Postal Service Discussion

[3devious]

I wouldn't hesitate to fire an employee, if there was a reason. Thing is, the usps has held up their end. Yeah, they run a deficit, but that is correctable(can we agree here?). And for connections, it was in response to cipher saying you had to have connections to get into usps. I know for afact connections can go a long way at ups. And there are many instances where no tests are required for a civil service job. However, MOST do. Including usps jobs.

I don't have enough data to discuss whether or not MOST do but when you say all do as you have, it makes me question your credibility. The only civil service test I'm confident that would be applied unilaterally is a drug test (now what we do with those results is way beyond me.)

While Social Security and the USPS have different issues, they are both held up as shining examples of what can be done when services are taken out of people's hands. They are terrible examples now. They may have worked in the past, but people also thought slavery was an acceptable way to do business in the past. While both these atrocities are not the same, the point is that we move on to something that does work and right now the USPS is not it.

Basically, I do not feel that the USPS has held up their end as they have been in the red for the better part of my lifetime. It is time to move to the future. I can't support funding them just because we've had them for almost as long as we've been a country.

Democrats tried to keep schools segregated, republicans tried to develop a public assistance system for this country. Many groups and factors have changed over the decades. The USPS has updated itself too, but is not adapting enough to meet the needs in a sustainable manner. I can agree that the problem can be remedied if the USPS is willing to do what it needs to do to fulfill its goal of breaking even. I don't know or care what the solution is. I do not necessarily think that the workers are overpaid (yeah the freak driving on my street and the nutjob that constantly puts my mother's mail in the City's PO box shouldn't even be working there and I hope that they are exceptions to the rule.)

As long as I don't have to support whatever ends up propping them up, I don't care. It is funny that everyone else who does not pay taxes is somehow a drain on our country, yet the self-sustaining USPS is OK. /sarcasm.

 

[mdram]

I can agree that the problem can be remedied if the USPS is willing to do what it needs to do to fulfill its goal of breaking even. I [\QUOTE]

this is part of the problem
postmaster generals have come up with solutions, but they cannot implemnet anything without the approval of congress
its been suggested many times that saturday delivery be canceled. due to postal employee unions and thier lobbying, and then congress agreeing, it has not been allowed.
they are seeking permission to combine post offices in areas where they are losing money.
do 3 towns withing 10min of each other with populations of 100 people each each need a post office?

 

[nlsme]

Makes perfect sense the prefunded retirement from an orginization that receives no tax dollars is responsible for local governments inabilty to balance their budget. NOT.

Yea, direct mail marketing! I'd say 90% of my mail is junk mail... I don't got time to dig up statistics, but I'd say a large if not half the revenue of the USPS comes from junk mail.

Basically, what you've got is a government sanctioned, pointless symbiosis.

Junk mailers can send out pointless pieces of paper for relatively cheap, while Joe Blow can keep making 50k a year doing mindless work.


Now, if you didn't have to factor in retirement, which civil service retirement plans are pretty much bankrupting cities, States and the Feds, you'd have a defensible thing.

Our economy is based on people buying and getting paid for stuff we really don't need. And this system of junk mail keeping the 50k delivery guy employed would be fine, if his retirement plan was sustainable and not contributing to States budget crisis.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/business/economy/21bankruptcy.html?_r=3&src=busln

 

[nlsme]

but the bridges are built with gov money, so i ask again

Does it cost you more to use that service. Using your logic, every bridge should be a toll bridge, because your drive costs the government more then your neighbors.

 

[mdram]

Does it cost you more to use that service. Using your logic, every bridge should be a toll bridge, because your drive costs the government more then your neighbors.

huh? my argument is about distance traveled.
if my neighbor and i both used the same bridge, then the same cost would apply
if however i continued across 3 more bridges i would expect to be charged for each one.
he shouldnt be charged for the same price for 1 i pay for 4

 

[nlsme]

You DON'T fund. You never have, you never will. Unless you mail something. Social security does not belong in this thread. One is something the government does right, the other is something the government does wrong. They are polar opposites. Doubt me, or do some research. Secretaries have to take a placement tests. Corrections, police guess what, about 5 tests and a physical. Guess what, there are state tests that are required to work in the private sector.

