Do you believe in God

[aiz4andy]

So what you are saying is that I have to listen to people of faith when they tell me that I am living my life wrongly, immorally and in sin and unless I change my lifestyle, accept their God and do exactly what they say, I will suffer forever in torturous pain?

And if I then tell them that I think their belief system is flawed, archaic and utter nonsense it is me who is being disrespectful? Because they were threatening me with eternal roasting out of love??!?!

OK fine. Then I am ridiculing them out of love. I want to set them free from this burden of religion they have lumbered themselves with - I want to tell them that there is probably no god, no evidence for one, and even if their god is real then he is a nasty piece of work (based on my numerous readings of the bible cover to cover - yes, including the boring bits about lineage, bible classes, confirmation classes, church school and serving at the alter as boat boy, crucifix bearer, accolyte and thurifer for many years).

I am going out on a limb to share my (non) beliefs with them, it is likely (it should be) because I care about them and what they are taught are consequences of not believing. I would be wrong to keep what I consider liberating news to myself. If you choose to believe, just do - but don't attempt to tell me I will burn in torment for eternity for caring for them.

 

[aiz4andy]

My last reply was for stainlessray by the way, Slug got in before me.

And while I somewhat agree with what Slug says, I can't help thinking that the 9/11 hijackers would have drawn comfort from that Dave Allen Quote.

 

[jamor]

I'm so confused. Did she say she was going to give out pancake mix to those who repent or something?

 

[smacky]

I said this earlier but:

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" ~ Ray Charles

If someone's dog shits on your lawn, do you take your dog over to his lawn and make him shit there? If it were any other situation, everyone that thinks they're "adults" would say "oh, that's so childish." How is this any different? If someone comes up to you and tells you your religion, or lack thereof, is wrong and flawed, that person is most likely very ignorant and a brainwashed buffoon. If you reply with an argument that is skeletally the same, are you not just as ignorant?

If someone with opposing beliefs as you comes up to and tries to feed you its beliefs, the best thing to do would be to walk away. It would be the adult thing, right? When you were younger and someone called you names, what was the teacher's and your parent's advice? Ignore them. It doesn't mean you don't take them behind a tree once recess is over. I kid.

But if it's a healthy debate, you debate. If they come out, guns-a-blazing trying to shove their beliefs down your throat, you know you're dealing with an ignorant person and so you just ignore them knowing you won't be able to communicate your ideas across because they won't listen, nor will you be able to understand theirs because it will most likely just be comments demeaning your beliefs.

 

[mrqs]

There's no "correct answer" to this one....

of course there is, just that no one can "prove" what it is

 

[Slug]

I can't help thinking that the 9/11 hijackers would have drawn comfort from that Dave Allen Quote.

On the contrary, anyone can draw comfort from it. It is an affirmation of religious tolerance, something completely at odds with the twisted interpretations often chosen by extremists to "justify" their actions.

 

[mrqs]

On the contrary, anyone can draw comfort from it. It is an affirmation of religious tolerance

anyone meaning any monotheistic believer

it doesn't take atheists or polytheists in to account

 

[aiz4andy]

I agree entirely, that is an affirmation of your own tolerance - however that is my own interpretation. Those who are blinded by extremism may draw justification from the statement. Its open to interpretation.

I think some of the content in this thread has been reduced to just how you interpret certain experiences. While all around I see religious people trying to spread their good message, to me this message is highly offensive. I don't mind what they believe - they are welcome to do so, but when they come knocking on my door, talk about their beliefs at parties, at work - and even facebook - it intrudes into my own set of values, and makes a judgement on them.

An example relatively recently was when I posted a link (via facebook) to a donation page for Doctors Without Borders. and I had a couple of messages saying they wouldn't donate any money for aid but instead they would pray for the people of Haiti.

These were people who wanted to help but were told by their pastor that money was evil (they are born again and expect a tenth of the household income a t collection time) - and their prayers would do far more good.

I have a big problem with this.

I also think there is a separate debate on exactly how tolerant or respectful atheists should be when confronted with such thinking.

