Tea Party Cheers For Death of Uninsured Man

[Vihzel]

No, I can't agree to that for two reasons. The first is that would mean the federal government (and probably an entire department headed up by a Czar) would have to tell a private company what to do. Second it would also mean EVERYONE'S premiums go up to pay for the outrageous medical bills. Who do you think pays for the medical bills? The health fairy? Personal health insurance is already too expensive w/o such crazy & costly requirements.

:/ What are we to do about people who get dropped from their healthcare plan because they become diagnosed with cancer? That has happened to my uncle who was diagnosed with lung cancer (who is now passed away) and to one of my closest friend's sister when she was diagnosed with cervical cancer.

It saddens me that healthcare companies are allowed to simply drop a customer when that customer becomes "too expensive".

What are the chances that person is able to get other healthcare insurance? 0% for my uncle and so far 0% for my friend's sister (she's still trying). It wasn't possible for my uncle because of the so-called pre-existing condition. Well... duh it's a pre-existing condition because his previous healthcare provider (BLUE CROSS OF CALIFORNIA... THX for your support) dropped him when got his new condition.

 

[OstrichSaK]

When the big insurance companies and big pharmaceutical companies jumped into politicians' pockets.

As I stated before, during the Nixon administration.

 

[Vihzel]

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17

At least Republicans and Democrats both know that it's wrong. Healthcare providers are evil... pure and simple.

 

[Bob Maxey]

Tea Party Crowd Cheers Letting Uninsured Die - YouTube

I'm not very familiar with the beliefs of the Tea Party. Can someone please explain this one to me? Is this just an isolated belief by the few members in the Tea Party audience or is it a belief of the Tea Party in general?

We want our government back. And no, it is not a call to arms; it is a call to the ballot box. We want less government and more personal responsibility. We do not like that out freedoms are in danger of being lost. Many of us knew better times and most of us know that regardless of our current problems, things can quickly change for the better.

When some "tea party members" were accused of holding racist signs during a Tea Party Rally, it was never proven that those bustardos were Tea Party members. As far as many on the left were concerned, we were hate filled racists.

I'll be fair and simply assume that some hate is displayed at Tea Party rallys. It is not the tea party, it is fools and morons trying to stir the pot.

Since the good is seldom reported; indeed, out position on various problems in this country is often not reported at all or taken out of context. The idea was perhaps they were planted just for the occasion.

As for the video you posted (Admittedly, did not view it) I'll simply say there is a chance that some of us cheered. That does not reflect the overall attitude of the majority of Tea Party members. We do not cheer any death so I'll call shenanigans.

We believe the same thing strong conservatives believe. We are called hateful racists just like most republicans, by many on the left that are far more hateful. Compare Air-America to Rush Limbaugh. He was never, EVER as hate filled as those on the left with a microphone in front of them.

I hope you are not an instigator, Smiley. Sadly, many such discussions are started by people who want to start a problem so I am gun shy. Not saying you are, but I often know how such discussions end up. Banned members and closed threads. I say this because it is almost always the way.

If you or others want to discuss specifics, I'll be pleased to trade Wikilinks with you, Smiley. I think we can discuss this without resorting to anger. I'm willing.

 

[Bob Maxey]

:/ What are we to do about people who get dropped from their healthcare plan because they become diagnosed with cancer? That has happened to my uncle who was diagnosed with lung cancer (who is now passed away) and to one of my closest friend's sister when she was diagnosed with cervical cancer.

It is a sad story and it needs to stop. Your story about your uncle is terrible. Not unique, and that is also very sad. This is why we need reform and stricter laws that make insurance firms honor their commitments.

 

[OstrichSaK]

:/ What are we to do about people who get dropped from their healthcare plan because they become diagnosed with cancer? That has happened to my uncle who was diagnosed with lung cancer (who is now passed away) and to one of my closest friend's sister when she was diagnosed with cervical cancer.

I don't know but when my mom figures it out I'll let you know.

The problem isn't the insurance companies, it's health care costs. Without health care reform it doesn't matter because even those insured are losing everything they own. Ask me how I know.

Helping people is nice. But when you help people for decades & take from others to do it you create a society dependant on hand outs as well as a society that is broke for give outs that aren't paid for. Sound familiar? It should. Know that these situations don't get better on their own either. They will bankrupt a society.

 

[OstrichSaK]

It is a sad story and it needs to stop. Your story about your uncle is terrible. Not unique, and that is also very sad. This is why we need reform and stricter laws that make insurance firms honor their commitments.