I don't have enough data to discuss whether or not MOST do but when you say all do as you have, it makes me question your credibility. The only civil service test I'm confident that would be applied unilaterally is a drug test (now what we do with those results is way beyond me.)

While Social Security and the USPS have different issues, they are both held up as shining examples of what can be done when services are taken out of people's hands. They are terrible examples now. They may have worked in the past, but people also thought slavery was an acceptable way to do business in the past. While both these atrocities are not the same, the point is that we move on to something that does work and right now the USPS is not it.

Basically, I do not feel that the USPS has held up their end as they have been in the red for the better part of my lifetime. It is time to move to the future. I can't support funding them just because we've had them for almost as long as we've been a country.

Democrats tried to keep schools segregated, republicans tried to develop a public assistance system for this country. Many groups and factors have changed over the decades. The USPS has updated itself too, but is not adapting enough to meet the needs in a sustainable manner. I can agree that the problem can be remedied if the USPS is willing to do what it needs to do to fulfill its goal of breaking even. I don't know or care what the solution is. I do not necessarily think that the workers are overpaid (yeah the freak driving on my street and the nutjob that constantly puts my mother's mail in the City's PO box shouldn't even be working there and I hope that they are exceptions to the rule.)

As long as I don't have to support whatever ends up propping them up, I don't care. It is funny that everyone else who does not pay taxes is somehow a drain on our country, yet the self-sustaining USPS is OK. /sarcasm.

 

[nlsme]

huh? my argument is about distance traveled.
if my neighbor and i both used the same bridge, then the same cost would apply
if however i continued across 3 more bridges i would expect to be charged for each one.
he shouldnt be charged for the same price for 1 i pay for 4

But he does. And guess what, that's part of the reason our country is as functional as it is. That's my point. How about snow plowing. Does he get a break if he doesn't drive in the snow, while you do. Or schools, does he get a break on his property taxes because he doesn't have kids in school? I could keep going if you want.

 

[mdram]

But he does. And guess what, that's part of the reason our country is as functional as it is. That's my point. How about snow plowing. Does he get a break if he doesn't drive in the snow, while you do. Or schools, does he get a break on his property taxes because he doesn't have kids in school? I could keep going if you want.

well the school tax you are right on
and property tax is a percentage of the value.
highway funds are via a gas tax, so he does get a break by not driving

 

[3devious]

You DON'T fund. You never have, you never will. Unless you mail something. Social security does not belong in this thread. One is something the government does right, the other is something the government does wrong. They are polar opposites. Doubt me, or do some research. Secretaries have to take a placement tests. Corrections, police guess what, about 5 tests and a physical. Guess what, there are state tests that are required to work in the private sector.

Who cares about tests when some people have jobs and even own business yet can't do simple math? You don't know that I never will support the USPS if they bail them out, I will. If they end up not having to repay their loans, I have. You could say that the fact that they aren't paying taxes and yet using our infrastructure, I am.

The USPS isn not something the government does right. It pisses away money and makes cheap people want to make those who understand that nothing is free pay for that crap. Why are you telling people to do research when you seem to call things sustainable when they have run in the red for many years? The days of handouts are over. Pay for what you use for once instead of expecting society to help you.

If you are frustrated that you are preaching to people who "just don't get it," imagine how the people who can add and subtract feel.

The words sustainable + not costing us anything + USPS do not belong in this thread other than to say that it isn't happening. It is completely fair to compare it to other institutional failures.

 

[nlsme]

Okay, you both travel 15 miles a day. You cross 3 bridges and he doesn't. Does he get a break on his gas tax? And our roads are not fully funded off said gas tax.

 

[nlsme]

The tests were reiterated because you said you doubted me. I told you do some research, because you were acting like you knew what you were talking about.

The reason the isps is "off budget" is because congress determined they were self sustaining. They came to that conclusionafter 200 years of budgets showed them that. Maybe you should tell your congressman the words don't belong together.

 

[byteware]

Okay, first off, I don't have the time for quote trees so forgive me here. Ill start with byteware. Banking system profits for decade, followed by the largest government bailout in history.

Which they are repaying, unlike the USPS.