I think this article more or less sums up my feelings on the matter

 

[mrqs]

I think this article more or less sums up my feelings on the matter

that's a fantastic article - i agree fully

 

[Slug]

anyone meaning any monotheistic believer

it doesn't take atheists or polytheists in to account

You take it however you want, as I get the distinct impression you're only arguing for the sake of it.

I don't need my own god to respect other's right to believe in their own. I may consider myself an aetheist, but I refuse to dictate beliefs to others. Do I believe in God? No. Should others? Yes, it's their choice.

 

[Frisco]

I don't need my own god to respect other's right to believe in their own. I may consider myself an aetheist, but I refuse to dictate beliefs to others. Do I believe in God? No. Should others? Yes, it's their choice.

+1

But it seems sad to me that those things have to be said in any discussion about something like this; isn't it obvious that many of humanity's problems are expressed via this or that group's lack of tolerance for a different group based on their spiritual beliefs or lack thereof?

Also, this poll is interesting in its very simplicity, but can't take into account the fluid, changing nature of an individual's awareness or rejection of a supreme being. I am not referring necessarily to how we all change our minds about this as we are influenced by literature, family and culture; I'm referring to our thoughts leading up to where we are at the moment we feel that we've "made up our mind" about it.

The fact that there are very intelligent, clever, educated and highly insightful people on both sides of the existence in God issue tells me something important: one way or another, it's about discovery of what makes us feel right, not about what is right.

 

[mrqs]

You take it however you want, as I get the distinct impression you're only arguing for the sake of it.

how very unperceptive of you
*edit* on further thought, what exactly should we be arguing for here if not for the sake of it? it's not like anyone's gonna convert to/from theism because of this thread

I don't need my own god to respect other's right to believe in their own. I may consider myself an aetheist, but I refuse to dictate beliefs to others.

i don't need to respect a person's belief in something to respect the person (a distinction made in that article)

(*) do i mind that someone believes in a god? not as long as that belief doesn't have any negative impact in that person's, or someone else's, life

you mention you refuse to dictate beliefs to others, but that all depends on what belief we're talking about - i'm sure you would try to talk someone out of suicide given the situation

the point being made for a few posts now is that theistic belief is being separated as something special, something to be respected, while many atheists (at least myself, aiz4andy and the writer of that article apparently) would agree that this distinction is unfair

Do I believe in God? No. Should others? Yes, it's their choice.

do i believe in a god? no. should others? no, because it's nonsense, but repeat (*)

 

[Frisco]

A post addressed to Slug, but still a post for all to see, rather than a PM, so I'll comment:

what exactly should we be arguing for here if not for the sake of it? it's not like anyone's gonna convert to/from theism because of this thread

The "sake of arguing" is likely referring to "sake of offering more combativeness than furthering a new point in the progression of the discussion."

i don't need to respect a person's belief in something to respect the person (a distinction made in that article)

Beliefs are the core of us all; I refute the ability to respect a person without respecting their beliefs, although people do put on that pretense on a regular basis; we do need to respect one anothers spiritual beliefs of acceptance or rejection of spirituality in life, including God or atheism. When we don't, we fight and when we fight in groups we have wars.

(*) do i mind that someone believes in a god? not as long as that belief doesn't have any negative impact in that person's, or someone else's, life

What perception we have of "negative impact" on that person by their beliefs is none of our business; it's when their beliefs intrude on our rights and well being that concern replaces acceptance.

you mention you refuse to dictate beliefs to others, but that all depends on what belief we're talking about - i'm sure you would try to talk someone out of suicide given the situation

That is not necessarily about a core, studied belief system but is about survival of the herd, at its basic level; we feel a sort of biological irony when we want to live as long as possible and see another person intentionally attempting to end their life.

the point being made for a few posts now is that theistic belief is being separated as something special, something to be respected, while many atheists (at least myself, aiz4andy and the writer of that article apparently) would agree that this distinction is unfair

I agree with that in that other portions of what our neighbors and other fellow human beings are about, in the complicated psychology of us all, garner just as much respect, everything from political beliefs to how to raise our kids (again, given that harm is not a core of those beliefs).

do i believe in a god? no. should others? no, because it's nonsense, but repeat (*)

All beliefs are nonsense. None of us have proof.

