Help Required Environmnetal Changes

[Thom]

There are some problems that have been hanging around since the first hour of release of the Bionic and well before then ...

Spoiler

The whole idea of pre-installed software (A.K.A. bloatware) was to get new users used to the idea of installing add-on apps to enhance their environment.

The method of maintaining pre-installed software for years and years was never really factored in. It was just done.

The Android system runs on a collection of hardware bases that are all slightly different as the manufacturers jockey to add bells-and-whistles to attract sales.

Verizon makes changes on the tower side that introduce problems in the software used on deployed devices and this results in some data drops in some cases and a lot of data drops in other cases.

Each of these deployed devices needs to be tweaked to correct the tower-side induced problem.

When Windows is released it is recognized that there are going to be bugs and there is a mechanism that can be run to apply incremental patches to the system to correct them without reinstalling the system.

So ... what's the basis for 98% of the messages in this forum? There is no way to patch the system other than to release a new version and make sure you have all the pre-installed software present and it is updated.

This environment needs patches and this environment needs to make all pre-installed apps optional. Updates to pre-installed apps should be distributed through Play Store and not the system OTA.

It certainly looks like a tower-side change was made the week before 5.9.905 was OTAd to everyone and there should have been a patch sent out to correct the havoc it caused. There was no way to do that and the correction was obviously included in the first ICS leak.

It is my understanding that there are no pre-installed apps included on the iPhone5 from Verizon. Is that correct?

What

 

[dautley]

It is my understanding that there are no pre-installed apps included on the iPhone5 from Verizon. Is that correct?
… Thom

While I don't have or have ever had a iPhone, it is my understanding that there is no Verizon bloat or even a Verizon logo on any iPhone, Apple to their credit refused to budge on this with any carrier and is part of the reason it took so long for it Verizon to carry it.

 

[Thom]

Married with that is my assumption that the Razr was a marketing ploy to see how much iPhone-like stuff (the old) Motorola could get away with. Maybe there is still hope for future Motorola devices on Verizon.

I always thought the Verizon logo on my Bionic was dumb. Beyond dumb was the fact that I paid $300 up front for something that has an NFL-anything in it that I can't legally remove.

... Thom

 

[dautley]

Married with that is my assumption that the Razr was a marketing ploy to see how much iPhone-like stuff (the old) Motorola could get away with. Maybe there is still hope for future Motorola devices on Verizon.

I always thought the Verizon logo on my Bionic was dumb. Beyond dumb was the fact that I paid $300 up front for something that has an NFL-anything in it that I can't legally remove.

... Thom

At least when we get ICS you'll be able to freeze NFL Network and the Verizon logo's nothing a Brillo Pad won't take care of!

 

[PowerBomb]

Kind of reminds me how the original point of paid cable TV was not to have commercials. If bloatware really started out just as a way to encourage people to use apps, it sure has turned into a monster.

 

[Thom]

Pre-installed software ... that was then ... this is now ... it seemed like a good idea at the time ... I bet no one ever envisioned the sheer number of different Android models.

They have to stop. It is not a question of stopping or not. They have to stop.

("that was then ... this is now" is a quote from my ex-wife.)

... Thom

 

[Yeltnerb]

While I don't have or have ever had a iPhone, it is my understanding that there is no Verizon bloat or even a Verizon logo on any iPhone, Apple to their credit refused to budge on this with any carrier and is part of the reason it took so long for it Verizon to carry it.

Partly true, folklore has it that Steve Jobs wanted Verizon as the launch carrier but couldn't come to an agreement with him. When he went to ATT it turned out that they were game, had a GSM network (so he didn't have to make other devices for overseas) and were willing to take the terms from Apple. One of the terms was that ATT would be exclusive for 5 years in the US (later changed).

Sadly the ATT network in the South Bay (Mt View, Cupertino San Jose) and the Pennisula (Los Altos and Palo Alto) really, really sucked at the time. Verizon (which around here grew out of GTE) has always had a superior network in the Bay Area (think lots of hills and Canyons) since Cellular One went to TDMA in the 90s. I have been a Verizon user since the GTE days, for me it has always been "Can I make a call" being much more important than "What phone do I have?".

