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Anyone boycotting the TSA scanners tomorrow?

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Your point is a good one that my system would only protect us against threats we know about and it doesn't protect us against stuff we haven't heard of yet. It just raises the question though of how to protect against stuff we haven't thought of. My system (if properly implemented) would protect us from terrorists smuggling explosives, weapons or explosives and weapons making materials on the plane in their clothing, stomachs or body cavities. But it wouldn't protect us from them doing something else that we haven't even thought of it. It wouldn't protect us if they smuggle themselves into the landing gear of a plane like that 16 yr old kid last week and they've got explosives on them. It wouldn't protect us against stuff that we haven't thought of yet though.

The thing is it's virtually impossible to be fully protected against people who are willing to kill themselves to achieve their goals. Giving up our rights to try to achieve an unachievable goal is pointless. Yet no one wants to come out and admit that we're fighting windmills here in a lot of ways. We can only go so far.
 


That's great. Unfortunately Ben Franklin died about 200 years before people started flying planes into buildings in an attempt to do as much physical, emotional and mental damage as possible.

But he knew one really crucial fact that military members for centuries have known.

The rights we have in this nation... are worth dying for.


Basically, what Ben Franklin means (and this is offensive).

These rights are worth dying for... if you would give up your rights to stay alive, then you don't deserve your rights, and you don't deserve to live.

I don't see how that's any different today than it was then.
 
CAT/CT Scans emit massive amounts of radiation and would probably triple our cancer rate.

That idea is NOT going to work.
 
I think Bob makes a good point that airline prices will go up significantly if you require bags to fly separately. If you want your bags to get to your destination at the same time you get there, then you have to fly two planes from Seattle to LA instead of one. That's gonna cost more and the airlines aren't going to eat that cost. Either it's got to be federally subsidized (everyone pays for it) or it's got to be subsidized by the passengers (flyers pay for it). In either case, the cost of flying is going to go up. So, the cost of flying to my grandparents funeral at the last minute is now $400. If they have to fly two planes, then it goes up to $800. (Granted, you don't need flight attendants on the second plane and it costs less to fly that second plane than the first one, but still seeing the cost go from $400 to $600 wouldn't be unrealistic.) The cost of everything is going to go up. Companies that fly people around for a living will push that cost off on their customers who will push that off on their customers and it will all trickle down eventually.
 
CAT/CT Scans emit massive amounts of radiation and would probably triple our cancer rate.

That idea is NOT going to work.

Have you forgotten 9/11?? Do you want to see more planes crash into buildings? Why are you supporting the terrorists? [/sarcasm]

The sad thing is that your argument makes a lot of sense, but would likely be rejected by people who would claim that it's worth it if it prevents terrorism.
 
I think Bob makes a good point that airline prices will go up significantly if you require bags to fly separately. If you want your bags to get to your destination at the same time you get there, then you have to fly two planes from Seattle to LA instead of one. That's gonna cost more and the airlines aren't going to eat that cost. Either it's got to be federally subsidized (everyone pays for it) or it's got to be subsidized by the passengers (flyers pay for it). In either case, the cost of flying is going to go up. So, the cost of flying to my grandparents funeral at the last minute is now $400. If they have to fly two planes, then it goes up to $800. (Granted, you don't need flight attendants on the second plane and it costs less to fly that second plane than the first one, but still seeing the cost go from $400 to $600 wouldn't be unrealistic.) The cost of everything is going to go up. Companies that fly people around for a living will push that cost off on their customers who will push that off on their customers and it will all trickle down eventually.

Not necessarily.

For one thing, once the planes are modified, they are carrying more people per flight.

Secondly, they will also have more room to carry items for shipping Freight.

You may not know, but airlines ship freight like UPS and FedEx, and it's immensely profitable for them.


So, yes at first glance, this would seem to be the case, but on further inspection, that's not accurate.
 
Your point is a good one that my system would only protect us against threats we know about and it doesn't protect us against stuff we haven't heard of yet. It just raises the question though of how to protect against stuff we haven't thought of.

And there's a problem - airport security seems to be geared towards what normal people like us might buy into. It goes back to my post earlier - our planners in this area are fighting yesterday's war.

Within a few months after 9/11, a few defense security guys were interviewed on TV (pbs? nightline? can't recall). One of them was so angry he couldn't see straight. He detailed some 6 or so threats that in his opinion common sense dictated should be stopped, so as to make our security not obviously laughable. And to hear him talk, they all sounded like common sense - I'd already spotted 3 of them myself. The interviewer asked if he knew, why was he detailing his interview instead of telling someone - answer: he'd already told everyone in the establish and was dismissed over political reasons and - get this - because he might people ideas. I wrote down the list and it took them several months before heeding his warnings.