How is it going to stop? What's the answer? Insurance companies are a private company who's some purpose in life is to make profit. Period. If laws are created telling them how to do business it won't have the outcome you're looking for. If you pass a law that tells them they cannot drop anyone premiums will skyrocket to offset the added expense and even fewer people will be able to afford insurance to begin with. People who demand laws such as this don't understand how the whole process works. Regardless of what laws you make corporations will adjust #'s to show their shareholders a profit. They have to. You don't like it? Don't pay for insurance.

If everyone stopped carrying health insurance tomorrow health care costs would plummet because that's what the market would dictate. People would go to the general doctor with the lowest costs and ultimately they would have to lower costs to gain business. Supply v demand and free market would regulate health costs. People would think twice about going to the ER for a runny nose if the costs came out of pocket. On top of that insurance companies would once again have to work to earn your business. Lower premiums, more coverage, fewer drops... The list goes on. This idea that everyone should be forced to have insurance is completely counterintuitive and serves only to worsen the problem.

 

[RiverOfIce]

We do not cheer any death so I'll call shenanigans.

Oh give me a break. You just can't win. The whole republican party CHEERED, twice.

Perry Defends Record Of Executions In Texas - YouTube

Let has get the fact straight on this. Texas has killed 6 people that had strong evidence since their deaths, that they where innocent, 3 of those where excuted on perry's watch. The state of texas has also released 12 people off death roll for being innocent.

The coward applauded the death of 6 possibility innocent people and the state permanently ruining the life of 12 more people.

The state of texas has had 565 public officials federally convicted of corruption, from 1998-2007. Texas is number 3 in the list of the most federal convection of public officials by federal agents, behind florida and new york.

But with all of that, you have people appaudling the deaths of possibly innocent people, by the state that in number 3 in public official federal corruption convictions.

I am sorry, but going to have to call you out on that.

 

[zapjb]

The rich should pay their FAIR share of taxes. The rich, the upper 10% pay next to nothing & upper 0.1% pay nothing or receive money from the USA. The BS about them creating US jobs is sickening in it's avarice.

 

[Vihzel]

The rich should pay their FAIR share of taxes. The rich, the upper 10% pay next to nothing & upper 0.1% pay nothing or receive money from the USA. The BS about them creating US jobs is sickening in it's avarice.

You mean... the trickle down effect isn't working? I thought it was working quite well. (sarcasm)

Back to the topic:

It puzzles me how the so-called "party of life" can be so adamant on having the death penalty and supporting wars. I'm not saying that the death penalty shouldn't exist... it seems a bit comical that the "party of life" can be for wanting death of others. It seems like it should be more

Republican Party: Party of Life*

*conditional

 

[keale18]

2 words.....single payer

 

[OutofDate1980]

... I've seen it first hand and the problem isn't lack of insurance it's health care costs. ....

I somewhat agree with you, but believe we as individuals are in an asymmetrical bargaining position in regard to health care costs. I note the VA directly negotiates with pharmaceutical companies to get lower prices.

Believe a universal one payer system would bring down costs due to more equal bargaining powers and yes there will be inefficiencies, but the net will be positive.

I believe there is a role for government to play, as the government is suppose to be us.

I think we all agree that we desire all to be looked after when ill, we just disagree on how to accomplish this goal.

 

[keale18]

How is it going to stop? What's the answer? Insurance companies are a private company who's some purpose in life is to make profit. Period. If laws are created telling them how to do business it won't have the outcome you're looking for. If you pass a law that tells them they cannot drop anyone premiums will skyrocket to offset the added expense and even fewer people will be able to afford insurance to begin with. People who demand laws such as this don't understand how the whole process works. Regardless of what laws you make corporations will adjust #'s to show their shareholders a profit. They have to. You don't like it? Don't pay for insurance.

If everyone stopped carrying health insurance tomorrow health care costs would plummet because that's what the market would dictate. People would go to the general doctor with the lowest costs and ultimately they would have to lower costs to gain business. Supply v demand and free market would regulate health costs. People would think twice about going to the ER for a runny nose if the costs came out of pocket. On top of that insurance companies would once again have to work to earn your business. Lower premiums, more coverage, fewer drops... The list goes on. This idea that everyone should be forced to have insurance is completely counterintuitive and serves only to worsen the problem.

Economies of scale with more people in the pool the costs go down. Thats how insurance works.

The free market utopia doesnt exist its pie in the sky. Theres no self correction. free markets left on their own will generate profits at any cost consequences be damned. Historically this has been true all of the time from cattle and railroad barons to standard oil to Microsoft.

You want free markets without government I can suggest Somalia.

