" and a single press to protect the transaction - not a huge downgrade in convenience, especially if it's a legal transaction and you're already holding your phone over the dingus for a read anyway - just a thumb shift would do.

This is exactly how I imagined, nay ASSUMED, it would have to be. Anything less than this seems ridiculous in this day and age.

Personally I still see it as more convenient than busting out my wallet (especially since my lady carries that for me usually - like I said before, I know exactly where my phone is at all times but my wallet and keys I am always misplacing!)

FWIW I don't think this is meant to be the be all end all replacement for credit cards, just a way to store all of your cards in one handy place. let's not forget that this could be handy for things like club and discount cards as well!

 

[novox77]

The credit card industry definitely doesn't want to be sidelined by NFC, so I would expect there to be some phone vs card war while the tech is adopted. And one thing the CCs are going to tout is convenience. taking out a wallet and waving it at something is going to be easier than taking out your phone, turning it on, and turning on a toggle, and then pressing yes or no to confirm transaction.

So I think there's much work to be done before NFC on phones become more viable than a CC equipped with NFC.

Have you guys ever heard about the ATM fraud where hackers install a thin keypad on top of the actual keypad in order to log your keystrokes? The scary part is that the bottom keypad still registers, so you think everything is just fine.

I can see hackers hiding a scanner near an official POS scanner, and your data is read by both devices at the time of scan. That's why some sort of encryption needs to be enforced at the POS level, along with a unique identifier outside of RF to hinder cloning.

 

[lordofthereef]

And one thing the CCs are going to tout is convenience. taking out a wallet and waving it at something is going to be easier than taking out your phone, turning it on, and turning on a toggle, and then pressing yes or no to confirm transaction.

I think this is largely a matter of opinion. I take payments at an urgent care after hours clinic and some of the giant wallets ladies pull out and then try to fish out the card they want to use amaze me. Some of them take upwards of a minute to pull a card out of a wallet that was past max capacity 15 cards ago. For the person who has something like a single credit card and a single debit card, I totally see the wallet being more convenient. For the person with a dozen plus cards, not having to carry them everywhere when they are already carrying a phone anyway would be more convenient. Frankly, I don't see unlocking my phone, tapping an NFC app, selecting a card, and waving the device in front of some machine as that big of an inconvenience. I can do that faster than most woman I see can find their wallet in the bowels of their purse.

 

[lordofthereef]

I can see hackers hiding a scanner near an official POS scanner, and your data is read by both devices at the time of scan. That's why some sort of encryption needs to be enforced at the POS level, along with a unique identifier outside of RF to hinder cloning.

Another easy way for your information to be stolen is when you pay for dinner at a restaurant. You had your card to the server and he/she walks away. At the end of the day, information can be stolen by people who want to. It helps to deal with lenders/banks who are willing to protect you from this and will erase fraudulent charges from your account if reported.

At the end of the day, if you (not you personally) are th paranoid type, your best bet is to pay everything with cash. This cannot be cloned, or copied, or information from it stolen. I suppose you can get mugged though.

 

[EarlyMon]

It's quite the problem, isn't it? I've been to places where the most cloned, fake object you find were US 100 dollar bills.

 

[novox77]

I think this is largely a matter of opinion. I take payments at an urgent care after hours clinic and some of the giant wallets ladies pull out and then try to fish out the card they want to use amaze me. Some of them take upwards of a minute to pull a card out of a wallet that was past max capacity 15 cards ago. For the person who has something like a single credit card and a single debit card, I totally see the wallet being more convenient. For the person with a dozen plus cards, not having to carry them everywhere when they are already carrying a phone anyway would be more convenient. Frankly, I don't see unlocking my phone, tapping an NFC app, selecting a card, and waving the device in front of some machine as that big of an inconvenience. I can do that faster than most woman I see can find their wallet in the bowels of their purse.

I'm trying to come at this from the viewpoint of the population as a whole, which means that most people don't even own a smartphone. And what percentage of people think gadgets are easy to use? What's more familiar: a CC or a smartphone? Pulling out the CC of your choice and waving it at a scanner seems more appealing than using a phone. I'm with you; I personally would like my gadget to do a ton of things so I can simplify. But most people aren't like that. Such a gadget would be way too 'complex' for them. That's why people settle for iPhones. And that's only smartphone users.

Smartphones are out of reach for a lot of people due to the phone's price as well as the very expensive data plan that goes along with it. How much does it cost to get a credit card? nothing. If a CC offers the convenience of NFC, why not use the CC?

So I really do think there's going to be a war between CC RFID and Phone RFID, and it's unclear how it will play out with the general public.

 

[alcohol]

Personally, I wouldn't use NFC for payments. It's not going to replace my credit card anytime soon. But there are many other uses for NFC technology that i can see myself using.

According to wikipedia:

• Card emulation: the NFC device behaves like an existing contactless card
• Reader mode: the NFC device is active and reads a passive RFID tag, for example for interactive advertising
• P2P mode: two NFC devices communicating together and exchanging information.

