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time for a lawsuit ?

M

mo_yi

Lurker
ok ... so i came across this video for iOS5 and it infuriated me

those apple creeps took the notification thing from android and are selling it under their name and it looks exactly like android

see for urselfs,
but i really think its time for google to kick some butt and file a lawsuit.

ill post the link after this (which is my first post)
 
Welcome to the fourms!

Honestly, I think it's time for fewer lawsuits.

If you want to try to protect the look of something, get a design patent. If you want to protect the implementation of something, get a patent. If you want to protect the expression of something, get a copyright.

Had that been done with notification pull-downs, then we wouldn't see the rich variations on that theme within Android - and there would have been plenty of issues for including that sort of thing in the free and open software base. So - it's out there and it is what it is.

Not everything requires lawyers to work out, and even when they do get involved, there's guarantee that will bring clarity to the situation. Because the patent system got broken in the dot com days and because the law moves slowly whereas technology does not - it seems litigation once intended to protect creative work has gone astray.

And so what if they have a notification bar? Android doesn't have much to fear. Competition is good for everyone, and if a cross-pollination of this feature helps improve it for everyone, then where's the harm in that?

Just my opinions.

PS - I'm moving this to the Lounge rather than the Lounge's Computer & IT subforum for you - clearly, this is a more general topic. :) ;)

PPS - Please be polite in your language. ;)
 
mo_yi said:
ok ... so i came across this video for iOS5 and it infuriated me

those apple creeps took the notification thing from android and are selling it under their name and it looks exactly like android

see for urselfs,
but i really think its time for google to kick some butt and file a lawsuit.

ill post the link after this (which is my first post)
Click to expand...

If Android is Open Source, why can't Apple "steal" the idea? Or is it really stealing? Hey Early, please comment, I need brain clarification and edification.

Can a developer of Brand P use something in their phone OS that comes from Android because Android is Open Source? Or must you use the OS as designed and with very little modifications? Will I be in trouble when I release BobOS and it is discovered that I used a certain look and feel component of the Android OS in my non-Android device operating system.

How do the Android/Google licence agreements address this?

And what exactly did Apple steal? I see quite a bit being made of Apple's implementation of these notifications.

Can Google sue Apple for using something that is provided for free like the Android OS?
 
Bob Maxey said:
If Android is Open Source, why can't Apple "steal" the idea? Or is it really stealing? Hey Early, please comment, I need brain clarification and edification.

Can a developer of Brand P use something in their phone OS that comes from Android because Android is Open Source? Or must you use the OS as designed and with very little modifications? Will I be in trouble when I release BobOS and it is discovered that I used a certain look and feel component of the Android OS in my non-Android device operating system.

How do the Android/Google licence agreements address this?

And what exactly did Apple steal? I see quite a bit being made of Apple's implementation of these notifications.

Can Google sue Apple for using something that is provided for free like the Android OS?
Click to expand...

The best way to understand open source is that it's free as in speech, not free as in beer.

It's possible to include open source code in commercial products, but it is WAY difficult - I know, my company does it. We add extensions to our capabilities with open source components, and the installation is optional - and we expose and follow all parts of the open source licenses that apply.

And - we contribute back to the open source community by allocating free time for staff to work on improving things in the open source code base.

This is already happening with Apple and Android - both use the open WebKit code base for their stock web browsers in iOS and Android (hence the ease with which you can change your user agent from Android to iPhone and not only will a web site accept that - things actually work when you do). And each side extends and enhances WebKit code to end up with different actual browsers - but it's done.


However for legality - it all goes down to actual implementation in code.

In this case, just by looking, I'd say that I'd be surprised if Apple used the same code base, they may instead have simply taken the idea and implemented completely in their own fashion.

And that's free as in speech, so no real theft has occurred nor licenses violated in such a case.
 
Will I be in trouble when I release BobOS and it is discovered that I used a certain look and feel component of the Android OS in my non-Android device operating system.
Click to expand...
The overall look and feel of an application can't be copyrighted. Images like the Firefox logo can be copyrighted, and names like Red Hat can be trademark. If you want to make an OS that looks like android you are free to do so. KDE used to include a theme called Redmond that copied the look of another desktop, and another theme called Baghira that looked like Aqua/OSX. If you want to use Android source code, then you'd have to agree to their license, which IIIRC is an MIT license, which basically you have to give credit to google for their source code.

