• After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.

VZN tethering discussion

Do you think they would be that sneaky to try something like that? My wife made the same point though, glad I didn't give any incriminating information.
Wouldn't, if that's what she was doing, that be considered entrapment?

Tell your wife that great minds think alike. LOL

I doubt it would be considered entrapment. I also wouldn't put it past them to try something like that. Especially if they see your data usage and consider it to be on the high side. Since you know that the call is being recorded (they do review them randomly, but ever CSR knows that the QQT listens to calls) I can't imagine a rep saying anything that goes against Verizon policy like that when they know they can get caught. It is always a possibility though.


Sure it is, well until you get caught anyway. ;)

The word "caught" is the tell. If you aren't doing anything wrong then there is nothing for anyone to "catch" you doing. It doesn't matter if you are referring to legal, moral or something your mother would disapprove of. If "getting caught" is on your mind then it isn't right. ;)
 
Tell your wife that great minds think alike. LOL

I doubt it would be considered entrapment. I also wouldn't put it past them to try something like that. Especially if they see your data usage and consider it to be on the high side. Since you know that the call is being recorded (they do review them randomly, but ever CSR knows that the QQT listens to calls) I can't imagine a rep saying anything that goes against Verizon policy like that when they know they can get caught. It is always a possibility though.




The word "caught" is the tell. If you aren't doing anything wrong then there is nothing for anyone to "catch" you doing. It doesn't matter if you are referring to legal, moral or something your mother would disapprove of. If "getting caught" is on your mind then it isn't right. ;)


I ain't gonna lie and say I never do it on my X, and the way I always justified it to myself was, well I'm paying out the ass already for phone usage and data already. VZW rates are so high, might as well make the best use of it, with certain apps that totally mask data usage. They didn't, and still don't offer a good package for tether usage for 3G devices, they are out of their minds if I'm gonna pay $30 a month for 2 gigs, ridiculous.

But, I am about to upgrade to the Nexus, they do offer a plan that is worth it, unlimited tether for $30 a month. Yes, when I upgrade, I will gladly fork out the extra dough, not until though.
 
This tethering thing in US is incredible...I wonder why here in Europe rules are much easier.

In the US the entire wireless market is set up vastly different from other countries. In some ways good in other ways bad. It would be great to see a combination of the two different ways of doing business, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

I ain't gonna lie and say I never do it on my X, and the way I always justified it to myself was, well I'm paying out the ass already for phone usage and data already. VZW rates are so high, might as well make the best use of it, with certain apps that totally mask data usage. They didn't, and still don't offer a good package for tether usage for 3G devices, they are out of their minds if I'm gonna pay $30 a month for 2 gigs, ridiculous.

But, I am about to upgrade to the Nexus, they do offer a plan that is worth it, unlimited tether for $30 a month. Yes, when I upgrade, I will gladly fork out the extra dough, not until though.

The unlimited tethering package is pretty good if you have a 4G connection. I may add it the next time I go out of town instead of paying the ridiculous fees that some hotels try to charge for their wifi access. Normally, I don't need tethering though. My phone works fine for mobile access and any other time I am in front of a computer connected to a network.

As far as the apps that allow for tethering, I wouldn't be too surprised if those start to disappear pretty soon.
 
The word "caught" is the tell. If you aren't doing anything wrong then there is nothing for anyone to "catch" you doing. It doesn't matter if you are referring to legal, moral or something your mother would disapprove of. If "getting caught" is on your mind then it isn't right. ;)

Agree with everything you said in the above post. Which is why I simply can't understand the logic of the other side. The only reason anyone might feel like they could get "caught" is the fear that Verizon is looking out for something they should not have the jurisdiction to look out for in the first place. It absolutely DOES matter that it's not regulated by law. In most of the examples you cited earlier, there are laws involved...smoking in public buildings, marijuana, child abuse. I wouldn't and couldn't argue for any of those for one moment because the laws are clear. This has come down to exactly what I've felt it's been all along...an ethical/moral issue with no legal backbone.

I find it troubling that many are willing to rationalize one "breach of contract" in rooting vs another in tethering if in fact the contract is the only leg left to stand on this argument. There is what is called an "unenforceable contract" and I believe that is what we have here. There are 7 elements (that I know of) to a contract:
1.) Agreement
2.) Consideration
3.) Intention
4.) Capacity
5.) Form
6.) Consent
7.) Legality

The one I'm concerned with is legality which described for the purpose of contracts means "the purpose of the agreement must not be illegal or contrary to public policy". And therein lies the problem with the contract vzw has in place. And I also think it's why they haven't pursued tethering from a legal standpoint, because they know they are wrong. Or if not wrong, they cannot be proved right. And even more frightening to them, if they make the monetary commitment to pursue this in order to set a precedent, they may well LOSE. So they have decided to be renegades and make their own rules contrary to the law of the land and hope people just kinda go for it. Some have and some have not. People certainly have different views of what is a moral high ground for them, that's human nature I suppose.
 