Finally things like Ring Tones etc. are a huge business for the carriers. Getting customers to easily be able to purchase those sorts of things is great high margin business. In the specific case of NFL Mobile given the advertising support on TV that is a fairly high level commitment on the part of Verizon corporate and it is clearly revenue positive. All carriers/ manufacturers are going to an app store/ content sale model to boost margins so all of the add-ons are a way to drive eco system revenue.

 

[HotPepper]

Bet my phone would be 2x as fast w/o the bloatware! I can only dream it

I bet moto or google make good $ from the bloatware

 

[wildkitten]

Bet my phone would be 2x as fast w/o the bloatware! I can only dream it

I bet moto or google make good $ from the bloatware

Actually it's the carriers, Verizon, AT&T, Sprint etc that add in the bloat.

 

[dautley]

Actually it's the carriers, Verizon, AT&T, Sprint etc that add in the bloat.

Motorola added some bloat too like Motoblur, Motoactv, and Motocast. certainly not anywhere near what Verizon does but there none the less.

 

[wildkitten]

Motorola added some bloat too like Motoblur, Motoactv, and Motocast. certainly not anywhere near what Verizon does but there none the less.

That's true. I hope they don't add in a different launcher for ICS. With Google owning them, I'm hoping they won't let Moto do that.

 

[dautley]

That's true. I hope they don't add in a different launcher for ICS. With Google owning them, I'm hoping they won't let Moto do that.

Nope, stock launcher with ICS.

 

[johnlgalt]

There are some problems that have been hanging around since the first hour of release of the Bionic and well before then ...

Spoiler

The whole idea of pre-installed software (A.K.A. bloatware) was to get new users used to the idea of installing add-on apps to enhance their environment.

The method of maintaining pre-installed software for years and years was never really factored in. It was just done.

The Android system runs on a collection of hardware bases that are all slightly different as the manufacturers jockey to add bells-and-whistles to attract sales.

Verizon makes changes on the tower side that introduce problems in the software used on deployed devices and this results in some data drops in some cases and a lot of data drops in other cases.

Each of these deployed devices needs to be tweaked to correct the tower-side induced problem.

When Windows is released it is recognized that there are going to be bugs and there is a mechanism that can be run to apply incremental patches to the system to correct them without reinstalling the system.

So ... what's the basis for 98% of the messages in this forum? There is no way to patch the system other than to release a new version and make sure you have all the pre-installed software present and it is updated.

This environment needs patches and this environment needs to make all pre-installed apps optional. Updates to pre-installed apps should be distributed through Play Store and not the system OTA.

It certainly looks like a tower-side change was made the week before 5.9.905 was OTAd to everyone and there should have been a patch sent out to correct the havoc it caused. There was no way to do that and the correction was obviously included in the first ICS leak.

It is my understanding that there are no pre-installed apps included on the iPhone5 from Verizon. Is that correct?

What

 

[Thom]

That is why ICS has the disable feature that was not previously there before - so we can do this with most of the bloatware that is offered.

Actually, no, Some of the software is preinstalled and we never know anything about it - we don't have a stock ICS launcher, we have a BLURred launcher. Smart Actions, MotoPrint, MotoCast, MOG Music (Which I'm beginning to think stands for Motorola On the Go), Amazon Kindle, the Email app, the GMail app, Calculator, ...I could go on and on and on. Some of it is there from Google itself - who the hell wants a simple 2+2 calculator? I don't. Who wants MOG music? I don't. Who uses Smart Actions? I don't....

It's all a matter of the beholder - what you call bloat is what I call desperately necessary. I never use and will never use the Yahoo integration, etc. that came on this phone, but there are some things that also come with this phone by default that will be in every phone that I still won't use. The stock calculator - hell no. File manager. Then there is the stuff that Moto puts in - QuickOffice. MOG. Smart Actions. Then there is almost all of the VZW stuff (I used NFL a lot last year but this year they are charging. Oh well....)

All the apps mentioned fall into the same category.

The manufacture res can include any pre-installed apps they want but they should allow them to be deleted without having any ill affect on anything else.

Some apps call some of these pre-installed apps in the background to perform functions for the end user with the end user never knowing that the secondary apps were called.

These secondary apps should be in an untouchable group that is controlled by the manufacturer.

At first blush the File app would seem to be critical and a special case. Is it? I use the Astro app on all my phones because the File app is so marginal. Shouldn't I be able to delete the File app?

At first blush the launcher would seem to be critical and a special case. Is It? If I am using one of the many alternatives shouldn't I be able to delete the stock launcher?