Usps losses since its inception. WRONG. PERIOD. FALSE STATEMENT.

You have yet to provide any proof that the CFO of the USPS was wrong when he said it.

You can say "FALSE STATEMENT" all you want, but unless you actually provide some proof that the CFO of the USPS was wrong. It's just you spouting BS that you wish was true, and hope the rest of us just take at face value.

And in case you didn't know... deficits and losses... are the same thing.

GM profitable even after decades of bad years. No arguement, but don't forget about their bailout that happened to be larger than the decades of losses by the usps. Also don't forget GM is small compared to the usps.

And yet, they were able to repay theirs. They became profitable, and repaid that massive loan, with interest. You would think that the USPS would be able to do that.

Plenty a carriers walk. Ussualy in more densely populated areas. And their days start early and end late. Just because you get you mail late in the day means squat.

Prove it. I want stats on how many carriers walk.

What I see is that you state things you think SHOULD be true as fact, and refusing to do any actual research to support your beliefs.

And fed ex and UPS do have similar wages. Reread my statement, because here you are just making yourself look like an ass.

PayScale - United Parcel Service (UPS), Inc. Employer Wages, Hourly Wage Rate

PayScale - U.S. Postal Service (USPS) Employer Salary, Average Salaries


I provided the averages. That may make me look like an ass, but your assertion that it isn't so doesn't mean that's true.

Do your own research and show us what you say is true, or just accept that anyone reading this thread knows you are full of it.

Especially when you think an engineer should make more then an exec. Sorry, doesn't work that way int the private secret either.

To further put things in perspective.

A postal clerk at the USPS makes as much as an account executive at UPS.

How's that for disparity?

$50,132 for a UPS account executive.

$52,195 for a USPS Postal Clerk.

(And FYI... A senior Programmer Analyst.. at UPS... makes $82,307... so, YES.... Developers make more money than executives. Not senior executives... but more than executives... in the Private sector).

PayScale - United Parcel Service (UPS), Inc. Employer Salary, Average Salaries

I know you hate dealing with facts, and would rather just discuss what you think is true, but come on... this is so much more fun.

And there are many instances where no tests are required for a civil service job. However, MOST do. Including usps jobs.

I like that you think the fact that the process starts with a test means it's some sort of impartial process. That's cute.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Banking system... profits for decades

while this is correct, it totally made me LOL


________


I have no idea about the USPS, but all the European state owned mail companies I have dealt with, I have only had one issue (a posture went crazy and threw letters around my suburb.. he was fired)

I support a state owned mail company, they are still needed, esp to ensure flat prices

 

[nlsme]

Byteware, a deficit of 5 bucks is a deficit. That article never said how big the deficits were. After 30 years of being off budget, their debt is 15b. That's an average of 500 million year. Pretty small considering the 80b annual budget. And the false statetement was YOU (not Strasser)sayingnothing but deficits since their inception.

Its funny you want proof that a lot of postal workers walk. Shows just how little you know about the usps. Guess what, some use 4 wheelers, and some use donkeys. Boats, planes and a few other crazy things.

Its funny you took what I said about programmers/execs, and just had to disprove it. Problem is, you took the highest prgramming job and compared it to a starting junior exec salary.

As for the rest of your post, you really should have taken the time to reread what I said. But since you didn't, I'll retierate for you. Ups(not the usps) and fed ex have comparable wages. Yet fed ex has been in the red since 2007(to the tune of 7 billion).

 

[nlsme]

Banking should be GUARANTEED income. They borrow money for next to nothing, then relend at significantly higher rates. You know how many thousands of banks have failed in this country in the last 30 years?

while this is correct, it totally made me LOL


________


I have no idea about the USPS, but all the European state owned mail companies I have dealt with, I have only had one issue (a posture went crazy and threw letters around my suburb.. he was fired)

I support a state owned mail company, they are still needed, esp to ensure flat prices

 

[cipher6]

Banking should be GUARANTEED income. They borrow money for next to nothing, then relend at significantly higher rates. You know how many thousands of banks have failed in this country in the last 30 years?

Now your just being stupid. Banking requires risk, which is why we have failed banks (just like failed every other businesses.) And this attitude seems to explain why you would think the USPS (which would be a failed business too, without special favors from the Gov.) is so wonderful.