ETA: Most of that is moot if you can hire a lawyer to convince a judge of your weird ideas of Intellectual Property.

Anyways, the thought of Google giving Apple a taste of their own medicine would be absolutely delightful.
 
reub2000 said:
The overall look and feel of an application can't be copyrighted. Images like the Firefox logo can be copyrighted, and names like Red Hat can be trademark. If you want to make an OS that looks like android you are free to do so. KDE used to include a theme called Redmond that copied the look of another desktop, and another theme called Baghira that looked like Aqua/OSX. If you want to use Android source code, then you'd have to agree to their license, which IIIRC is an MIT license, which basically you have to give credit to google for their source code.

Anyways, the thought of Google giving Apple a taste of their own medicine would be absolutely delightful.
Click to expand...

These days, it does not really matter what can or can't (should or should not) be done. All you need is a lawyer and lots of cash and you can drag anyone into court for "violating copyright" because your GUI looks like my GUI.

There are no shortages of 'Look and Feel' lawsuits; they are as old as the computer business. Something might not be properly protected (patents, trademarks, service marks, etc) but that does not stop the lawsuits from happening. Something might be wrongfully protected and you win when you should not win.

These combatants go to court, win their cases and then later, they loose on appeal. When Apple wins, they are the bad guys; when they loose, the world claims they should have lost when in reality, they should have won.

The current patent/trademark/copyright issues are a complex mess and something needs to be looked at.

People do not understand how it works and how it works often defies explanation. Consider that you cannot protect the title of a book or consider that I can manufacture and sell clothing with Disney characters and without permission of Disney. Before you comment, carefully consider what I said about Disney, Smiley.

Nothing is as simple as many on the net seem to think. Apple is often chided for suing or seeking injunctions in court about issues many casual observers think silly or unfair. Fact is, you must actively protect your IP, and it is not wrong to do so. and yes, some patents are issued that should not be issued.

L and F lawsuits are a serious issue because they can be used to hamper business. Sometimes I think it is less about legitimate issues and claims and more about how much cash you have to stop any competitiveness.
 
My favorite was when Lotus sued over Excel stealing their look and feel.

Forget that their first version was a wholesale ripoff of VisiCalc, no one really cared.
 
EarlyMon said:
My favorite was when Lotus sued over Excel stealing their look and feel.

Forget that their first version was a wholesale ripoff of VisiCalc, no one really cared.
Click to expand...

I dimly recall that one. I think there will be more suits over these kinds of issues.
 
Nothing is as simple as many on the net seem to think. Apple is often chided for suing or seeking injunctions in court about issues many casual observers think silly or unfair. Fact is, you must actively protect your IP, and it is not wrong to do so. and yes, some patents are issued that should not be issued.
Click to expand...
You do have to protect your Trademarks. But trademarks should ban products that could be confused for a different brand. I don't think most consumers would confuse a Samsung tablet with rounded corners for an iPad. And this isn't just about Apple, I believe that Mozilla has been overzealous in protecting their trademarks.
 
I find it hypocritical for Android users to call foul when iOS copies Android. I'm pretty sure the Apple fanboys are crying the same foul about Android copying iOS.

Also, why should you, the end user be so indignant about it? It's Google's problem, not yours. iOS having a pull-down notification bar has absolutely no bearing on how your phone performs for you.

You know what they say about imitation and flattery. It means Android was doing something right. We should be happy, not pissed.
 
novox77 said:
I find it hypocritical for Android users to call foul when iOS copies Android. I'm pretty sure the Apple fanboys are crying the same foul about Android copying iOS.

Also, why should you, the end user be so indignant about it? It's Google's problem, not yours. iOS having a pull-down notification bar has absolutely no bearing on how your phone performs for you.

