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Evo blowing past the normal 30 FPS!

KAuss said:
The speed is a factor... That's why benchmark tests on the EVO suck...

That's like your end result 1/4 time are the suck... Cause your 500HP Ferrari can't hit a trap speed past 65MPH...

I still don't see where this is coming from... 65MPH is still plenty fast... And highway travel safe... Still, that is not what a Ferrari was built for...

There are a TON of phones that can do 30FPS... None of which is a flagship phone... Is that remotely clear where the problem is?

In the examples of games with 30FPS... Games like 3D Homerun battle where extra frames would give you a better reading on the pitch... How does that not translate to better gaming results? I just don't figure...

You have to understand frame rate is a measurable thing, it is n't "smoothness" which is a subjective term...

Wind noise is "subjective" although "can be" measured in dB if needed...

MPH is a measurable term...

I paid for a 1ghz phone (500hp Ferrari), and expect it to play games at >30FPS... (>60MPH)...

How can you fit wind noise in that sentence? I'm just boggled...

P.S. I'm not mad or nothing, I just like a good healthy debate...
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Smoothness is exactly what FPS is, or at least how you see evidence of lack of it. But both are speed related. It has ZERO to do with the actual speed of processing on the phone which is true speed.

So you are telling me that the Droid X, Iphone etc. load pages, apps, widgets, camera, videos 2x faster than the evo?

Smoothness is a sign of speed, how fast the screen can adapt to what's happening so there is no blur. Screen adaptation speed and overall speed are two completely different concepts and the processing speed is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important that FPS.

Maybe you can draw an analogy to traction or something, but the primary force driving the speed of a phone is the processor (engine) and as long as the engine moves at speed, the car can reach it's top speed. FPS is not that, it's more of how cleanly the car reaches top speed. You cannot argue that processing speed is the primary ingredient to a phones performance.

How about this:

If the processor was slow, the FPS wouldn't have any problem keeping up. In this case the Ferrari has the 500 hp engine but the chassis reinforcement of a Civic so when you floor the gas, the unreinforced chassis can't keep up with the hp of the engine so it flexes and sways can't keep up with the responsiveness of the engine. You can still reach top speed but the car will be shaky at top speed because it's not sturdy.

This almost exactly mirrors what FPS does to cripple the phone. It can move fast, but the screen can't keep up with it and therefore exhibits lag or hesitation in responsiveness.

I don't think I can explain it better, though there may be a better analogy. But FPS is definitely not like going 65 mph.


The ONLY reason the EVO is so far behind in the benchmark testing is because the benchmark testing actually counts FPS. The speed of actual processes is negligible.
 
Look i am neutral on the FPS debate that it seems like people are having. I have seen people throwing insults back and forth. I have watched these debates get turned into car, tv, computer games, ect analogies. I am not looking to act childish in any way with fellow EVO owners. I understand that there is a group of angry evo owners both here and at XDA that have taken on the mission or purpose to mention in every thread they can post in about the 30 FPS issue they are having. It seems like if someone post a positive EVO reaction the next post will become about the 30 FPS issue. I think its important to realize that not everyone shares in the passion for FPS are some. You can post 1000 times about it and it wont matter to most. People are either going to care right away or they are not at all. Spamming every post with negativity wont make them one of your soldiers that will hound HTC for you and your cause. I am not saying you are wrong for caring. And maybe your caring will mean something to all future EVO owners if HTC raises the FPS.

I think a Poll may help in determining how big of a problem this is for most of us who are using this forum.

I have only done a little bit of research into the issue to see if I feel it really matter that much. I came across a little information from an iphone developers blog where they mention that games should be kept at 30fps in order to avoid choppy game play. Their logic behind this was the cpu would run choppy if your game is designed at 60fps. They say 30fps with smooth playback is better than stuttering at 60fps since asking a phones cpu to run smooth 60 fps is asking too much. Take it for what its worth. But the iphone is always used as the benchmark for smoothness.

Also a poster on here pointed to video game consoles running some really graphical games with a max frame of 30. That seems somewhat compelling also.

Then we have 3d game benchmarks where the benchmark is only running at 14fps with an overclocked EVO and no limit on the fps.
It sure seems like even if the frames per second was lifted then the cpu would still limit the fps with performance. The only benchmark that was running at over 30 was a pong style bouncy ball.

I know people will say its not just gaming. Its the UI that stutters because of the 30fps cap. But i am not really sure how many can tell the difference to the point they feel the need to try and turn every post into a gripe session about 30fps.

Lets keep the 30fps talk in the right threads. Not spread everywhere. I dont think it helps anything or anyone to keep beating that dead horse.
 
Even if there wasn't a big difference between 30 and 60fps (and there is), that does NOT excuse HTC's behavior and their downright lies about the issue.

I am keeping my evo because I have faith in the xda developers, but I am NEVER buying an HTC phone again.

