ArmageddonX
Android Expert
Check out the Thread in my Signature for a full Comparison between the phones.
http://androidforums.com/android-lo...-s2-vs-htc-evo-3d-comparison.html#post2698952
-
After 15+ years, we've made a big change: Android Forums is now Early Bird Club. Learn more here.
If Sprint released the Evo3D and SGS2 and Photon on the same day which would you pick?
- Thread starter you2
- Start date
-
- Tags
- htc evo 3d
http://androidforums.com/android-lo...-s2-vs-htc-evo-3d-comparison.html#post2698952
But to be fair you have to list both the positives and negatives. Now to be honest I don't know enough about the evo3d to list all the negatives (i.e, antenna quality; speaker quality, sound circuit (clarity), screen quality, ...
-
So I will list a few minor things in evo3d favor:
led notification light
support for 3d
-
So I will list a few minor things in evo3d favor:
led notification light
support for 3d
Ummm... don't we have to actually have 3vos in hand to know the negatives to list them?
And ArmageddonX - I take exception with this, entirely:
Cherry picking benchmarks and using the authoritative tone of "professional benchmark" - not objective, not fair.
I know it's all the rage to slag the benchmark that gives the "wrong" result but I'm a science guy by trade - and in science, we have a saying:
When your theory disagrees with the data, do not throw out the data, throw out the theory.
You have a theory that the benchmark that says the Mali is best supports your claim - and if you're infected as others are (and I can't tell if you are or not, so I say if) then you have a theory that something is wrong with the benchmark that disagrees with the theory of which gpu is better.
In any case, the mantle of "professional benchmark" is meant to show authority of facts where none exists. That's my main gripe.
If you think I'm wrong, please provide a list of unprofessional benchmarks.
Otherwise, show links to all competing benchmarks, let the users decide and the chips fall they may.
PS - this is all me personally, no mod stuff here.
And ArmageddonX - I take exception with this, entirely:
No. Please state the benchmark name and if you're at all fair, also state how it performed under stress using Smartbench.
Cherry picking benchmarks and using the authoritative tone of "professional benchmark" - not objective, not fair.
I know it's all the rage to slag the benchmark that gives the "wrong" result but I'm a science guy by trade - and in science, we have a saying:
When your theory disagrees with the data, do not throw out the data, throw out the theory.
You have a theory that the benchmark that says the Mali is best supports your claim - and if you're infected as others are (and I can't tell if you are or not, so I say if) then you have a theory that something is wrong with the benchmark that disagrees with the theory of which gpu is better.
In any case, the mantle of "professional benchmark" is meant to show authority of facts where none exists. That's my main gripe.
If you think I'm wrong, please provide a list of unprofessional benchmarks.
Otherwise, show links to all competing benchmarks, let the users decide and the chips fall they may.
PS - this is all me personally, no mod stuff here.
ArmageddonX
Android Expert
I edited it. I don't want to make waves. To be honest I had copied/pasted from the CPU section. I didn't intend to make that claim with the GPU. Also, I literally just woke up. I haven't even had my Coffee yet LOL...
However, in my personal opinion I believe the Samsung GPU will prove to be faster. Usually Samsung is really on-top of the game when it comes to mobile graphics. Time will tell...
However, in my personal opinion I believe the Samsung GPU will prove to be faster. Usually Samsung is really on-top of the game when it comes to mobile graphics. Time will tell...
While I commend your scientific approach, I will say this.
I strongly believe Tegra 2 is a [lacking] compromise from a company who is a fledgling in this arena. I used to hold the mind set that 'ohhh... they know gfx, it must be GOOD'. While this is true on desktop, not so much on portable devices. Moving past the name brand marketing hyperbole, the fact that Tegra 2 is crippled in its support for anything H.264 HD but baseline main profile is one such example, and why I am less than enthusiastic in each device that carries the Tegra 2 moniker.
For video geeks w/ the Apple mentality this will make little to no difference. But for those that can't be encumbered w/ the transcoding of 90+ percent of the HD media out there to 'portable friendly', this is a white knight, so long as one can get past the mp4/m4v container issue (as mkv is strongly preferred, imo). Still changing containers is leagues faster than re-encoding video.
I'm guessing the end difference in mobile games will be negligible despite who wins the synthetic benchmark so could really care less in that dept.
@you2:
thanks for listing those two things. I personally don't care about either, but in fairness, it's worth mentioning
EDIT: I just realized that I"m deviating... slightly! Please don't lash me EarlyMon!
Faster to the point where it will be noticeable? Because of the odd set of links I've seen, people are using Quadrant Standard to compare the SGS2 to the Sensation. While both play the videos well and load the stuff relatively close to each other, the SGS2 gets a higher score on most vids. But that's using Quadrant Standard, which the score is mostly crap anyhow.