In one of our cities, TSA has a big board of the weapons they've confiscated since 9/11 using their new security methods. There were ugly knives and pistols of every kind. All stuff the old scanners caught magnetically.

As big a threat as terrorist - idiots and the mentally deranged.

In the decade before 9/11, we lost a domestic flight because a loony toon smuggled a .38 on to a plane and shot the flight crew. We beefed up security and scanners for that - as well we should have, that should've been caught by existing scanners.

But it didn't kill thousands of people, so the media and congress let it slide.

I'd say a few things we do to improve for tomorrow's threat: 1) put the DoD and DOE in the loop - there are people who have the resources and organizational experience to think of tomorrow war and tomorrow's security needs; de-politicize airport security, and make it a matter of defense security, not a new branch of law enforcement; 2) synchronize our passenger defense and airport security with our counterparts in foreign countries.

The thing is it's virtually impossible to be fully protected against people who are willing to kill themselves to achieve their goals. Giving up our rights to try to achieve an unachievable goal is pointless. Yet no one wants to come out and admit that we're fighting windmills here in a lot of ways. We can only go so far.

Airport security is very much like our defense establishment was at the fall of the Berlin wall.

It had already occurred to the defense community back then that we were heavy with force-on-force capability for conflict with a like foe - but we were unprepared for guerrilla warfare. We were hoping we were wrong and that the next threat wouldn't be small, agile and lower-tech. We learned quickly that that wish wasn't saving us, and a lot of work went into re-thinking our planning and training for the military.

TSA isn't thinking in those terms yet - they're thinking in terms of show and big budget, not in terms of small foe effectiveness.

When I followed the matter of congress turning away in modesty while TSA demonstrated how to grope a woman's boobs, and then turned around and said carry on - I was reminded of every time Westmoreland and his kind put one over on LBJ.

When civilian authority turns a blind eye, you'll get the foxes guarding the henhouse, every single time.

Here's a solution in counterpoint to your hypothetical. Drop the high tech. Go back to magnetic scanners and chemical sniffers; raise the price of every ticket by 1/2, use the surplus to put a uniformed judo expert with a machine gun or taser in each aisle seat.

Here's the problem with that plan - it's utopian and designed by a non-expert.
 
The problem with your solution is that we end up in a virtual police state where we have armed guards escorting us around. Freedom is slavery. Your solution would probably work as well as mine and probably better. It would definitely be cheaper, but I don't know if it's any less intrusive than my solution.

Dang. Boss wants me to go to a client site. More later.
 
The problem with your solution is that we end up in a virtual police state where we have armed guards escorting us around. Freedom is slavery. Your solution would probably work as well as mine and probably better. It would definitely be cheaper, but I don't know if it's any less intrusive than my solution.

One of my points was that my solution was no solution - it looks good on paper - but it's utopian, so its holes are apparent when you stand back and just look at it.

Another one was that when taken in isolation, yeah, it does look better than yours - cheaper, more effective - except when you consider it's utopian.

And the overarching point - it was designed by a non-expert engaging in utopian thinking - me.

And that's what I'm claiming TSA thought is.

I think we're at the point of saying the same thing in different ways.
 
The problem is there's no magic bullet. Let's say I'm a terrorist. You know I would love to crash planes into buildings. So you completely lock down security there. There's no way I can get on a plane with any sort of weapon. So maybe I sneak onto the airfield like the 16 yr old kid did and get explosives on a plane that way. You respond by locking down airfields so that can't happen. Then I target trains. Maybe you're proactive so you completely protect trains, subways and major roadways. You figure my next target might be large concerts and sporting events so you implement security procedures that are 100% effective in those situations. Fine. I'm gonna get a hummer, load it with explosives and drive it into a Wal-mart or a shopping mall. The thing is no matter what you lock down, I'm going to find some way to kill you if I don't mind killing myself in the process. Basically the only way you'd be protected would be to have some sort of police state where you have soldiers on every corner who are authorized to shoot on sight anyone who looks suspicious without warning. If I'm a terrorist and you confront me for acting suspicious I might blow myself up. So, you'll shoot me just for being suspicious and figure out if I had anything to hide later. Then we'd be very close to being 100% protected. Until I joined the military anyway.............

But all of this is justified because we don't want another 9/11 do we? Do we want ourselves open to a terrorist attack? No we don't. We MUST prevent this at all costs.

This is why it drives me bat crazy when people bring out the 9/11 drum and beat on it in the name of justifying yet another trampling of people's rights.
 