ICS allows me to "freeze" some apps that I don't want without being forced to root my Bionic to do so. This is a work around and not a solution.

... Thom

 

[johnlgalt]

All the apps mentioned fall into the same category.

The manufacture res can include any pre-installed apps they want but they should allow them to be deleted without having any ill affect on anything else.

Some apps call some of these pre-installed apps in the background to perform functions for the end user with the end user never knowing that the secondary apps were called.

These secondary apps should be in an untouchable group that is controlled by the manufacturer.

At first blush the File app would seem to be critical and a special case. Is it? I use the Astro app on all my phones because the File app is so marginal. Shouldn't I be able to delete the File app?

At first blush the launcher would seem to be critical and a special case. Is It? If I am using one of the many alternatives shouldn't I be able to delete the stock launcher?

ICS allows me to "freeze" some apps that I don't want without being forced to root my Bionic to do so. This is a work around and not a solution.

... Thom

Then you're looking more for a major UI overhaul in order to allow for that to happen. The Service Providers' additional apps I think are deplorable, but no more so than the OEM's software.

I agree with your principle - but Android itself needs a redesign before this can be accomplished. Until Google provides a way for such partitioning and allowing for use of apps from multiple partitions this will probably not happen. Plus, since Android is OS, the OEMs *AND* Service providers have the right to customize them as they see fit. It's basically come down to "Don't like our addons? You're free to buy devices elsewhere / from another manufacturer."

 

[doogald]

This environment needs patches and this environment needs to make all pre-installed apps optional. Updates to pre-installed apps should be distributed through Play Store and not the system OTA.

Actually, most pre-installed apps are updated that way. They can also be updated by an OTA (which has its advantages - the updates are installed to the /system partition rather than taking up extra space in the /data partition, where all user-installed apps and data are stored.)

It is my understanding that there are no pre-installed apps included on the iPhone5 from Verizon. Is that correct?

Yes, to a point. Apple does have some pre-installed apps of their own design that cannot be removed, whether you want them or not. Clearly Apple, with its three iPhone models being sold at any given time, all with extreme popularity, has market strength with the carriers that Motorola, Samsung, HTC, LG, et. al., do not have. But that's a discussion for another thread or forum...

1. All pre-installed software is optional. Updates are distributed through Play Store and not the OTA.
2. Motorola/Verizon needs to support a mechanism to install incremental patches without a full release.

I can't help but agree, but, as I said, most of the pre-installed apps are being updated through the Play Store (the Google apps GMail, Maps, the Play Store itself, as well as the Blockbuster app, most of the Verizon VCast apps, the NFL app - all of these have Play Store updates available after you do a factory reset.)

However, a major problem is that these apps are pre-installed in the /system partition, which is not writable by the user at all. When you factory reset a phone, this area is not wiped, but the /data partition - where user apps are installed - is wiped. If the phone had these apps pre-installed there, the factory reset option would need some sort of mechanism to write the apps to the /data partition (or, perhaps, to the media area on internal storage) - but, any sort of script like that is subject to error. It is far, far easier for Verizon to specify that these apps be installed in a place where they will always reliably remain for their handful of users who may want them.

Also, I believe that ICS ad later has a mechanism to allow a user to hide, and never run, any pre-installed app - so this problem is essentially solved. Also, Google will be releasing Android OS code to more of their OEMs prior to the open-sourcing of the version with AOSP, rather than with a single partner as they co-develop a Nexus device for that release, so time to update *should be* improved going forward. In the case of Motorola, their ICS builds seem to have less Blur-ish customization compared with prior versions of Android, so, going forward, development of updates should be easier. Finally, Motorola has said that they will be releasing fewer devices going forward, something that seems to have proved true in 2012, so there will be fewer devices requiring upgrade development as time goes by. We can only hope that this will mean that getting updates will no longer take nearly a year to complete, and hopefully will happen in a matter of a couple of months rather than several.

Partly true, folklore has it that Steve Jobs wanted Verizon as the launch carrier but couldn't come to an agreement with him. When he went to ATT it turned out that they were game, had a GSM network (so he didn't have to make other devices for overseas) and were willing to take the terms from Apple.

Just to be "that guy", a minor correction: the deal was originally with Cingular Wireless, which was later bought and rebranded by AT&T. AT&T purchased the terms of the contract along with Cingular...