So long as we stay mostly on-topic, who am I to kick?
And understanding these things to make the comparison to make the choice seems pretty worthy, imo.
The one thing that keeps nagging me is why the Tegra-2 did so well over others in the Flash benchmark. It suggests that something's up there they must be doing right.
The Tegra-2 is unlike the Exynos and the 8x60 in that the best it can do is SMP - not aSMP - the cores lock at the same frequency, not independent. Given the choice, that's the deal breaker for me - but no big deal, somebody had to be first to market.
What scares me about nVidia was their announcement earlier this year that one year was just too long for a mobile processor lifetime and they fully intend to develop AND deploy rapidly, more than one processor/year.
OK, well, goody for nVidia and foundaries making their chips (TSMC) - but where does that leave us? What happens to quality control when the supply chain starts changing that rapidly? How long will phone models last if the mass buying public starts to expect that sort of thing? How will Android - and the phone maker's kernel writers - respond that level of confusion? That's a recipe for support disaster in my opinion - and that's going to affect all of us.
If these three phones all released on the same day, I'd be taking a careful look at all of them. I'm biased against buying a Sammy phone, but that's personal - I don't knock their stuff one iota.
If I don't like HTC's response to the encrypted bootloader, I might be looking very, very hard at phones on launch day.
And understanding these things to make the comparison to make the choice seems pretty worthy, imo.
The one thing that keeps nagging me is why the Tegra-2 did so well over others in the Flash benchmark. It suggests that something's up there they must be doing right.
The Tegra-2 is unlike the Exynos and the 8x60 in that the best it can do is SMP - not aSMP - the cores lock at the same frequency, not independent. Given the choice, that's the deal breaker for me - but no big deal, somebody had to be first to market.
What scares me about nVidia was their announcement earlier this year that one year was just too long for a mobile processor lifetime and they fully intend to develop AND deploy rapidly, more than one processor/year.
OK, well, goody for nVidia and foundaries making their chips (TSMC) - but where does that leave us? What happens to quality control when the supply chain starts changing that rapidly? How long will phone models last if the mass buying public starts to expect that sort of thing? How will Android - and the phone maker's kernel writers - respond that level of confusion? That's a recipe for support disaster in my opinion - and that's going to affect all of us.
If these three phones all released on the same day, I'd be taking a careful look at all of them. I'm biased against buying a Sammy phone, but that's personal - I don't knock their stuff one iota.
If I don't like HTC's response to the encrypted bootloader, I might be looking very, very hard at phones on launch day.
ArmageddonX
Android Expert
The thing I don't like about benchmarks is that whoever is on the "losing" end of the test usually starts posting all the reasons the test is invalid and inaccurate. Whereas, had their device been proven to be the superior product they would praise the benchmark. That's just human nature though...
drexappeal
Extreme Android User
Was it confirmed by anybody on the SGS 2 forum that there's 32gb of internal storage? I just looked at the spec sheet, but wasn't sure if that was a typo or not. That's nuts and actually makes me consider the SGS 2 along with the Photon (assuming all the leaked specs make it to the production model)!
A little depends on the sanity of the software. I used a p100 for 10 years because it was 'fast' enough for my bsd box. On the other hand my windows box (games) is updated once every 3 years or so (no fix cycle; last upgrade was mostly due to transition from xp to 7).
-
I think most of the dual core coming out this year are 'fast' enough (though a few are a bit shy on memory) but I don't really know googles roadmap. Right now stuff is not horribly optimized so it is rather hard to judge if it will be 'fast enough' with ice cream or whatever follows ice cream.
-
Clearly android smartphones two generations ago were not fast enough (even when they were released). Last gen phones were boarder line for many.
-
There will always be those who want 'better' because of marketing makes them think something is missing unless they have the newest widget but for the most part if not this year; then in a year or so we will truely reach 'fast enough' for a little while.
What is more likely to drive upgrades are other features (some known to be arriving such as nfc; maybe 3d) and some not known today that suddenly take off like wildfire a year or two down the line.
-
I think most of the dual core coming out this year are 'fast' enough (though a few are a bit shy on memory) but I don't really know googles roadmap. Right now stuff is not horribly optimized so it is rather hard to judge if it will be 'fast enough' with ice cream or whatever follows ice cream.
-
Clearly android smartphones two generations ago were not fast enough (even when they were released). Last gen phones were boarder line for many.
-
There will always be those who want 'better' because of marketing makes them think something is missing unless they have the newest widget but for the most part if not this year; then in a year or so we will truely reach 'fast enough' for a little while.
What is more likely to drive upgrades are other features (some known to be arriving such as nfc; maybe 3d) and some not known today that suddenly take off like wildfire a year or two down the line.
