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Socialized health care

I never said I liked Obama's reforms
As I said, the only solution to the mass under/uncovered population and rediculous is a single tier universal system with mandatory private insurance

This requires government management of healthcare but not being directly involved (unlike the UKs Socialist system)

are you willing to shell out (through taxes and self spend) twice as much for worse Care just to fit with an idealogical viewpoint inherited from your parents?
 
shadowninty said:
I never said I liked Obama's reforms
As I said, the only solution to the mass under/uncovered population and rediculous is a single tier universal system with mandatory private insurance

This requires government management of healthcare but not being directly involved (unlike the UKs Socialist system)

are you willing to shell out (through taxes and self spend) twice as much for worse Care just to fit with an idealogical viewpoint inherited from your parents?
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My viewpoint is completely opposite of my Democrat of a mother.

I will fight day and night to prevent a single-payer system from being established in my country. Taxes in the UK and Canada are both significantly higher than those in the United States. This is where the funding for those programs comes from. Canada does have more generous programs for the poor, the elderly, and the disabled. Even if you are uninsured, you must be cared for anyway at no cost to you at public facilities in Canada. While we have something similar here, we still get to bill you for the cost of your care if you show up to an emergency room uninsured.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
This is exactly why I oppose a single-payer system. The U.S. government will half-ass it just like they half-ass Medicare. The difference is that so many people will enroll in it because it's free that quality plans from private providers won't be able to compete and we'll all be stuck with rationed care and long waits to see a doctor.
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That's perfectly fine. I simply meant to point out the fallacy in stating that the poor are taken care of. They are when compared to no care at all, but the care provided them is still largely unacceptable IMO.

FWIW, I would not be opposed to paying slightly more in taxes to give everyone GOOD healthcare. This is also coming from someone who had very little in his childhood and has a whole lot more now (and probably more still in the future - but I am willing to give some of that up because I have been there).

Much of the problem is also the ridiculous costs of treatments, procedures, and medication. Again, this is coming from someone that is soon to be a licensed doctor. A lot of the prices of procedures stem from the exorbitant costs of diagnostic tools. Many of these tools are pricey to produce, but they still cost so damn much because companies that own them can charge that much.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
My viewpoint is completely opposite of my Democrat of a mother.

I will fight day and night to prevent a single-payer system from being established in my country. Taxes in the UK and Canada are both significantly higher than those in the United States. This is where the funding for those programs comes from. Canada does have more generous programs for the poor, the elderly, and the disabled. Even if you are uninsured, you must be cared for anyway at no cost to you at public facilities in Canada. While we have something similar here, we still get to bill you for the cost of your care if you show up to an emergency room uninsured.
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so Canada and the UK do this and there healthcare spending is far far less than yours

Its been proven a universal system delivers substantial efficiencies and savings while covering more people


(this is about the eight time I've said this and it will be the last, there's no shame admitting you missed something and that you misread what I'm saying, but yeah, I give up as this is currently going nowhere)
 
shadowninty said:
so Canada and the UK do this and there healthcare spending is far far less than yours

Its been proven a universal system delivers substantial efficiencies and savings while covering more people


(this is about the eight time I've said this and it will be the last, there's no shame admitting you missed something and that you misread what I'm saying, but yeah, I give up as this is currently going nowhere)
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The percentage of their GDP that they spend on health care cannot be fully understood without looking at how high taxes are in those countries in order to support those programs. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?
 
shadowninty said:
Please Listen:
These Countries spend about half what the US does and get better results
The US "system" is a bureaucratic costly mess

Canada's government(s) actually spend less per person than US government(s)

Their taxes are higher because they keep a balanced budget and like to avoid cyclical policies
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I find that hard to believe. I mean go to the UK and based on everyone's teeth, I don't think there are even dentists there? I'd much rather have US dentists and US healthcare. You should see my teeth! :)

I get treated whenever I want right away by the best doctors and technology in the world (unlike Canada); so, your assumptions are incorrect.

I have relatives in Canada and lived there too.. so I have the best view point here.
 
jamor said:
I find that hard to believe. I mean go to the UK and based on everyone's teeth, I don't think there are even dentists there? I'd much rather have US dentists and US healthcare. You should see my teeth! :)
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So they don't value straight teeth. In nearly all cases, corrective braces are a matter of vanity, not health. I had braces too, and my teeth now look great as a result, but in my cases they are literally akin to plastic surgery. I had absolutely no medical reason to straighten my teeth, nor do most people who get them straightened.

Under your same example, one can argue that Americans don't have properly educated health professionals because so many of us are obese, when this clearly isn't the case. It's lifestyle habits, not lack of medical (or in your example dental) care.
 
lordofthereef said:
So they don't value straight teeth. In nearly all cases, corrective braces are a matter of vanity, not health. I had braces too, and my teeth now look great as a result, but in my cases they are literally akin to plastic surgery. I had absolutely no medical reason to straighten my teeth, nor do most people who get them straightened.