 

[Sue7M3]

That really puts reality on it in a nutshell. Those formerly insured through employment, now lost, have nowhere to go unless they can afford high premiums of starting over on their own, and the shrinking "middle class" just can't go there anymore.

Health care issues rear their ugly head in these families, and guess what, the conservative Republicans who push against universal health care now have their tax dollars, our tax dollars, paying for another family's cares through assistance programs, which those Reps are also against.

Let's not forget that our tax dollars also pay for THEIR health care, which is about the best you can get. Who else, other than those that work in the medical field, can say they have a doctor on site 24/7 to tend to them?

It's also one of the reasons our economy is in the shape it's in.

No, the economy is screwed up because of good old greed-on Wall Street and in the banks. That's why they fell all over themselves to hand out subprime mortgages to anyone and everyone until everything fell apart. Greed. Companies take away jobs and send them overseas to make more profits. It's all about greed.

At what point in history did health care become inseparable from health insurance? You do know that you can get health care w/o having health insurance, right? In fact, up until a few decades ago it was the ONLY way one got health care. My how times have changed.

Sure, if you're RICH. Back in February I seriously injured my back. There was nerve damage and I was partially numb from the waist down with a constant and severe "pins and needles" feeling and pain. I could barely walk, couldn't sleep, couldn't do hardly anything. Every doctor I called refused to see me because I had no insurance, so I went to the ER because I was scared to death. They were very good to me but I was told I'd need an MRI to see exactly where the and what the damage was. Now we had just gotten our tax refund so we could pay in cash. We were flat out REFUSED. They told me "Sorry, but we only see insured patients". So I went without. I did eventually recover on my own-6 months later.

So please tell me-how do people get healthcare without insurance if they aren't rich?

No, I can't agree to that for two reasons. The first is that would mean the federal government (and probably an entire department headed up by a Czar) would have to tell a private company what to do. Second it would also mean EVERYONE'S premiums go up to pay for the outrageous medical bills. Who do you think pays for the medical bills? The health fairy? Personal health insurance is already too expensive w/o such crazy & costly requirements.

So people who get a catastrophic illness should be dropped from their insurance companies when the company decides they have cost them too much and be left on their own? Wow.

 

[TxGoat]

I've always thought the tea party to be very right leaning GOPers. Their stance is that they want government regulation on big business to be cut (that worked out well with the whole BP fiasco didn't it?) and they also believe that government shouldn't provide a safety net for the less fortunate.

What irritates me about the Tea Party in general is that they claim to be a grass roots movement of citizens that are fed up with government spending. If they had any credibility then they would've surfaced back when we went into 2 wars, when the Patriot Act was signed, and when our economy began its sink. They didn't emerge until a Democrat was elected as president, and some people think that it has more to do with that president's skin color than his policy which when you hear them scream, "Take our country back" it makes you wonder.

 

[Vihzel]

The way I see healthcare in this country right now...

A privilege for the wealthy AND healthy.

I wonder why nobody in other countries are "dying" to have US's system of healthcare.

 

[keale18]

looking at various plans again your monthly premium here in California can range from the $200-400 range and deductibles from 2500-5000 or monthly rates in the 600-900 range and low 1-250 dollar deductables. Either way is insane

 

[Gmash]

No, I can't agree to that for two reasons. The first is that would mean the federal government (and probably an entire department headed up by a Czar) would have to tell a private company what to do. Second it would also mean EVERYONE'S premiums go up to pay for the outrageous medical bills. Who do you think pays for the medical bills? The health fairy? Personal health insurance is already too expensive w/o such crazy & costly requirements.

If you are lucky enough to have insurance, you are paying for those people anyway, through higher premiums to cover the costs of all those people who get their primary care from the emergency room (the absolute most expensive place to get medical care), when a simple trip to the family doctor would have sufficed had they been covered. I know people who have gone to the ER for a toothache. (seriously)

 

[Dark Jedi]

I think what the Tea Party wants to do though is prevent you from receiving that care and letting you deal with your poor decision to not get health care and give up your life as a result of it. That way the cost isn't put anywhere else but your funeral.

If you don't have health insurance and get into a car accident and need dire medical attention... then tough luck. Go to a church and they'll help you with their advanced medical equipment and well trained surgeons. (Isn't that what Ron Paul suggested?)

So should you be able to get auto insurance after you get in to an accident to pay for damages caused by the accident? How about your house is burning. Should you be able to get on the phone and get fire insurace as his house is burning to cover damages? So why should someone who opts out of health insurance be able to get insurance just because he needs it now? How about a person be made to live with their decisions no matter how bad they are.