The problem is there's no magic bullet.

Godfather II, '74 -

If anything in this life is certain, if history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone.

Sorry to resort to a movie quote - but you're describing what one determined combatant can do. They're often the hardest to stop.

They think in terms of targets and insertion - not in terms of conventional use of an area or its resources.
 
Godfather II, '74 -



Sorry to resort to a movie quote - but you're describing what one determined combatant can do. They're often the hardest to stop.

They think in terms of targets and insertion - not in terms of conventional use of an area or its resources.

They also don't think in terms of personal survival. Conventional security methods are based on the premise that people don't want to kill themselves to achieve their goals. Posting an armed guard at a store is great security. If you come in with a gun, the guard will shoot you. This prevents you from coming in with a gun. If you don't care if the guard shoots you or not, the fact that he's there prevents absolutely nothing.
 
All of the founding fathers did - before the advent of nuclear war.

So, am I understanding correctly that your position is that we dispense with the wisdom of the founding fathers because their ideas are outdated and outmoded?

I'm not saying they should be completely ignored, however, we have to make a compromise somewhere.

Hey Sweet Chaos . . . You know I love you, but you need to read about the founding of this country and learn the true meaning of sacrifice. By NO MEANS AT ALL was the founding easy or simple. Those times were tough and what the fathers started took great effort and sacrifice.

Bob Maxey

I love you, too, and I have no doubt that our founding fathers were much stronger and wiser than myself. My point again, is that there has to be a compromise somewhere.

This is a huge matter of opinion, because in my opinion, the scanners are not that big of a deal. The person that sees the images is in a room where they cannot see my face and will never see who I am. As long as there are no more issues of images being leaked, nothing will ever link myself to my scanner image. If my image DOES get leaked, the chance that someone I know or will ever meet in my life sees the images is so slim that the idea really doesn't bother me. I know that some people feel differently and that is where this is such a problem. In my opinion, going through these scanners is a good compromise between liberty and safety. Obviously a lot of people do not agree, and because of that reason this issue will NEVER be resolved. I will never be able to convince people like A.Nonymous that these are good, and he will never be able to convince me that they are not. That's what makes our country who it is.
 
I'm not saying they should be completely ignored, however, we have to make a compromise somewhere.

Why, when doing so only makes you feel safer, and does not, in fact, make you safer?

Why compromise an important principle for the sake of feeling better?

I understand that you believe heightened airport security is better.

I don't advocate throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I do advocate understanding that what you believe is true about your TSA security today - is not true.

You're not safer - even though you feel safer.

I'll agree to disagree - but I can't agree to compromise our most basic political precepts so people can feel good.

Several of us are using specifics - such as scanners, or searches - to illustrate this overall point to you:

You are not safer.

If you don't wish to believe that after what you've read and what you've come to understand, that's fine.

Come out and say you don't believe it.

My impression from your posts is that we're unhappy to compromise when we're safer now.

We're not safer now.

Can't make my position clearer - not safer.

Not even on the right road to safer.

Hope this clarifies our mutual understanding!
 
Have you forgotten 9/11?? Do you want to see more planes crash into buildings? Why are you supporting the terrorists? [/sarcasm]

The sad thing is that your argument makes a lot of sense, but would likely be rejected by people who would claim that it's worth it if it prevents terrorism.


Oh I seeee. You were playing devils advocate. I thought you were serious lol.
 
Actually, unless there is a law that you know of, you CAN fine them that amount of money per item. Extreme deterrent. And let me tell you, if you give them the incentive to do it, they WILL make sure every piece of luggage arrives on time.




You lack much in the way of imagination don't you.

Several things would happen.

1) About a third of existing planes would be converted into passenger only planes. This means that the planes would be re-engineered so that the cargo holds can be converted into passenger areas.

2) About a third of existing planes would be converted into luggage only planes. This means that the planes would be re-engineered so that the passenger areas can be converted into cargo areas.

3) Airlines would contract with Fedex and UPS. This means that Fed Ex and UPS would be paid to include luggage in their shipments, but also Fed Ex and UPS would be paying airlines to include their packages on the Airlines cargo flights.

The frequency of flights would go down, but the cost... it would go up a little bit... but I'd rather give up money for safety rather than rights.



CT imagers cost $140K +... Interesting enough, so do the backscatter imagers that the TSA is using.

MRI's are the scanners that have a problem with metal, not CT scans.



It is warranted to give some weight to a person's nation of origin, but it would be a mistake to significantly over focus on one nationality.



Putting your hands on a persons sex organs without probable cause is unreasonable.