Under your same example, one can argue that Americans don't have properly educated health professionals because so many of us are obese, when this clearly isn't the case. It's lifestyle habits, not lack of medical (or in your example dental) care.
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Most dental plans cover braces at least partially.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
Most dental plans cover braces at least partially.
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That's not the point. Please reread what I had said. The nation might not value braces as much as we do in the US, especially for vanity reasons. I wouldn't equate crooked teeth to bad healthcare, which is what seemed to be implied.
 
Over here we see Americans valuing perfect teeth too highly.. still like every fourth girl I know wears braces.. maybe one in fifteen guys

My insurance gives money back for dentistry, the state only covered me till I was 13 (we don't have UHC in Ireland )

Most decent healthcare plans cover orthodontists, a friend goes every few weeks at no cost
 
lordofthereef said:
I personally wound't go that far. It is what it is. If you can pay for it, great. The point is that not having a perfectly straight set of teeth doesn't equate to having poor healthcare.
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I dont think you value nice teeth to highly ;)

But your right, its mostly choice, and guys often don't care ..
 
I agree with what lord is trying to get across though. Yes we all love our straight teeth. However, if the government paid for welfare braces, I would be furious. You're not going to die because you have buck teeth. Braces are a luxury, not necessity.

I'd be fine with socialized health care give people the coverage on cavities or something that actually needs to be treated, but definately not braces.
 
ParishL31 said:
I agree with what lord is trying to get across though. Yes we all love our straight teeth. However, if the government paid for welfare braces, I would be furious. You're not going to die because you have buck teeth. Braces are a luxury, not necessity.

I'd be fine with socialized health care give people the coverage on cavities or something that actually needs to be treated, but definately not braces.
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The most I'd be comfortable handing out is life saving care in a medical emergency.
 
prevention is better than the cure
cheaper too


but hell who cares about the cost so long as I can have my fear based idealogy :rolleyes:
 
My experience with the health care system in Canada is rather different than the maker of that video. I'm in Vancouver. Not sure how much of a difference that makes. I've made a number of hospital visits over the years as a result of various sports injuries I have suffered. I have waited anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours depending on how busy the hospital is.

The triage is to determine the seriousness of the injury or illness you have. Someone seriously or critically injured is going to get treatment ahead of a minor sprain. If there are some bad injuries taken there, you'll simply have to wait if you have a minor injury.

I personally have a family doctor. Generally, if you need to see a specialist, you have to get a referral from a doctor. The same goes for various blood tests. You don't just walk in and ask for a blood test or any other type of test. A doctor will have to determine whether or not you need any sort of tests before you can take them. I find it rather unusual that someone would just want to do a bunch of tests. That would seem wasteful to me. The tests is paid for by the government, so to prevent someone from just getting these tests done every week, a doctor needs to determine if you need it first.

I have personally never used a walk-in clinic. My father has a few times. I don't know the details of his experience, but he didn't complain and it sounded to me to be a decent alternative if he cannot see his family doctor.

My doctor is not open 7/24. He is closed on some days. Generally, if I get a cold or a flu, it isn't such a serious condition that I need to see someone right away. If I have to wait a day or two, it's no big deal for me. If it is a more serious issue that cannot, I would have gone to the hospital instead. It would have to be pretty serious or urgent before I would do that.

The video is obviously biased. My impression is that he showed only the worse possible experience or comments by people. I have never needed medical care in Quebec before. In Canada, the provinces manage the medical system. It is quite likely that the quality of health care will vary from province to province. I'm sure that you can find horror stories of health care experiences in other countries with other systems as well.

Wait times have been a health care issue in this country. There have been political promises to shorten the health care wait times over the years. As far as I know, you may have to wait, but the system tries to ensure that any wait will not compromise your health and safety. If a procedure needs to be performed, there have been instances where the patient is sent to the U.S. for the procedure and the Canadian health care system pays for it.
 
Stuntman said:
My experience with the health care system in Canada is rather different than the maker of that video. I'm in Vancouver. Not sure how much of a difference that makes. I've made a number of hospital visits over the years as a result of various sports injuries I have suffered. I have waited anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours depending on how busy the hospital is.

The triage is to determine the seriousness of the injury or illness you have. Someone seriously or critically injured is going to get treatment ahead of a minor sprain. If there are some bad injuries taken there, you'll simply have to wait if you have a minor injury.