You can't do that with auto or homeowners insurance. So why should you be able to do this with health insurance? What's next people should get life insurance just because they die and need help with funeral costs?

 

[Frisco]

So should you be able to get auto insurance after you get in to an accident to pay for damages caused by the accident? How about your house is burning. Should you be able to get on the phone and get fire insurace as his house is burning to cover damages? So why should someone who opts out of health insurance be able to get insurance just because he needs it now? How about a person be made to live with their decisions no matter how bad they are.

You can't do that with auto or homeowners insurance. So why should you be able to do this with health insurance? What's next people should get life insurance just because they die and need help with funeral costs?

I know you're responding to a post by Vihzel, and asking him questions. I'd like to post my opinion about some people's approach to this.

I see health care from a different standpoint. Fire and auto insurance, any non-health care insurance, for that matter, is focused on providing a remedy for an occurrence, a mishap which could very well lead to a need for health care (broken bones, burns, etc).

If that medical insurance is not there, the individual's suffering very often ripples out into the community in the form of lack of productivity, even if it involves a person who does not work outside of their home: they'll need home health visits by nurses, etc, and/or hospital stays, etc, and most often they can't do the tasks or even the ADL (activities of daily living) that they were doing prior to the occurrence.

No insurance, and the burdens multiply and shift to tax payers. It's not rocket science.

That person's access to medical insurance is well needed by the community, not just by them as an injured person from their auto collision or home/apartment fire, etc, I've seen it, over and over again.

 

[nlsme]

I think what the Tea Party wants to do though is prevent you from receiving that care and letting you deal with your poor decision to not get health care and give up your life as a result of it. That way the cost isn't put anywhere else but your funeral.

If you don't have health insurance and get into a car accident and need dire medical attention... then tough luck. Go to a church and they'll help you with their advanced medical equipment and well trained surgeons. (Isn't that what Ron Paul suggested?)

So first they try to scare people with the term "death panels", then they want to offer just death without the panels....

 

[Vihzel]

So should you be able to get auto insurance after you get in to an accident to pay for damages caused by the accident? How about your house is burning. Should you be able to get on the phone and get fire insurace as his house is burning to cover damages? So why should someone who opts out of health insurance be able to get insurance just because he needs it now? How about a person be made to live with their decisions no matter how bad they are.

You can't do that with auto or homeowners insurance. So why should you be able to do this with health insurance? What's next people should get life insurance just because they die and need help with funeral costs?

My solution to this problem? Universal healthcare so there's no need to even have to think about this. If you need medical assistance in your "pursuit of life", then you will receive medical assistance. This system seems to be working out for many other countries in the Westernized world, but it also has its share of problems and could be remedied as well but it sure seems a lot better to me than what we have in place now.

I think what we need to fix first is the problem with allowing healthcare companies to rescind on their policyholders when the need comes. At least that would protect the people who want and have healthcare to feel safe in knowing that there's no possibility for them to lose it if they become diagnosed with something that will cost $10,000s or even $100,000s dollars (my uncle's case).

Another thing we can work on is annihilating the existence of pre-existing conditions when applying for healthcare so it can give healthcare providers to just deny you any insurance. This will allow the people who want healthcare insurance to actually receive healthcare insurance. But if we decide against this, then perhaps have a government option if the person is denied like from multiple healthcare insurance providers in the area. That way ALL Americans have the chance to be covered and protected.

A major thing that we must work on is malpractice lawsuits but I'm sure those are keeping healthcare costs much higher than is necessary. Doctors need to get the insurance to protect themselves and as a result, all of those high costs are passed down.

I think having a government option for those people denied from private healthcare insurance is reasonable. It's kind of like at NYU where you're automatically entered into NYU's healthcare insurance if you don't have any healthcare insurance of your own from a private institution.

 

[OstrichSaK]

No, the economy is screwed up because of good old greed-on Wall Street and in the banks. That's why they fell all over themselves to hand out subprime mortgages to anyone and everyone until everything fell apart. Greed. Companies take away jobs and send them overseas to make more profits. It's all about greed.

You'll notice that I said t was one of the reasons... not the only reason.

Sure, if you're RICH. Back in February I seriously injured my back. There was nerve damage and I was partially numb from the waist down with a constant and severe "pins and needles" feeling and pain. I could barely walk, couldn't sleep, couldn't do hardly anything. Every doctor I called refused to see me because I had no insurance, so I went to the ER because I was scared to death. They were very good to me but I was told I'd need an MRI to see exactly where the and what the damage was. Now we had just gotten our tax refund so we could pay in cash. We were flat out REFUSED. They told me "Sorry, but we only see insured patients". So I went without. I did eventually recover on my own-6 months later.