You know what they say about imitation and flattery. It means Android was doing something right. We should be happy, not pissed.
Click to expand...
lol

This whole thing is a joke. I don't think anyone here is serious about suing apple.
 
reub2000 said:
You do have to protect your Trademarks. But trademarks should ban products that could be confused for a different brand. I don't think most consumers would confuse a Samsung tablet with rounded corners for an iPad. And this isn't just about Apple, I believe that Mozilla has been overzealous in protecting their trademarks.
Click to expand...

So cite an example of Mozilla and their overzealous nature. I'll bet you can, because the entire system is a mess.
 
Bob Maxey said:
So cite an example of Mozilla and their overzealous nature. I'll bet you can, because the entire system is a mess.
Click to expand...
Okay, I don't think they've gone to court, but their lawyers have sent some pretty nasty letters to those creating packages containing patched versions of firefox under the name firefox. They got into a bit of a scuffle with Debian. The whole thing is stupid.
 
I don't think it's as much that Apple "stole" the idea and should be sued, I think it's more that Apple is using this idea that Android has used since the beginning and is somehow making it seem innovative and new.
 
reub2000 said:
Okay, I don't think they've gone to court, but their lawyers have sent some pretty nasty letters to those creating packages containing patched versions of firefox under the name firefox. They got into a bit of a scuffle with Debian. The whole thing is stupid.
Click to expand...

If they are doing something improper, they should receive a letter. If not, they can seek an answer in Federal Court. If they loose, they appeal; if they win, that's it.

Before court, however, there is likely a settlement. 'Tis how it must work.

Not sure about Firefox and the issue you e-speak of, but chances are what they can and cannot do is covered in some documents or agreements somewhere.

I see lots of YouTube posters posting complete songs claiming 'Fair Use.' Clearly there are people that do not know much and even some attorneys are clueless. I know an "IP Attorney that still thinks mailing something to yourself proves ownership. It is called the Poor Man's Copyright and it is in no way valid. Too many people doing too many things and we are very confused. When the lawyers are clueless, we have a problem.

In a way, I think the Internet has created tens of thousands of "criminals." If you want to be proper and legal, you must know the copyright laws, IP issues, and other stuff that before the Internet, only those creating content for a limited market had to worry about such things.
 
mplevy said:
I don't think it's as much that Apple "stole" the idea and should be sued, I think it's more that Apple is using this idea that Android has used since the beginning and is somehow making it seem innovative and new.
Click to expand...

So the question I have is this: what did Android develop before Apple and Apple took as their own? And more to the point, did it exist somewhere else? If so, the question becomes even more difficult.

I know Apple is criticized for claiming they invented the 250 or so new ideas incorporated in iOS 5. I am not sure they made any such claims. Rather, they are saying these improvements are new to iOS 5. Which they are.
 
Not sure about Firefox and the issue you e-speak of, but chances are what they can and cannot do is covered in some documents or agreements somewhere.
Click to expand...
Wikipedia to the rescue! Linux distros take software particularly desktop environments, and distribute it with their name all over the place. Neither GNOME or KDE have complained that Fedora or OpenSUSE appear on the login screen, splash screen, or the application launcher of their desktop environment. But mess around with some fox curled up around a globe, and you'll be hearing from a lawyer.

(Edit: I'm posting this from Firefox 7.0.1. I'm just being critical of a few of their practices.)
 
novox77 said:
Also, why should you, the end user be so indignant about it? It's Google's problem, not yours. iOS having a pull-down notification bar has absolutely no bearing on how your phone performs for you.
Click to expand...
Truer words have never been said.

The day I get a big fat bonus when one of these multi-billion dollar companies sue each other is the day I start taking sides in a corporate lawsuit.
 
I was tired of hearing from all the iSheep how awesome the new notification bar in the new iOS5 is that I wanted to see it on youtube. I typed iOS5 notification bar and this video was one of the first hits.

How to Install iOS 5 on your iPhone 4 - iOS 5 Installation Tutorial - YouTube

Go to around 1:40 and listen as this fanboi touts how Apple "jacked" Google of the Android notification bar. Typical iMoron I guess. It pisses me that Apple sues and sues but when they do the copying/stealing its ok.

Rant over.
 
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