And I laugh when I see these internet sooth-sayers claiming that 30fps is fine. Its stockholm-syndrome at its finest ;)
 
tmaxey1 said:
Lets keep the 30fps talk in the right threads. Not spread everywhere. I dont think it helps anything or anyone to keep beating that dead horse.
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Unfortunately, the only way to get this fixed and change HTC's behavior is to raise awareness. The more people that know, the more that complain. The more that complain, the more likely HTC will do something about it.

If you aren't affected because it just doesn't bother you, then avoid the conversation, there are hundreds of threads to chose from. Why do you presume a moderator's role here? What next? Limit the number of Innocase or battery threads?
 
jmxp69 said:
Multitouch comparison:

YouTube - EVO Multi-touch comparison
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This still has very little to do with everyday functionality that would affect most people. You swipe up and down on the browser/app drawer/contacts/menus etc. and left right on browser home pages. Most people cannot discern the millisecond difference without a multitouch to show them what's happening. This is not a major performance issue and will have little relevance to most people. Still only really applicable to gaming.


I think it's best left at "HTC, shutup with the lies and let the phone do what it's capable of".
 
great job on the test. does this program support two fingers? if so, how would it fare w and w/o the FPS cap?
 
As I've read through some of the comments of those opting to ignore performance impact of this cap, I was reminded of one of the funniest movie scenes ever:

From: Black Knight (Monty Python) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arthur fights the Black Knight and after a short battle, the Knight's left arm is severed. The Knight refuses to stand aside, insisting "'Tis but a scratch, I've had worse," and fights on. Next his right arm with his sword is removed but he still does not concede. With the Knight totally disarmed, Arthur assumes the fight is over and kneels to pray. The Black Knight interrupts Arthur's prayer by kicking him in the side of the head accusing him of cowardice. When Arthur points out the Black Knight's injuries, the Knight insists "it's just a flesh wound!" and continues to kick. Arthur chops off one of the Knight's legs. The Knight still won't admit defeat. Arthur is extremely annoyed at The Black Knight's persistence and angrily asks "are you going to bleed on me?" The Black Knight replies by saying, "I'm invincible!" Arthur finally cuts off the other leg and the Black Knight finally offers to "call it a draw."
Click to expand...
As I've said previously, if you chose to ignore ("I'm invincible") the patently obvious and measured via objective and subjective demonstrations handicapped phone ("it's merely a flesh wound") you paid top $$ for and pay a "premium experience fee" for, move along ("let's call it a draw"), there's nothing to see here.

Not me, I'm going to keep complaining and keep posting to forums, and keep making noise until HTC uncaps my phone or gives up the (GPL) source so we can fix it ourselves.
 
heavychevy said:
Smoothness is exactly what FPS is, or at least how you see evidence of lack of it. But both are speed related. It has ZERO to do with the actual speed of processing on the phone which is true speed.

So you are telling me that the Droid X, Iphone etc. load pages, apps, widgets, camera, videos 2x faster than the evo?

Smoothness is a sign of speed, how fast the screen can adapt to what's happening so there is no blur. Screen adaptation speed and overall speed are two completely different concepts and the processing speed is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important that FPS.

Maybe you can draw an analogy to traction or something, but the primary force driving the speed of a phone is the processor (engine) and as long as the engine moves at speed, the car can reach it's top speed. FPS is not that, it's more of how cleanly the car reaches top speed. You cannot argue that processing speed is the primary ingredient to a phones performance.

How about this:

If the processor was slow, the FPS wouldn't have any problem keeping up. In this case the Ferrari has the 500 hp engine but the chassis reinforcement of a Civic so when you floor the gas, the unreinforced chassis can't keep up with the hp of the engine so it flexes and sways can't keep up with the responsiveness of the engine. You can still reach top speed but the car will be shaky at top speed because it's not sturdy.

This almost exactly mirrors what FPS does to cripple the phone. It can move fast, but the screen can't keep up with it and therefore exhibits lag or hesitation in responsiveness.

I don't think I can explain it better, though there may be a better analogy. But FPS is definitely not like going 65 mph.


The ONLY reason the EVO is so far behind in the benchmark testing is because the benchmark testing actually counts FPS. The speed of actual processes is negligible.
Click to expand...

Unlike a car, the performance of a smart phone is based on two things. Load times and how fast it is transfered on screen. Its almost like engine and transmission.

You dont measure a car's performance purely on HP figures. If your phone does nothing but load things without a display i'd agree with you in a heart beat. However for that power to be put to use you need to transfer that power to the transmission.

Thats what the processor does to the gpu to display pictures.

The speed in which frames get displayed in one second in screen terms is equal to distance traveled in one second in car terms. Both of which happen in one second but one obvioulsy does more processing than the other.

I have been building computers for 15 years now and you'd be caught dead to put nothing but the best cpus in them without a good gpu. Why? Cause of bottle neck.