 

[aiz4andy]

Apart from atheism. Atheism translates as being without belief in theism. We, or at least I don't "believe there is no god", rather I "don't believe there is a god" - that is, I am without belief.

I don't rule out the possibility of there being one, I just don't see any evidence for one. I would love to see the killer argument supporting the case, but its normally just the same old story trotted out and always boils down to faith, which by its very definition is to believe something in spite of (if not because of) the lack of evidence (I think its thanks to Christopher Hitchens for that one!).

So the reason I try to speak out against religion is when I see the damage it does. I am a member of a charity (ironically run by Christians) called Hope HIV, which aims to increase chances and services and development within countries affected by HIV. These countries are mostly in Africa, and many are followers of the Catholic faith who tell them it is a sin to wear condoms,

By respecting the catholics church's belief that wearing condoms is a sin, we are condemning many people to die and suffer in agony. This also has other indirect consequences in terms of infrastructure in these developing countries.

By respecting Iranians belief that women are guilty of adultery if they are raped and should be stoned to death, you are giving this belief credence.

Belief and faith have been the reason, cause and blight on our worst atrocities in history, and continue just as much in the present day.

A Christians view of me is that I am a sinner and I will go to hell because of something somebody did hundreds of generations ago that I am now punishable for unless I accept their god as my saviour and bow down and worship him.

I honestly cannot respect this point of view.

 

[Frisco]

The faith thing is woven throughout human life, not only in matters of deity. Indeed, faith seems to be necessary to live, given that even as adults we trust and have faith in many people, strangers, entities in charge of our well being etc, such as medical professionals, teachers and utility builders and maintainers just to name a few most know little or nothing about but rely, really rely on them.

We even have faith in nature, and take for granted via that faith that everything is going to be ok without even thinking about it unless we're warned of an impending disaster. Then, once the disaster has passed, faith returns at some point and we go about our daily business.

Faith in a deity is said to be a gift from that deity by most religions, so it leaves the realm of provable reason in a way that the other things we have faith in can be clarified to the point of knowledge once we study how those things, such as electricity for our homes, come about. This includes faith in strangers who take care of us and teach our kids, etc; we can find out how they do what they do and faith mostly goes by the wayside.

But not entirely. As soon as we trust anybody for anything we are exercising faith. It's in us to have faith, and there is nothing in the workings of nature, proven by the sciences, that can dislodge some from coming to the understanding that each provable detail of any given science is proof of a design.

Designs have designers, thus faith for many who notice the design, including most scientists.

 

[bluenova]

aiz4andy, You know those arn't my views from previous discussions and there are many other Christians (including Roman Catholics) who also do not support the views you outlined so why do you continue to put us all in the same bag?

 

[Frisco]

I think that doctrines and interpretations of those rules are the big troubles in talks about faith and deity.

"Sinner," for example, is one of the most absurd notions to apply to people that has come out of religious writings and sayings.

The "we're all sinners" chant of most Christian preachers helps a bit to alleviate the judgmental, finger-pointing, rather abusive nature of it, but even that is wrecked by their insistence that everything is ok if we just let them "save" us as only they can.

The god or no god discussion often gets obfuscated by arguments having to do with church rules and their control freak doctrines.

 

[aiz4andy]

Sorry bluenova - I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking about anyone personally or even generalising.

I don't think that religious people are evil or even mean offence. I understand that them trying to share their belief with me is because they do care, as somebody has said on this thread.

But for the most part their belief is dictated to them by a religious body - and its this body that I was aiming my comments at - the people who follow that particular instruction aren't doing so of their own will but that of their groups faith.

I am also fond of the following statement, which I think explains my feelings on religions more controversial actions:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

I wasn't saying that all religious people behave this way, but trying to demonstrate the extremities of belief and its negative impact on others and why I think belief doesn't necessarily deserve respect.

I enjoyed Frisco's last response, but not sure what you meant by the last sentence. (*edit* Frisco posted again before I did so this applies to his last nut one post)

 

[judasmachine]

I just don't buy it. I feel nothing and I hear no voice and no tingles. Nothing. I don't believe people when they say they hear, feel, tingle with anything. I just get tired of hearing what I consider liars filling a void in their own lives. You are alive, the planet nurtures that life, then you die, and you nurture the planet.