If your response is to me, it will noticeable be when... a person loads a 720p H@L5.1 h.264 file onto a Tegra 2 device. It will skip and be unwatchable. This is the de facto standard, well... at least in nefarious places
.The technical differences are:
Baseline Profile Support only (ala Tegra 2) means:
- No CABAC entropy coding.
- No B frames
- No 8x8 transforms (DCT)
- No Weighted Prediction
I call it a regretful omission but Nvidia's marketing types may disagree (even saw one rep trying to PR this in another forum!), but I believe the engineer tasked to this department got a lashing from someone, or at least I hope!
I'm trying to find a vid example for you, but can't seem to atm. But essentially, even an iPad 1 can play back HP vid fluidly, whereas Tegra 2 (even w/ dual core cpu) can not.
This is my deal breaker, because if I'm going to have an HDMI port on my phone, it ought to be used to the A/V fullest. Shame about these devices still having 32GB microSD card limitations though... wonder if a 64GB would work.
Can you expound on that? In real world application, I presume rich flash content loads/accelerates faster on Tegra 2? If so, how much are we talking?
I take it the Sammy has aSMP? What does independent core clocking translate to in real world terms... battery life?
novox77
Leeeroy Jennnkinnns!
Well on the "other" side, if you don't like the iPhone 4, you have the following choices:
1) iPhone 4
2) iPhone 4
3) iPhone 4
nothing interesting indeed.
Good point. We're all so upset because of one little bump in the road. Perhaps We've just gotten a bit spoiled. There are at least 3 new and great options on the way for us. Things could be a lot worse!
I agree. It's why I try to be more objective with it and watch the side-by-side comparisons. Although it's hard to see frame rate being reported without being able to take a close look.
What I was hoping to get across is...is the SGS2 noticeably faster than the Sensation/E3D? And will it become significant? If it is noticeably better in displaying graphics, it will give me cause to wait. The display comparison is mostly the same, IMO, as well. Comparing the S-LCD qHD of the Sensation/E3D to the AMOLED+ of the SGS2 with a smaller resolution. Is the smaller resolution noticeably worse in day-to-day use, or is it just a movie thing? I got to go to a store and look at something with an AMOLED display, because I've only ever seen S-LCD, before my final choice. But those are two of the major deciding points for me.
Processor/GPU and how it contributes to the overall experience: On paper, this is a SGS2 win. But if it's not so significant, overall, I'll defer to other points.
Display looks and resolution: I still need to figure out if I like AMOLED.
Overall construction: I have a Moto phone now, and the thing is solid. Even though SGS2's plastic case has been shown to be damage resilient, I don't think I would have the ease of mind to hold one. I would definitely need a case or something. For example, I like the Xbox controllers over PS3's controllers, because PS3 controllers feel flimsy. So HTC is good here.
Bootloader: HTC is definitely locking theirs (I'll assume this until they announce differently). SGS2 currently is unlocked, but may change when it hits the states. And HTC may leak something to unlock their bootloader. So I'm putting this in SGS's court, and is the one thing that is conflicting me the most.
Time for release: The E3D, with any luck, win this one. The SGS2 isn't even rumored to hit Sprint any time soon. The E3D likely will. This is also another major consideration for me. I would like to get a new phone ASAP. And while Moto may bring a phone in July, I'm not sure I'd like another Moto just yet. The DX gave me a lot of headaches when I first had it. So I am largely pointed to the E3D, but I hate making a poor decision.
drexappeal
Extreme Android User
3D FFC is same MP's as the current EVO, from what I remember.
Off Topic: Noticed your username. Are you from US or Japan?...LOL. Not a lot of people know that term, but it's a term my boss (Japanese American) taught me...HAHAHA.
Moto lost relevancy [to me] after the Razr. the fact they lock down their bootloaders is icing in the cake. if they appear more durable over time, it's because nobody is really using their devices. I would say that I'm considering the 'Photon' in this comparison, but that would be a lie.
my [biased] .02.
@drexappeal: U.S. I lived in Japan 4 years.
I would say that I'm considering the 'Photon' in this comparison, but that would be a lie.my [biased] .02.
@drexappeal: U.S. I lived in Japan 4 years.
No.
You just discounted what I said with that old chestnut and I'm not having any.
The other thing is when you discount bad benchmarks and you're on the winning side, people think you're being pedantic.
You just threw out the baby with the bathwater and showed no understanding of what I said.
SMH
I did NOT open a discussion so we can share what we hate about benchmarks and whine about users.
I charged you with 1) falsely wrapping a claim in a non-existent mantle of authority by your choice of words and 2) by so doing, performing the opposite of benchmarks are intended to do: remove opinions.
For fair comparisons to work, _all_ benchmarks must be there and correlated.