You can load 60 pictures and if they were set to all display in one second, tell me what happens to the phone that has a cap of 30 fps? Maybe take 2 seconds to finish the job or only display 30 of the 60 pictures? Neither of which is acceptable...

If the latter was done. Then I expect to load twice as fast cause it is displaying less context... It is not fair for one phone to display 60 pics to load as fast as one that did half the work.

If you took fps to the extreme and decreased to 1 / second how would that work out?
 
The multitouch comparison really shows the difference. When I first got my Evo, I noticed the lag especially after comparing it to my iPod touch.
 
I wonder if this is some part of the reason why the typing is not as fast as my fingers would go...
 
KAuss said:
They even said the 720P is in 24FPS only RIGHT OUT THE GATE!!!

So people like me who bought the phone and seeing what the results ended up being aren't too displeased... Noah even did a side by side of the three latest phone during his video tests...

Although the EVO camera came out way sharper, I found the contrast to be way out of whack... You can't see Noah's eyes in his own forehead shadow, nor the trees with any detail...
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I haven't messed with the settings too much... but they are definitely out of whack. My Nexus One takes much better quality pictures in daylight, lowlight, and even pitch black with it's single led compared to the evo's dual led flash.
I think it can be fixed though through different settings.
 
Some of you guys still dont understand the difference. A very simple example is to read a web page while scrolling with your finger. It is not a nice experience, being choppy, however with a faster paint rate the scrolling becomes much smoother allowing for much better recognition.

All these analogies with horsepower etc just serve to obfuscate the situation. This isn't simply a power v speed, lag or anything similar problem.

However, iff you want one, imo this is more applicable

Say you have a bump on the tread of the tires on your beloved zo6, doesn't matter what speed you can go, you are always going to feel that vibration. Well those bumps translating into vibration equate to the missing frames due to the 30fps cap.
 
jmxp69 said:
Unfortunately, the only way to get this fixed and change HTC's behavior is to raise awareness. The more people that know, the more that complain. The more that complain, the more likely HTC will do something about it.

If you aren't affected because it just doesn't bother you, then avoid the conversation, there are hundreds of threads to chose from. Why do you presume a moderator's role here? What next? Limit the number of Innocase or battery threads?
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How does a person avoid the conversation when a few people are attempting to bring it to every thread. I read a thread about how happy a person was with their evo and the very first reply to is was about the 30fps cap. We cant avoid the whinning because it is being shoved down everyones throats. If your goal is to upset a bunch of people that really dont care in hopes they will cry loud enough to HTC to make a change, you are fighting a failing mission. Over 99% of the people that care about the phone enough to even come to a message board wont even care enough about 30fps caps to force htc to fix it.

It was never said to limit the number of 30fps threads. It was suggested to keep the whinning about the 30fps cap into the threads about the cap. Not spreading the negativity all over the entire board. Read my entire post and try to digest what is being said before you make assumptions.

Now i do understand the anger over HTC capping the phone and then making up something about the HDMI port being the reason. I dont know if that is the reason and i dont know how much the battery life will change if they lifted the cap. Maybe not at all. I would like the smoothest experience possible with my phone. I want the perfect phone as well. We all do. I want a battery that last as long as the iphone's battery. I want a camera as good as the iphone 4 camera. But i dont think it is needed to post this complaint in every thread that i read. I will email htc about it. I would wish everyone would. Make the phone record 30fps. But i realize that its not the top priority of HTC and it wont be no matter how many threads i spam with this complaint. It wont upset people enough to take action. It will just annoy them that i am whinning in their threads.
 
RickJ said:
Some of you guys still dont understand the difference. A very simple example is to read a web page while scrolling with your finger. It is not a nice experience, being choppy, however with a faster paint rate the scrolling becomes much smoother allowing for much better recognition.

All these analogies with horsepower etc just serve to obfuscate the situation. This isn't simply a power v speed, lag or anything similar problem.

However, iff you want one, imo this is more applicable

Say you have a bump on the tread of the tires on your beloved zo6, doesn't matter what speed you can go, you are always going to feel that vibration. Well those bumps translating into vibration equate to the missing frames due to the 30fps cap.
Click to expand...

That analogy is pretty fail... LOL... Just jerking your chain...

That's more a metaphor than an analogy...
 
I can tell you for a fact that Snapdragon has slightly higher potential than that. My Acer Liquid overclocked to 998MHz (stock Evo clockspeed) gets nenamark scores of 16.7 without sound and 16.5 with and gears scores between 54-59 consistently. There is speculation that Acer overclocked Snapdragon GPU on Eclair update but did not publish it.

Sent from my Liquid using Tapatalk
 
tmaxey1 said:
How does a person avoid the conversation
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You just don't click the links that say anything about EVO and fps. It's not difficult to do. Kind of how I when I review this thread, I look for names in the left column and just bypass what River enters.
 
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