• Mobile ticketing in public transport: an extension of the existing contactless infrastructure, such as Mobile Phone Boarding Pass.[2]
• Mobile payment: the device acts as a debit/credit payment card.
• Smart poster: the mobile phone is used to read RFID tags on outdoor billboards.
• Bluetooth pairing: in the future, pairing of Bluetooth 2.1 devices with NFC support will be as easy as bringing them close together and accepting the pairing. The process of activating Bluetooth on both sides, searching, waiting, pairing and authorization will be replaced by simply bringing the mobile phones close to each other.

• Electronic ticketing: airline tickets,[2] concert/event tickets, and others
• Electronic money
• Travel cards
• Identity documents
• Mobile commerce
• Electronic keys: replacements for physical car keys, house/office keys, hotel room keys, etc.
• NFC can be used to configure and initiate other wireless network connections such as Bluetooth, Wi-Fi or Ultra-wideband.

I think it'll be very helpful if i can save some information on my phone, just put it next to the device and have it pick it up.
For example - tickets at the airport. Put my phone next to the airline NFC receiver and have it print my boarding pass.

I don't care if it's not that secure, since nobody can do anything with my ticket (has my name on it).

Another use i could see myself accepting is - electronic keys. Maybe an app that lets you put in your pass code (on the phone), before it unlocks through nfc receiver on door.

Not to mention other uses such as that application called "bump". I don't actually know how that works (blue tooth?), but i can see it being useful if you need to send some information to another phone, you can do it pretty much instantly via NFC.

Now i don't understand whenever people talk about NFC they only talk about payments and the security risks that come with it.

There are so many other useful purposes that don't require that much security because it can't compromise your personal information.

I would love for NFC to be started small like the examples i provided, and when technology improves we can think about replacing our credit cards.

 

[lordofthereef]

I'm trying to come at this from the viewpoint of the population as a whole, which means that most people don't even own a smartphone. And what percentage of people think gadgets are easy to use? What's more familiar: a CC or a smartphone? Pulling out the CC of your choice and waving it at a scanner seems more appealing than using a phone. I'm with you; I personally would like my gadget to do a ton of things so I can simplify. But most people aren't like that. Such a gadget would be way too 'complex' for them. That's why people settle for iPhones. And that's only smartphone users.

Smartphones are out of reach for a lot of people due to the phone's price as well as the very expensive data plan that goes along with it. How much does it cost to get a credit card? nothing. If a CC offers the convenience of NFC, why not use the CC?

So I really do think there's going to be a war between CC RFID and Phone RFID, and it's unclear how it will play out with the general public.

If you are making the argument that most people don't even have smartphones, it seems to me you can leave it at that. Clearly only the people that own the technology will be able to make use of it, right? That said, who is to say this tech won't migrate to other phones as well if it takes off?

We are talking about it being more difficult to whip out a phone and make a few finger presses to get the RFID working. In your opinion, that is more difficult than using a card. Great. I don't think the card is going anywhere for a very long time.

Perhaps this is just me, but I don't see this tech as a replacement for cards, or even a replacement for other tech. I see it as another way to pay for things. You forget your wallet or misplace a card (or the scenario I mentioned above where you don't want to dig the card out of the mess); no problem. Tap, swipe, tap, wave [sorry example of what one will have to do to get things paid with using only their phone] and you are on your way. All the while, the guy behind you doesn't have a smartphone so he uses the tried and true swipe the credit card technique for his transaction. No reason for this and other RFID technologies not to live in harmony, IMO.

 

[EarlyMon]

Perhaps this is just me, but I don't see this tech as a replacement for cards, or even a replacement for other tech. I see it as another way to pay for things. You forget your wallet or misplace a card (or the scenario I mentioned above where you don't want to dig the card out of the mess); no problem. Tap, swipe, tap, wave [sorry example of what one will have to do to get things paid with using only their phone] and you are on your way. All the while, the guy behind you doesn't have a smartphone so he uses the tried and true swipe the credit card technique for his transaction. No reason for this and other RFID technologies not to live in harmony, IMO.

OK - now look at it from the other side - the credit card company and the vendors.

The vendors want to streamline the transaction - the credit card companies want to lower their costs.

Updating smartphones is easier than issuing cards - and the demographics already self-qualify in many cases.

Bingo - the credit card companies will start this fight between the two.

You shut down their need to make and certify plastic - they'll like that. You make it partially a problem with your celluar provider if your phone (along with your credit card) is lost - they will LOVE that.

Vendors get less liability all around - why didn't they check his id through the phone? (yeah, forget silly where liability is concerned) - they'll love that.

And you say you have a credit card, but no smartphone? Why, here's our offer - buy our smartphone with your credit card built-in AND ... (wait for it, here comes the pitch)... your worries are over! No more activating credit cards! No more worries about your new card in the mail! But wait, there's more!...

Oh - I think there's a storm brewing, for sure.

 

[novox77]

Why would the credit card want to coexist? Why didn't the RIAA want Napster to coexist? Ok the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is something new is going to take away a lot of profit from the incumbent.

Every transaction you make with your NFC phone is one transaction the credit card company loses.