BTW I never grew up Xtian, I grew up learning my dirty savage history. The Xtians came later and killed a lot of my dirty savage grandfathers.

 

[bluenova]

Sorry bluenova - I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking about anyone personally or even generalising.

Thanks, it was just the Roman Catholic comment hit a bit of a raw nerve because my wife is a confirmed Roman Catholic (because the country she is from is 99% RC). She gets very frustrated by a lot of the stuff that comes out of Rome and would love to see Women priests and disagrees with the condom thing as well for the same reasons as you.

The thing is the media only publish extremism because that is good news. Take Islam for example, there are millions of peace loving Muslims in the world that do a lot of good but you never hear about them, you only hear about the terrorist extremists.

 

[mrqs]

Beliefs are the core of us all; I refute the ability to respect a person without respecting their beliefs, although people do put on that pretense on a regular basis;

notice how i didn't use a plural in my post
i agree that respecting someone without respecting their beliefs is a contradiction
but respecting someone without respecting a belief of theirs isn't

we do need to respect one anothers spiritual beliefs of acceptance or rejection of spirituality in life, including God or atheism. When we don't, we fight and when we fight in groups we have wars.

i'd say it's not the fault of the criticism, but the short fused person not being able to handle criticism
if we applied your logic in other things, we'd still have a camp of people thinking the earth is flat and another thinking it's round; both "respecting one another's belief" and not criticising

What perception we have of "negative impact" on that person by their beliefs is none of our business; it's when their beliefs intrude on our rights and well being that concern replaces acceptance.

so when someone's evening routines include giving themselves whip slashes for every "sin" they've committed during the day, it's none of our business to intrude, because it's only our perception that this is a negative impact in their lives?

That is not necessarily about a core, studied belief system but is about survival of the herd, at its basic level; we feel a sort of biological irony when we want to live as long as possible and see another person intentionally attempting to end their life.

i could have also given an example of talking someone out of robbing a bank etc.

All beliefs are nonsense. None of us have proof.

unless being pedantic, i disagree
the burden of proof lies with the believer - i claim the existence of a pink invisible unicorn is nonsense, even tho' i can't "prove" one doesn't exist

The faith thing is woven throughout human life, not only in matters of deity. Indeed, faith seems to be necessary to live, given that even as adults we trust and have faith in many people, strangers, entities in charge of our well being etc, such as medical professionals, teachers and utility builders and maintainers just to name a few most know little or nothing about but rely, really rely on them.
[...]

difference is, the examples of everyday faith you give here are based on logical observations, unlike theistic faith, which by it's very definition lacks any proof

 

[Frisco]

..difference is, the examples of everyday faith you give here are based on logical observations, unlike theistic faith, which by it's very definition lacks any proof

I agree with a small portion of that. "Proof" is where most atheists find satisfaction in their chosen faith of their being no god, however.

We always see "unicorns" and "Santa Claus," etc brought up in this type of discussion about faith in things unseen/unproven. I've done that, I've used those analogies.

But, although interesting and fun, it's a mistaken thing to do if we're really going to try to ferret out the core or origins or significance of faith in a god, gods or creative entities.

But atheists feel like they have it made because they put the onus on believers to "prove" there is a god to believe in and back it up, erroneously, with the "we don't have to prove a negative" logic; they pretend like their belief system, the center of which is that no god exists (atheists, true atheists) needs no proof at all, even though making such a declaration as "there is no God" is quite a leap in faith, quite an unproven notion.

 

[aiz4andy]

It's not about having to prove a negative - its because it is impossible to prove a universal negative.

Unicorns, FSM's are not brought up to ridicule - they are brought up as a way to demonstrate the impossibility of proving this negative by using something ridiculous as an example.

Atheism is neither a faith or a belief, I've already explained that. I don't collect stamps - therefore my hobby is not collecting stamps?

 

[avacomputers]

Really blow their minds and ask them where in the New Testament it says non-believers are going to suffer eternal damnation.

It doesn't.

Oh but it does.

 

[HalfFrozen]

No, no I do not.

And I am a proud Atheist.