I'm not sure what to make of this story other than there have to be a lot of facts left out because there are LOTs of people who receive medical care in this country w/o a penny so if you're willing to pay cash I have a hard time believing you were turned away unless there are massive holes in your story. If there aren't I would have seaked out a second opinion. Novel idea. It has nothing to do with being rich. If you need a procedure that costs $n and you have $n in cash why in the hell would they tell you no?? You're story doesn't add up my friend.

So please tell me-how do people get healthcare without insurance if they aren't rich?

Again, this is where the problem is. Used to be if you broke your arm you got it set and taken care of for a couple grand at most. Now it's ten grand and I dare you to show me what has changed as far as supplies to offset that obscene price hike. We have to focus on getting medical costs back under control so that the average family can once again afford basic procedures with or w/o insurance. Focusing only on insurance coverage serves only to ignore the real problem which will allow the prices to continue rising to where even though everyone is insured you still lose your a$$ if you get sick. See the stat I posted about how over 70% of those who file bankruptcy due to medical expenses HAVE insurance. If your suggestion were the true solution how are all these people having to file for bankruptcy if health insurance is the answer?

So people who get a catastrophic illness should be dropped from their insurance companies when the company decides they have cost them too much and be left on their own? Wow.

I'm a realist. It's this kind of thinking that has bankrupted this nation because bleeding hearts want to give everyone everything and don't care if it gets paid for. Doesn't it bother you that the working man can't afford health insurance right now? If insurance companies aren't allowed to drop anyone ever then how do you suppose those people's procedures will get paid for? You think they'll take it out of profit even if it means losing money? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are smart enough that you don't believe a company would set out to lose money. So, who pays for it? Everyone else who is insured with that company. That means premiums sky rocket. So if SO many people can't afford to pay for it now then even fewer will be able to pay for it when they skyrocket which is even LESS people paying premiums which means that same cost for the medical bills being spread out over even fewer premiums. Is this starting to make sens to you yet? By the points you make I honestly don't believe you understand how insurance companies work. It's hard to discuss topics with people who don't even understand the basics of that which they are so adamant about. You can't just demand something without knowing how it will actually be accomplished.

 

[OstrichSaK]

My solution to this problem? Universal healthcare so there's no need to even have to think about this. If you need medical assistance in your "pursuit of life", then you will receive medical assistance. This system seems to be working out for many other countries in the Westernized world, but it also has its share of problems and could be remedied as well but it sure seems a lot better to me than what we have in place now.

I think what we need to fix first is the problem with allowing healthcare companies to rescind on their policyholders when the need comes. At least that would protect the people who want and have healthcare to feel safe in knowing that there's no possibility for them to lose it if they become diagnosed with something that will cost $10,000s or even $100,000s dollars (my uncle's case).

Another thing we can work on is annihilating the existence of pre-existing conditions when applying for healthcare so it can give healthcare providers to just deny you any insurance. This will allow the people who want healthcare insurance to actually receive healthcare insurance. But if we decide against this, then perhaps have a government option if the person is denied like from multiple healthcare insurance providers in the area. That way ALL Americans have the chance to be covered and protected.

A major thing that we must work on is malpractice lawsuits but I'm sure those are keeping healthcare costs much higher than is necessary. Doctors need to get the insurance to protect themselves and as a result, all of those high costs are passed down.

I think having a government option for those people denied from private healthcare insurance is reasonable. It's kind of like at NYU where you're automatically entered into NYU's healthcare insurance if you don't have any healthcare insurance of your own from a private institution.

What you're asking for with this list is an amount of money that I don't think you can even comprehend. Once again... WHO PAYS FOR ALL THIS?

 

[RiverOfIce]

What you're asking for with this list is an amount of money that I don't think you can even comprehend. Once again... WHO PAYS FOR ALL THIS?

We all will. If they do install universal healthcare, you will be paying a ton less then you are now.

Let us look at just obamacare, which is not universal healthcare. My insurance rates will half in 2013/2014. Medical cost will flatline.

But the most important factor, those that "abuse" the medical system, by not having insurance, getting sick, and stiffing the hospital for the bill, will now be forced to get coverage.

Which means that you will pay about 4,000 dollars a year less in taxes, care, and premiums.

If you ignore this issue, you will have to pay for those that do not pay for themselves. You are currently paying 4,000 dollars a year in taxes, care, and premiums, just to cover the uninsured.

It is your choice, do you want the uninsured to help pay for themselves, or do you wish to pick up the whole bill yourself?