I personally have a family doctor. Generally, if you need to see a specialist, you have to get a referral from a doctor. The same goes for various blood tests. You don't just walk in and ask for a blood test or any other type of test. A doctor will have to determine whether or not you need any sort of tests before you can take them. I find it rather unusual that someone would just want to do a bunch of tests. That would seem wasteful to me. The tests is paid for by the government, so to prevent someone from just getting these tests done every week, a doctor needs to determine if you need it first.

I have personally never used a walk-in clinic. My father has a few times. I don't know the details of his experience, but he didn't complain and it sounded to me to be a decent alternative if he cannot see his family doctor.

My doctor is not open 7/24. He is closed on some days. Generally, if I get a cold or a flu, it isn't such a serious condition that I need to see someone right away. If I have to wait a day or two, it's no big deal for me. If it is a more serious issue that cannot, I would have gone to the hospital instead. It would have to be pretty serious or urgent before I would do that.

The video is obviously biased. My impression is that he showed only the worse possible experience or comments by people. I have never needed medical care in Quebec before. In Canada, the provinces manage the medical system. It is quite likely that the quality of health care will vary from province to province. I'm sure that you can find horror stories of health care experiences in other countries with other systems as well.

Wait times have been a health care issue in this country. There have been political promises to shorten the health care wait times over the years. As far as I know, you may have to wait, but the system tries to ensure that any wait will not compromise your health and safety. If a procedure needs to be performed, there have been instances where the patient is sent to the U.S. for the procedure and the Canadian health care system pays for it.
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In the States, you can have any tests done you want because doctors make money off of each test that they perform. They have an incentive to provide an excellent standard of care, since we are free to choose what doctor to spend our hard-earned money on. That includes keeping wait times to a minimum and being open as often as possible. People consider these factors when shopping around for a doctor here. The fact that Canada is sending patients here speaks volumes about the quality of their system compared to ours.
 
FreakyLocz14 said:
In the States, you can have any tests done you want because doctors make money off of each test that they perform. They have an incentive to provide an excellent standard of care, since we are free to choose what doctor to spend our hard-earned money on.
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You are free to choose your family doctor here in Canada as well. Which ever doctor you choose will get paid by the government. I'm not sure how specialists work. I never asked for alternatives to the one I was referred to. It's rare that I need to see one. I know that you can choose your psychiatrist and which ever one you choose to see will get paid for each patient. The good doctors will get more patients and will get paid more.

That includes keep wait times to a minimum and being open as often as possible. People consider these factors when shopping around for a doctor here. The fact that Canada is sending patients here speaks volumes about the quality of their system compared to ours
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It definitely would be nice to be able to see my doctor any day of the week. However, I don't work 7 days a week and I wouldn't expect my doctor to as well. When he is on vacation I see a substitute doctor instead when I go to his office. I guess they could have the sub work the days my regular doctor is off. Generally at where I work, we would get paid more for working on a weekend than on a week day. The salary situation may be similar for doctors. My doctor only works a half day on Saturday and is in 4 of the weekdays. Opening extra hours and on week days may drive up the cost for family doctors. Generally, what I see my family doctor for can wait another day if it happens to be his day off. If it were something serious, I would have gone to emergency at the hospital instead.

I've only ever switched family doctors once and that is on the recommendation of my wife when we met. I do like my current doctor a bit more than my former one, but I don't think I would have a problem going back to my old one if I had to.

The situations where patients were sent to the US were to do certain procedures where facilities were not available in Canada. I cannot recall the exact procedure as it was 20 years ago when I heard it on the news. For whatever reason, the procedure cannot be performed in any facility in that patient's area and he was flown to a facility in the US, all paid for.

There is a definite cultural difference between how health care is run in Canada and the US. I had to see a doctor in the US one time and it felt weird having to pay for it.

There are private clinics in Canada where you have to pay for a doctor to see you. I personally never use them because I have already paid for the public health care through taxes. Paying extra to see a doctor isn't something that I am willing to do. The video did show a nurse telling the person where he can go to get his test done. It seemed like he could have done that.

We do have our issues with our health care system. I'm sure every country has their own issues. It appears in the US, it is an issue that is being brought to the fore front. We just had a federal election this week. I haven't followed the campaign too closely as I have already made up my mind even before the election was called. Health care did not appear to be a major issue in this election, although it was brought up. The global recession and our ability to withstand it fairly well is a bigger issue this time around.

This appears to be a major issue in the US at this time. I just think that this particular video is definitely does not give a fair depiction of the Canadian health care system. At least, my personal experience is no where near the extreme that the video shows.
 
There is one thing standing in the way of nationalized healthcare in this country...the US Constitution. There is no enumerated power granted to the federal government to allow for the spending on healthcare. Period.
 
mike114 said:
There is one thing standing in the way of nationalized healthcare in this country...the US Constitution. There is no enumerated power granted to the federal government to allow for the spending on healthcare. Period.
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i was arguing for a Universal System
Not nationalized
 
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