While it is obvious that your thinking cap is shorted... you will notice my statement that absolute security is an impossibility.

Making everyone strip nude, submit to a CT scan and fly without any carry on or luggage is the only way to be completely safe.

Re-read what I suggested, read my responses to your criticisms, and make sure you have your thinking cap on, it should make more sense to you this time through.

I honestly do have an imagination. Just found the proverbial pot of gold using my little brain. Another story for another day.

I am not an airline industry expert and I do not know how many planes a typical airlines owns and operates, but if you think they will sacrifice the chance to sell tickets to people for a forced mandate that they ship luggage only in one third of their aircraft, you are ever so silly. What do they do? Charge three hundred or four hundred dollars more per ticket to make up for lost revenue? You really thing passengers will tolerate hugely expensive tickets? No, is the answer.

Perhaps you are on to something with FedEx or UPS handling shipping of baggage. BTW, thanks for clarification, you are correct, it is MRI scanners, not CT scanners. Apparently, (and from a quick Google check) CT scanners are becoming of great concern to doctors. They seem to be warning patients of the potential risks, like cancer from increased use. According to a Time article, so who knows if it is accurate?

I seriously doubt if the FDA will allow these scanners to be used on a non-medical basic, and every few weeks by the same person. IE, business travelers. The FDA would need to rule for the use of such medical devices and one can imagine the horror stories that would appear if these devices were put into place and made mandatory.

So forget the scanners, it isn
 
So what happens when the next big thing is a car bomb into a building?

Then after that is every car driving down the road going to be subject to random pull over and searches for such material?

The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. Millions of people die from so many things every year in the US. I don't see people stopping the sale of cigarettes, or putting a limit on how fast your car can drive.

Why the hell is the Airport the be all end all? I'm so confused. It's very sad.

I think it's just a gateway to more control over citizens. It's going to be a domino effect and I'll be way the hell and gone before that happens!

I have access to Canada, Britain, and Italy.

I love the US don't get me wrong - but if this visibly snowballs - why would anyone want to stay around for it?
 
So what happens when the next big thing is a car bomb into a building?

Then after that is every car driving down the road going to be subject to random pull over and searches for such material?

It's already been a big thing.

We didn't do that for the nutzos in OKC - and we didn't do it when that van fizzled on the first WTC attempt.

Terrorism and Washington's response to it has a one in common with comedy:

Timing is everything.
 
I'm not saying they should be completely ignored, however, we have to make a compromise somewhere.



I love you, too, and I have no doubt that our founding fathers were much stronger and wiser than myself. My point again, is that there has to be a compromise somewhere.

This is a huge matter of opinion, because in my opinion, the scanners are not that big of a deal. The person that sees the images is in a room where they cannot see my face and will never see who I am. As long as there are no more issues of images being leaked, nothing will ever link myself to my scanner image. If my image DOES get leaked, the chance that someone I know or will ever meet in my life sees the images is so slim that the idea really doesn't bother me. I know that some people feel differently and that is where this is such a problem. In my opinion, going through these scanners is a good compromise between liberty and safety. Obviously a lot of people do not agree, and because of that reason this issue will NEVER be resolved. I will never be able to convince people like A.Nonymous that these are good, and he will never be able to convince me that they are not. That's what makes our country who it is.

I think it is not just the scanners, but the highly invasive nature of the process from ticketing to boarding, to waiting for perhaps ten hours for the plane to take off . . .on and on. People are fed up and pissed off. They do not see the benefits to all of these hoops we must jump through, just to go over the river and through the woods to grandmother
 
So what happens when the next big thing is a car bomb into a building?

Then after that is every car driving down the road going to be subject to random pull over and searches for such material?

The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. Millions of people die from so many things every year in the US. I don't see people stopping the sale of cigarettes, or putting a limit on how fast your car can drive.

Why the hell is the Airport the be all end all? I'm so confused. It's very sad.

I think it's just a gateway to more control over citizens. It's going to be a domino effect and I'll be way the hell and gone before that happens!

I have access to Canada, Britain, and Italy.

I love the US don't get me wrong - but if this visibly snowballs - why would anyone want to stay around for it?

Why? Because we are America and if you read a little history, you will learn just how great we are at getting over a problem, moving on, and becoming stronger.

There are those in government that would love it if they controlled every aspect of our lives, cradle to grave. Nothing new there. That is what some want but not all of us think that is good. We live in a country where the only attitude expressed by certain people is what can I get for free and/or the government owes me.

I tell them, life is hard, wear a cup. OK, Dennis Miler said that.