In the US the entire wireless market is set up vastly different from other countries. In some ways good in other ways bad. It would be great to see a combination of the two different ways of doing business, but I don't see that happening any time soon.



The unlimited tethering package is pretty good if you have a 4G connection. I may add it the next time I go out of town instead of paying the ridiculous fees that some hotels try to charge for their wifi access. Normally, I don't need tethering though. My phone works fine for mobile access and any other time I am in front of a computer connected to a network.

As far as the apps that allow for tethering, I wouldn't be too surprised if those start to disappear pretty soon.

As far as the apps disappearing, that's what titanium backup is for :)

But yeah, I'm a truck driver and wifi is hardly ever available to me, so I will be extremely happy when I do upgrade and get this feature added.
On a side note, I am so HAPPY tapatalk is enabled again here!! Woohoo!
 
There have been a couple of references to rooting being a TOS violation but I've found no official reference. I assume that is voids your warranty but where in the TOS does it forbid the act?
 
Can Verizon tell when someone is tethering if they are not consuming MASSIVE amounts of data? Such as tethering on a vacation sporadically to browse web. Tethering in an emergency for small amounts of time could be undetected right?
 
Agree with everything you said in the above post. Which is why I simply can't understand the logic of the other side. The only reason anyone might feel like they could get "caught" is the fear that Verizon is looking out for something they should not have the jurisdiction to look out for in the first place. It absolutely DOES matter that it's not regulated by law. In most of the examples you cited earlier, there are laws involved...smoking in public buildings, marijuana, child abuse. I wouldn't and couldn't argue for any of those for one moment because the laws are clear. This has come down to exactly what I've felt it's been all along...an ethical/moral issue with no legal backbone.

I find it troubling that many are willing to rationalize one "breach of contract" in rooting vs another in tethering if in fact the contract is the only leg left to stand on this argument. There is what is called an "unenforceable contract" and I believe that is what we have here. There are 7 elements (that I know of) to a contract:
1.) Agreement
2.) Consideration
3.) Intention
4.) Capacity
5.) Form
6.) Consent
7.) Legality

The one I'm concerned with is legality which described for the purpose of contracts means "the purpose of the agreement must not be illegal or contrary to public policy". And therein lies the problem with the contract vzw has in place. And I also think it's why they haven't pursued tethering from a legal standpoint, because they know they are wrong. Or if not wrong, they cannot be proved right. And even more frightening to them, if they make the monetary commitment to pursue this in order to set a precedent, they may well LOSE. So they have decided to be renegades and make their own rules contrary to the law of the land and hope people just kinda go for it. Some have and some have not. People certainly have different views of what is a moral high ground for them, that's human nature I suppose.

The reason I used the specific examples that I did has to do with the fact that at one point there were no laws governing the activities. There was nothing in legal terms that said you couldn't beat your kids while smoking marijuana or a cigarette in a public building. I also chose those examples along with the P2P example because the laws were set in place to put a stop to them. Now, were they put into place because of morality? Some of them were. Others were put into place because of concerns to the general public. If you look at it, most laws are put into effect for ethical/moral reasons (marijuana, child abuse, etc.) and others are there because they effect someone's monetary bottom line (MP3 downloading). It doesn't change the fact that there are laws now and at some point in time they were none.

Rooting is not a breach in contract and saying that is not a rationalization. It has gone through the courts and has been ruled upon. This is one of the reasons you can't really get in trouble for doing it, beyond the voided warranty. You own the phone and can use it as an anchor for a boat if that is what you chose to do with it.

Whether Verizon's contract is considered unenforceable or not isn't for me to decide. I'm not a lawyer and I've never played one on TV. If you want to take it into the legal system and see what happens, that would be up to you. Verizon is not the only carrier that has this policy though. Just about every carrier out there has a tethering policy. Some allow for it with a separate plan and other state that tethering is not ok at all.

Trying to say that being able to tether without compensation to the carrier is "contrary to public policy" is a pretty hard sell. There is nothing in public policy that says you should be able to tether from your phone to begin with let alone for free.

With regards to TOS in general, you may think that there is no legal issue with violating it, but there have been cases where violating a websites TOS has resulted in convictions on charges of computer hacking. That was on a simple social website and the charges were brought about due to a fake profile that was created. So just because you don't think a contract is enforceable doesn't make it so.