 

[nlsme]

Dude, yeah banking has risks. Your right. Im done with you. You see no value in the post office. I do. Its infrastructure. Ive pointed out it isnt perfect. I have also pointed out these can AND will be corrrected. I have also pointed out that a much smaller orginazation has ran in the red to a larger degree. You just repeating the same tired arguement.

 

[cipher6]

I chalked up the USPS to difference of opinion already, but saying "banking should be GUARANTEED income" is silly.

 

[nlsme]

It should. There is only risk if you are loose with your lending. Home ownership is STILL at 86%. You know how much money credit cards make them, and how low the default rate is? Thats not the reason thousands have failed. Do you remember savings and loans?

 

[nlsme]

Im not saying no banks failed because of the risk involved. But, corruption, mismanagement, and incompetance played a larger part.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Cipher, you do understand how interest rates work, right?


Banks get Capitalism when things are good, Socialism when things are bad

 

[cipher6]

It should. There is only risk if you are loose with your lending.

Banks do more than just lend money.

Home ownership is STILL at 86%

Where do you get your data?

4th quarter 2010 66.9%

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/qtr310/files/q310press.pdf

You know how much money credit cards make them, and how low the default rate is?

May 2010:

An index of new defaults, the Standard & Poor’s/Experian Consumer Credit Default Indices, showed this week that in the three months through April the default rate on credit card loans had climbed to 9.14 percent, the highest since the index began to be calculated in 2004.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/business/economy/22charts.html?_r=1


S&P/Experian Consumer Credit Default Indices
Bank Card current= 6.73
change from November = -1.77%
Change from December 2009 = -17.68%

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ser...alue3=abinary;+charset=UTF-8&blobnocache=true

and:

S&P/Experian Indices Show Rise in Mortgage Defaults
http://www.standardandpoors.com/ser...alue3=abinary;+charset=UTF-8&blobnocache=true



Basically, defaults were off the charts 1-2 years ago, and are starting to come back down now.

Thats not the reason thousands have failed. Do you remember savings and loans?

The reasons so many banks failed recently was because they repackaged home loans (to people who shouldn't have had a home loan) got them AAA rated by the ratings agency (even though the people who took the loans were risky bets) then resold them all over the place. When people started defaulting banks didn't have enough capital to pay back what they owe... ie banking crisis.

I

m not saying no banks failed because of the risk involved. But, corruption, mismanagement, and incompetance played a larger part.

Yes, agreed. But how can you see that in the banks, and fault them for it, but praise it in the post office. The USPS would be a failed institution if not for government support, just like GM and many banks... because of corruption, mismanagement, and incompetence.

Cipher, you do understand how interest rates work, right?

yes.

Do you understand how combustion engines work? Whats the point?

Banks get Capitalism when things are good, Socialism when things are bad

Not all banks, some went down. And GE got bailouts too, their not a bank. Its got nothing to do with banks but stability of the economic system. If they think your company is "too big to fail," meaning if you go under there will be a catastrophic domino effect, the gov. bailed you out.

I know what your getting at, and don't like it either. But what I don't get is, cry about gov. bailout of bad mismanaged private companies, and praise gov. bailouts of bad mismanaged public institutions?

I don't think we should have bailed out the banks or car companies. the FDIC is there for banks, and I'm sure some savy investor would move in to replace the demand created by GM going away.

But I also don't think the freaking post office is a shining example of government efficiency either.

 

[nlsme]

Typo, I use my phone, and my posts are filled with them. I said 30 years for a reason.

 

[bamaredwingsfan]

I find it funny that most people think they know the problems with the postal service, when until you have worked there, an seen what goes on inside the building, then you have no idea. With that being said, i have worked there for going on 10 years, and have seen my share of good an bad. This huge debt the USPS has accumilated over the last 10 years is easily explained. Our former great Post Master General, who in my opinion was behind the times is mostly to blame.

The Postal Service

 

[nlsme]

And, if you can agree it is corruption, mismanagement, and incopetence that is the reason for most banks failing, how can you argue that banking SHOULDNT be a guarenteeincome sorce? Your logic fails.