Well, if a nut drives a car into a building, very little can be done. I do not think the government stands a chance making it legal to pull over every car. We do not have enough police and the public will not tolerate a police state. I think the republicans will eventually stop some of what is going on. Just like we stopped the ending of the Bush Tax Cuts. And we will stop lots of other things, if we are lucky. Obama is on his way out, so we will need to wait and see what happens next.

They are trying to stop cigarettes. They simply impose high taxes and apparently, it works. As for "putting a limit on how fast your car can drive" what do you suggest? Some sort of limiter that physically prevents the vehicle from reaching higher speeds? Not going to happen.

Perhaps you and the government need to worry about yourself and the American people and leave us smokers and people that like to drive fast, alone. Drive fast, get a ticket. We have a system in place. I have a fast car and I smoke. I do not drive fast because I have self-control.

Perhaps we can tax fast food, allow food stamp recipients to only buy raw ingredients and no soda, candy or ice-cream? Perhaps we can tax the bottom 40% of federal tax payers so the top 10 percent do not have to carry the country.

Here is what I suggest: vote smarter. Knowing your elected officials can help reduce these problems. Remember, we get what we deserve and that's that.

Bob Maxey
 
This is a huge matter of opinion, because in my opinion, the scanners are not that big of a deal. The person that sees the images is in a room where they cannot see my face and will never see who I am. As long as there are no more issues of images being leaked, nothing will ever link myself to my scanner image. If my image DOES get leaked, the chance that someone I know or will ever meet in my life sees the images is so slim that the idea really doesn't bother me. I know that some people feel differently and that is where this is such a problem. In my opinion, going through these scanners is a good compromise between liberty and safety. Obviously a lot of people do not agree, and because of that reason this issue will NEVER be resolved. I will never be able to convince people like A.Nonymous that these are good, and he will never be able to convince me that they are not. That's what makes our country who it is.

Again, you are completely missing my point so apparently I am epically failing to make it. I will try once more. THE SCANNERS DO NOT MAKE YOU ONE SINGLE TINY BIT SAFER. YOU ARE GIVING UP YOUR RIGHTS FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

That is my point right there in bold, all caps. If the scanners made us safer, then you could argue that a compromise could and should be made. However since it's already been demonstrated that you can easily smuggle contraband through these scanners and they are ineffective your argument is fallacious. You are then arguing that we should give up our rights for the illusion of security and not for actual security. No, you will never be able to convince me that giving up hard earned freedom and liberty for nothing at all is a good idea.

My brother told me recently had to go through one of the scanners in Las Vegas. He didn't set the metal detector off or anything, but they took him aside and told him they were going to scan him. He said the first thing the TSA agent said is, "I don't want to hear about your Bill of Rights." I'm sorry, but that is completely inexcusable customer service regardless of where you stand on the scanner issue.
 
Again, you are completely missing my point so apparently I am epically failing to make it. I will try once more. THE SCANNERS DO NOT MAKE YOU ONE SINGLE TINY BIT SAFER. YOU ARE GIVING UP YOUR RIGHTS FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I'm not missing your point. I understand what you're saying perfectly. Where we disagree is that I personally find it hard to believe that the scanners have never once found one single thing ever. I really don't believe that anyone would put all this money into the scanners (building them, installing them, and running them) if they detect NOTHING. If that's the case, then I am completely with you. However, I am hard pressed to believe that it is. I understand that people can make it through the scanners with stuff. I don't expect them to be 100% accurate.

My brother told me recently had to go through one of the scanners in Las Vegas. He didn't set the metal detector off or anything, but they took him aside and told him they were going to scan him. He said the first thing the TSA agent said is, "I don't want to hear about your Bill of Rights." I'm sorry, but that is completely inexcusable customer service regardless of where you stand on the scanner issue.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I would have been fired if I talked to a customer like that at my job. However, the attitude of TSA agents has nothing to do with the issue of the scanners.
 
I'm not missing your point. I understand what you're saying perfectly. Where we disagree is that I personally find it hard to believe that the scanners have never once found one single thing ever. I really don't believe that anyone would put all this money into the scanners (building them, installing them, and running them) if they detect NOTHING.


Then you have no idea how the lobbying industry in DC works and you haven't seen the studies and examples posted in this thread about how the scanners have failed over and over and have been proven to have failed.

If that's the case, then I am completely with you. However, I am hard pressed to believe that it is. I understand that people can make it through the scanners with stuff. I don't expect them to be 100% accurate.

Even if they're 100% accurate, they still miss 100% of the stuff they're not designed to detect and that's still a threat. They don't make us safer.
 
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