So yeah, credit card companies are going to try to convince all of us why CCs are still the best, safe, and most convenient way to pay.

This will be as big as Apple vs. Android. Rowe vs. Wade. Ok maybe not as big as that last one.

 

[EarlyMon]

Every transaction you make with your NFC phone is one transaction the credit card company loses.

Oh. I was referring to the objects, not the classes.

OK - your CC is now on your phone. Your NFC phone is now performing the transactions - the CC company doesn't lose.

You want to buy train tokens (because last I read, train authority in Taiwan isn't having NFC because it's too slow) - you use your credit card _on_ your NFC phone to buy them.

I wouldn't see fewer CC xactions because of NFC - I'm seeing more of them (for those with NFC phones).

~~~~

(edit) I just realized - I guess it doesn't matter whether it goes one way or the other - storm clouds are brewing on this.

 

[lordofthereef]

The credit card will certainly coexist, at least for a while. It would be foolish to require one to have a phone with this tech built in. They stand to save money by issuing fewer cards, but they will make less in the long run if they alienate their userbase. I don't see plastic disappearing anytime soon.

Early already covered this more or less, but perhaps you (Novo) are looking at this differently than I am. The transaction will still be the credit card company's transaction, just without the card. Sort of like buying something online. I don't actually need my card so long as I have the relevant information. The credit card company still benefits from my online purchases even without me sliding my card through a machine to make the purchase.

 

[EarlyMon]

Yes, but not exclusively.

Don't underestimate the carriers - they'll very likely going to end up allowing you to buy stuff and put in on your phone bill in no time - in fact - right about the time the credit card companies decide to start selling phones.

That's my prediction of the day - you heard it here first. (lma0)

 

[novox77]

Yes, but not exclusively.

Don't underestimate the carriers - they'll very likely going to end up allowing you to buy stuff and put in on your phone bill in no time - in fact - right about the time the credit card companies decide to start selling phones.

That's my prediction of the day - you heard it here first. (lma0)

Yeah this was what I had in mind when I was thinking CC vs Phone wars regarding NFC. The idea is that there's a new middleman in town (the carrier). Some of this is actually being pushed by Google as a convenience feature for Android users. They can buy apps and have the cost be added to the phone bill. No more credit card. Of course in this scenario, NFC is out of the picture, but if the carrier has the tech to do payment processing, the CC companies will get nervous. They already are.

 

[lordofthereef]

Yes, but not exclusively.

Don't underestimate the carriers - they'll very likely going to end up allowing you to buy stuff and put in on your phone bill in no time - in fact - right about the time the credit card companies decide to start selling phones.

That's my prediction of the day - you heard it here first. (lma0)

Hmmm. I can see small transactions, but not very big ones. At the end of the day, I still suspect this would do more to help CC purchases than hurt them. I suppose we will have to wait and see.

 

[EarlyMon]

Ah, didn't know that.

In that case - most people will end up paying their bills online - with their credit cards.

This is not going to end well for us.

 

[evotitans]

Ah, didn't know that.

In that case - most people will end up paying their bills online - with their credit cards.

This is not going to end well for us.

Hmm, sounds exactly how I am. I rarely ever use my credit card for actual instore payments.

I do almost all my transactions Online, with only my Check card used for instore. In fact lately I have gone back to using cash as a means of balancing myself better.

Im not on board w/ NFC yet, so I wouldnt be upset with it not being in the 3D.

Granted though...its always nice to have extra features.

 

[novox77]

Interesting. I swore off using cash recently simply from being sick of dealing with change. I use my CCs exclusively now. And I pay off the balance in full every month.

I don't mind paying by phone. The question is if I'll ever to remember to pull out the phone (left pocket) instead of the wallet (right pocket) simply due to muscle memory.

And as for security, I have to deal with my account on the Playstation Network. What a pain in the ass. It makes me a little less wanting NFC on my phone.

 

[evotitans]

And as for security, I have to deal with my account on the Playstation Network. What a pain in the ass. It makes me a little less wanting NFC on my phone.

Actually I meant to mention that in my post too. I dont even have a PS3, have an XBOX and I'm still worried. As much as technology is advancing, it seems like hackers are evolving even faster.

Android isnt exactly the most secure system, I dont want to trust all my money within my phone.

 

[novox77]

You would think that anyone with 70million user records containing sensitive records like passwords and CC info would freakin encrypt those fields on the database side...

I can see some mom and pop online store not doing this (no SSL either), but for Sony not to do it for their PSN is so inexcusable I still can't even believe it.

 

[flyjbaker]

I am pretty sure Passports use this technology and there was a big stink about it when they mentioned it. Sorry if this was discussed above....I didn't read the whole thing.

 

[lordofthereef]

I don't mind paying by phone. The question is if I'll ever to remember to pull out the phone (left pocket) instead of the wallet (right pocket) simply due to muscle memory.

Start putting your phone in the right and wallet in the left

I also don't really understand the security issues with PSN. All anyone could possibly get from me is my home address. Are people storing more information than this on their PSN accounts?