In the end, you may see it as an ethical or moral argument, but it is what it is. I have no idea about your ethics or morals so I won't really argue that. The fact is that there is a contract set in place just like there are rules on this forum. You agreed to that contract when you signed it, just like you agreed to the rules of this forum when you signed up. Violating the terms of that contract by bypassing the agreed upon tethering package violates the terms of that contract. While there aren't any laws on the books that say you can or can't do that there are plenty of contract laws out there. As you say, you don't think the contract will hold up in court, but personally I'm not willing to put that to the test and neither is the owner of this forum.

When it is all said and done, brighter legal minds than you or I will probably decide this one day. How it will turn out is anyone's guess. When the legal smoke clears then the forum policy may change, until then the discussion is still off limits per the forum rules.
 
There have been a couple of references to rooting being a TOS violation but I've found no official reference. I assume that is voids your warranty but where in the TOS does it forbid the act?

It isn't in there as far as I know. I'm not sure where the argument comes from. There may have been something about it in the past, but I know that one carrier took it to court and lost. Beyond the voided warranty I know of nothing about rooting that can get you into trouble.
 
Trying to say that being able to tether without compensation to the carrier is "contrary to public policy" is a pretty hard sell. There is nothing in public policy that says you should be able to tether from your phone to begin with let alone for free.

Like I said earlier, I am arguing there already IS compensation. So there is nothing free about it. That is the one sticking point that people on both sides of this thing can't seem to agree upon and is really the hitchpin topic I think.

When it is all said and done, brighter legal minds than you or I will probably decide this one day. How it will turn out is anyone's guess. When the legal smoke clears then the forum policy may change, until then the discussion is still off limits per the forum rules.

That is the bottom line. And I have and will continue to follow the site rules. I see that we are both galvanized in our opinions so I think this one, for me anyway, has probably run it's course. I do understand and respect your personal stance as well and I think your being a bit of a wordsmith helped me to better understand the opposing view. Although I don't agree with all of it, I do agree with some things and most important, it was a good debate which is refreshing. So thanks.
 
Like I said earlier, I am arguing there already IS compensation. So there is nothing free about it. That is the one sticking point that people on both sides of this thing can't seem to agree upon and is really the hitchpin topic I think.

I agree with you that the compensation part is the real issue. If there was no tethering policy at all or Verizon clearly stated that nobody could tether (as some carriers do) then there would be no discussion. The real debate deals with those that feel that the money they already lay out for their existing data plan should cover tethering. If there was no policy at all, I'd agree with most and say have at it. It is your data and use it how you want to. The problem as I see it is that Verizon did institute a separate plan for it.


That is the bottom line. And I have and will continue to follow the site rules. I see that we are both galvanized in our opinions so I think this one, for me anyway, has probably run it's course. I do understand and respect your personal stance as well and I think your being a bit of a wordsmith helped me to better understand the opposing view. Although I don't agree with all of it, I do agree with some things and most important, it was a good debate which is refreshing. So thanks.

I love a good debate. It is one thing that really helps people learn and grow, as long as they are open minded enough to understand and appreciate another's point of view. I do see your points and I understand many of the views expressed in this thread. See those views is one of the reasons I agreed that it should stay open. I also appreciate the compliment. It has been a fun discussion and I hope that it helps others see the different sides of the issue. Thanks.
 
I hate to keep repeating myself... but i think it is an important question: What is the difference in data/tethering protocols when using vzw native tethering vs that from a 3rd party app?

If there is no difference, then it could be called theft reasonably, maybe. If there are enough differences, hen it can naver be called theft, although it can still be a violation of contract.
 
For me, tethering is like marijuana.

Nobody has ever directly died from Marijuana. It can be used medicinally to treat an array of medical conditions.

Marijuana is a good plant/drug. But it is illegal. Why? Political reasons.

If it was, then Alcohol would be illegal since it kills millions each year and ruins millions of lives.

Tethering your own unlimited data isn't hurting anyone except a fat cat.

I enjoy both moderately.
 
For me, tethering is like marijuana.

Nobody has ever directly died from Marijuana. It can be used medicinally to treat an array of medical conditions.

Marijuana is a good plant/drug. But it is illegal. Why? Political reasons.

If it was, then Alcohol would be illegal since it kills millions each year and ruins millions of lives.

Tethering your own unlimited data isn't hurting anyone except a fat cat.

I enjoy both moderately.

People tethering unlimited could hurt other users seeing as how you can blaze through way more data on a desktop then a phone and hog bandwidth from others. Ive seen some people using 100gb etc. Now I feel like if your capped u should be able to tether for free. Because its not all u can eat. Once your done with ur 2gb or 4gb etc your done.
 
People tethering unlimited could hurt other users seeing as how you can blaze through way more data on a desktop then a phone and hog bandwidth from others. Ive seen some people using 100gb etc. Now I feel like if your capped u should be able to tether for free. Because its not all u can eat. Once your done with ur 2gb or 4gb etc your done.

And yet VZW is offering unlimited tethering to 4G devices
 
Back
Top Bottom