Anything else is just using the benchmark to get the TMI index for your phone.
I understood from one of the European respondents in the SGS2 forum that they come in 16 and 32 GB version, but I may have misunderstood that.
ArmageddonX
Android Expert
I edited the post as soon as I noticed. I didn't mean to rock the boat. To be honest I had just woke up and sat down in front of my Laptop. I wasn't completely awake and I made a mistake. I didn't intend to copy/paste that segment next to the GPU.
You know I try to remain objective, I'm not the type to force my opinion on others. I'm certainly not the type to try to make you upset, as I have a great deal of respect for you, the other Moderator, & my fellow members on these Forums.
On-Topic; Yes the SGSII comes in 16gb and 32gb Variants. At least in Europe.
http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxys2/html/specification.html
You know I try to remain objective, I'm not the type to force my opinion on others. I'm certainly not the type to try to make you upset, as I have a great deal of respect for you, the other Moderator, & my fellow members on these Forums.
On-Topic; Yes the SGSII comes in 16gb and 32gb Variants. At least in Europe.
http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxys2/html/specification.html
drexappeal
Extreme Android User
Moto lost relevancy [to me] after the Razr. the fact they lock down their bootloaders is icing in the cake. if they appear more durable over time, it's because nobody is really using their devices.
my [biased] .02.
@drexappeal: U.S. I lived in Japan 4 years.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Moto lost its relevance after the Razr. The original Moto Droid got a lot of hype, especially in the media.
For lots of techie folks, locked bootloaders are a sin. For me personally, it's not as big a deal. Would it be nice if they re-thought doing that for any Sprint phones? Sure. Is it a "necessity" for my needs? Not really. As much as I love technology, I honestly haven't even rooted my phone yet or ventured into that yet. Coming from a Windows Mobile user, that's saying a lot because I was all about customization when I had Windows Mobile.
If your response is to me, it will noticeable be when... a person loads a 720p H@L5.1 h.264 file onto a Tegra 2 device. It will skip and be unwatchable. This is the de facto standard, well... at least in nefarious places
The technical differences are:
Baseline Profile Support only (ala Tegra 2) means:
- No CABAC entropy coding.
- No B frames
- No 8x8 transforms (DCT)
- No Weighted Prediction
I call it a regretful omission but Nvidia's marketing types may disagree (even saw one rep trying to PR this in another forum!), but I believe the engineer tasked to this department got a lashing from someone, or at least I hope!
I'm trying to find a vid example for you, but can't seem to atm. But essentially, even an iPad 1 can play back HP vid fluidly, whereas Tegra 2 (even w/ dual core cpu) can not.
This is my deal breaker, because if I'm going to have an HDMI port on my phone, it ought to be used to the A/V fullest. Shame about these devices still having 32GB microSD card limitations though... wonder if a 64GB would work.
Geez - that's an indictment right there. The HDTV industry has pushed software to firmware to hard chips to get things done. There's no excuse - in my opinion - to have those issues unless someone tries to save on licensing. Codec chips we don't have, but I'm sure the licenses are there to incorporate whatever you'd like from the supply chain into your SoC.
Agree - no good excuse for bad video.
I really can't expound on that - and that goes back to my gripe as a former supercomputer benchmark author - you have to know what the source code of the bench mark did (notionally is fine, you don't need to be a programmer) in order to correlate it to results in the real world.
So without that the only honest assessment I can give is: "suggests that something's up there they must be doing right."
Fanboys would scream WIN - but without the correlation to exactly those things you (and I) are asking about, they're nothing more numbers with a potentially interesting suggestion.
My bad - yes, exactly correct, the Sammy and 3vo both have dual core chips capable of asynchronous (a) symmetrical multi-processing (SMP). The SMP part is a capable and effective, but not overly advanced, form of using-more-than-one-processor operating system.
The asynchronous part means the two CPUs can run at different frequencies. As you've guessed, this can translate into better battery life, but also - if the Sammy or HTC kernel devs did their jobs properly (read: includes management support as well as skills) - then it can also translate into better performance while saving that battery.
On the materials side, the higher the frequency, the more power is lost through waste heat (as well as higher freq just requires faster power consumption).
If both cores must run at the same frequency, regardless of need, then there are three choices:
- Run both cores at the slowest required of the two - expect bad performance as one core is starved for resource
- Run both cores at the highest required of the two - expect one core to waste power
- Wing it with something in between - no one will be happy
aSMP solves that - and further allows _good_ kernel devs to exploit every aspect of task control to get better performance AND better battery life.
The published blog claims are that the SGS2 has hit both of those metrics - most excellent if true and accurate.
Sincere apologies if I've over-reacted - I just hate the gaming of benchmarks.
Does it show?
